Rafael Benitez

[Gwlad]

6 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

How can the league schedule a derby game barely 48 hours after the previous game? That's unreasonable.

Because we are Everton playing a top 6 side.

[Cornish Steve]

9 hours ago, MikeO said:

In which case I propose a wager; I think Liverpool will finish the season higher in the league than Brentford but you apparently think otherwise, I'm not normally a betting man but this is too good an opportunity to miss. Name the stakes

I didn't suggest that Brentford would finish above Liverpool but that Brentford would be more difficult for us to beat than Liverpool. Admittedly, the difference is subtle.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/everton-david-moyes-21876520

Still amazes me how underrated Moyes was by some, I said at the time it was going to be difficult for us to adequately replace him and so it’s proved 

Would loved to have seen what he could have done with money to spend at Everton but glad we have finally got a training ground manager again at last

[Hafnia]

1 hour ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/everton-david-moyes-21876520

Still amazes me how underrated Moyes was by some, I said at the time it was going to be difficult for us to adequately replace him and so it’s proved 

Would loved to have seen what he could have done with money to spend at Everton but glad we have finally got a training ground manager again at last

He wasn't underrated..... He got the Man United job and proved that in fact he was overrated in the sense of "give him money and better players".  Mistook Robin Van Persie for Duncan Ferguson and tried 40 crosses a match to him.   If Moyes was our manager in a time of the moshiri millions Vs the Kenwright coins then he is highly unlikely to have got the gig he got - he has always struggled with the big players that big money seems to attract. 

A solid manager yep no question.  Makes a team that at the bare minimum couldn't be questioned on organisation, effort or attitude as they are his pre requisites.

Bluntly put, when it got to the part where you look to add a trophy to the honours list or play a top side at their place - he is a bottle job. 

Ideal manager for us at a time where financial and corporate mismanagement meant that 7th place was a great position for a club like Everton, and when we had to turn up with penknives to gunfights.

We made him an extremely rich man but ultimately his parting shots to us was to try and buy our players on the cheap and kick sand in our faces. 

Hes at the right club for him.  Benitez would find and lose him tactically but both are similar in terms of discipline and demand. 

[Bill]

You are a very hard person to please Hafnia,  since 2004 his league positions were 4-11-6-5-5-8-7-7-6, I think most Evertonians would have been very happy with those positions in the the years since he left.

We've had Roberto Martinez, Marco Silva, Ronald Koeman, Carlo Ancelotti, supposedly some of the best managers in the world, and if any of them had a record as good as that they would still be here and we would all be very gratefull.

Overated or underated doesn't matter to me,  but for the job he did while he was here when the club was in heavy debt and cash strapped, he deserves an awful lot of respect.

[barryj]

8 minutes ago, Bill said:

You are a very hard person to please Hafnia,  since 2004 his league positions were 4-11-6-5-5-8-7-7-6, I think most Evertonians would have been very happy with those positions in the the years since he left.

We've had Roberto Martinez, Marco Silva, Ronald Koeman, Carlo Ancelotti, supposedly some of the best managers in the world, and if any of them had a record as good as that they would still be here and we would all be very gratefull.

Overated or underated doesn't matter to me,  but for the job he did while he was here when the club was in heavy debt and cash strapped, he deserves an awful lot of respect.

I agree. He’s only ever had money at Man U and he was following arguably the greatest manager of all time. If you look at Moyes record at Man U it wasn’t to dissimilar to the ones that followed him. There is no way Ole would still be in a job if he took on when Moyes did. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

6 hours ago, Hafnia said:

He wasn't underrated..... He got the Man United job and proved that in fact he was overrated in the sense of "give him money and better players".  Mistook Robin Van Persie for Duncan Ferguson and tried 40 crosses a match to him.   If Moyes was our manager in a time of the moshiri millions Vs the Kenwright coins then he is highly unlikely to have got the gig he got - he has always struggled with the big players that big money seems to attract. 

A solid manager yep no question.  Makes a team that at the bare minimum couldn't be questioned on organisation, effort or attitude as they are his pre requisites.

Bluntly put, when it got to the part where you look to add a trophy to the honours list or play a top side at their place - he is a bottle job. 

Ideal manager for us at a time where financial and corporate mismanagement meant that 7th place was a great position for a club like Everton, and when we had to turn up with penknives to gunfights.

We made him an extremely rich man but ultimately his parting shots to us was to try and buy our players on the cheap and kick sand in our faces. 

Hes at the right club for him.  Benitez would find and lose him tactically but both are similar in terms of discipline and demand. 

Thanks for emphasising my point

[Hafnia]

6 hours ago, Bill said:

You are a very hard person to please Hafnia,  since 2004 his league positions were 4-11-6-5-5-8-7-7-6, I think most Evertonians would have been very happy with those positions in the the years since he left.

We've had Roberto Martinez, Marco Silva, Ronald Koeman, Carlo Ancelotti, supposedly some of the best managers in the world, and if any of them had a record as good as that they would still be here and we would all be very gratefull.

Overated or underated doesn't matter to me,  but for the job he did while he was here when the club was in heavy debt and cash strapped, he deserves an awful lot of respect.

I appreciate that Moyes is a solid manager but he's not won anything and nor have we.

Fact of the matter is this - he had a golden chance to deliver the fa cup and completely bottled it.  He bottled the semi final against Liverpool too. 

I'm not here to say he shit, I'm here to say hes not great. He's a solid manager nothing more nothing less. 

 

[Hafnia]

6 hours ago, barryj said:

I agree. He’s only ever had money at Man U and he was following arguably the greatest manager of all time. If you look at Moyes record at Man U it wasn’t to dissimilar to the ones that followed him. There is no way Ole would still be in a job if he took on when Moyes did. 

Moyes took over a team that won the league.... Ole took over a team that got a manager sacked. 

[MikeO]

12 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

I didn't suggest that Brentford would finish above Liverpool but that Brentford would be more difficult for us to beat than Liverpool. Admittedly, the difference is subtle.

In which case can I perhaps interest you in a small wager on a round of golf one day?

[Hafnia]

1 hour ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Thanks for emphasising my point

He won nothing.  Joe Royle is the last trophy winner we had and he took over in similar circumstances. 

Moyes and Everton just became solid also rans.  I lay the blame more at the mismanagement of the club by bill and co but that probably won't sit right with you either.

Moyes was the 4th highest paid manager in world football by our cash strapped club ......

[Cornish Steve]

18 minutes ago, MikeO said:

In which case can I perhaps interest you in a small wager on a round of golf one day?

Can I bet on you winning?

[Cornish Steve]

6 hours ago, Bill said:

You are a very hard person to please Hafnia,  since 2004 his league positions were 4-11-6-5-5-8-7-7-6, I think most Evertonians would have been very happy with those positions in the the years since he left.

We've had Roberto Martinez, Marco Silva, Ronald Koeman, Carlo Ancelotti, supposedly some of the best managers in the world, and if any of them had a record as good as that they would still be here and we would all be very gratefull.

Overated or underated doesn't matter to me,  but for the job he did while he was here when the club was in heavy debt and cash strapped, he deserves an awful lot of respect.

Ancelotti's record was better than Moyes'. Martinez' record was better than Moyes'.

[Bill]

4 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

Ancelotti's record was better than Moyes'. Martinez' record was better than Moyes'.

Your talking rubbish Steve, Unsworths record is better than them all but he was only Manager for one game. There's no comparison if they are not manager for a similar period.  Ancelotti finished 10th and 12 in his two years here, Martinez finished 5th in his first season (Moyes team) then finished 11th and then got the sack the following season when they were 14th.

Like I said Steve, Moyes deserves a bit more respect.

[Bill]

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/fc-everton/platzierungen/verein/29

[Cornish Steve]

39 minutes ago, Bill said:

Your talking rubbish Steve, Unsworths record is better than them all but he was only Manager for one game. There's no comparison if they are not manager for a similar period.  Ancelotti finished 10th and 12 in his two years here, Martinez finished 5th in his first season (Moyes team) then finished 11th and then got the sack the following season when they were 14th.

Like I said Steve, Moyes deserves a bit more respect.

You can dispute all you like, Bill, but both Ancelotti and Martinez had better win records than David Moyes. We may not like them sometimes, but facts are facts.

[StevO]

49 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

You can dispute all you like, Bill, but both Ancelotti and Martinez had better win records than David Moyes. We may not like them sometimes, but facts are facts.

They may have, but neither of them started with the team Moyes started with. Moyes also didn’t have the resources they had (money). It’s not quite comparing apples to apples. Maybe nice fresh red apples against mouldy green apples. 

[Aidan]

7 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

You can dispute all you like, Bill, but both Ancelotti and Martinez had better win records than David Moyes. We may not like them sometimes, but facts are facts.

Ancelotti - 1.59

Martinez - 1.56

Moyes - 1.53

Koeman - 1.43

Silva - 1.4

 

Interstingly enough here is how the Points per game tallys up. Carlo on top. Silva all the way at the bottom (obviously his last 2 seasons dented that massively). Moyes did a fantastic job with the resources he had. Koeman absolutely shafted us - his return for the money spent was awful and never took any responsibility.
 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

I find it a bit ludicrous that people are jumping on points per game stats without putting any context whatsoever to them

Moyes took over an ageing side that were perennial relegation battlers and turned them into regular European contenders and he did it without money so it took him time to build his side and it’s those first few seasons that dented his points per game stats but it’s undeniable that he improved us and took us forward

Martinez reaped the benefits of that and was given a ton of cash to add to an already very good squad and ultimately took us backwards, he was the start of the rot

Carlo admittedly also took over a poor side but he had plenty of good young quality in the squad and he was also afforded plenty of cash to turn it around but couldn’t rise above mid table. I don’t think his ‘just go out and play’ approach was getting the best out of the players . Which brings me back to the point of my original post Moyes was the polar opposite he was meticulous in his preparation and left no stone unturned and spent his time on the training ground actually coaching the players and getting his idea across and I think Benitez is cut from the same cloth which for me is a welcome change 

Do the people who are clinging to these stats honestly think if Martinez or Carlo had been at the club 10 years that their stats would still compare favourably with Moyes?

 

[Hafnia]

8 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

I find it a bit ludicrous that people are jumping on points per game stats without putting any context whatsoever to them

Moyes took over an ageing side that were perennial relegation battlers and turned them into regular European contenders and he did it without money so it took him time to build his side and it’s those first few seasons that dented his points per game stats but it’s undeniable that he improved us and took us forward

Martinez reaped the benefits of that and was given a ton of cash to add to an already very good squad and ultimately took us backwards, he was the start of the rot

Carlo admittedly also took over a poor side but he had plenty of good young quality in the squad and he was also afforded plenty of cash to turn it around but couldn’t rise above mid table. I don’t think his ‘just go out and play’ approach was getting the best out of the players . Which brings me back to the point of my original post Moyes was the polar opposite he was meticulous in his preparation and left no stone unturned and spent his time on the training ground actually coaching the players and getting his idea across and I think Benitez is cut from the same cloth which for me is a welcome change 

Do the people who are clinging to these stats honestly think if Martinez or Carlo had been at the club 10 years that their stats would still compare favourably with Moyes?

 

Let it go Dunc, what do you want Everton fans to say about him?, he had 10 years of continuity, inherited the best 17 year old in world football. He was here 10 years, won nothing, when he came close like the cup final or semi's he shit himself like Southgate.

He did ok.... That's it, he did ok.  Our predicament suited him down to the ground.  If he was in Martinez shoes or anyone elses with money I highly doubt the outcome would be different. His transfer record when he had a decent amount to spend was poor.  How long can he dine out on taking over a shit team? 

He ended his legacy of being a long tenured non trophy winning manager by completely taking the piss out of us as Man United manager.  Absolutely embarrassing his behaviour.  Had all the top players in world football to go for yet behaved like a pissy teenager because we wouldn't sell Baines to him on the cheap.

He's not getting a statue mate.  Joe Royle achieved far more in a far shorter period.

 

[Romey 1878]

Not getting into it on either side, the fella has been gone a long time now so can you just let it go? Maybe talk about our actual manager (I won't be getting into that either ) right now?

[Aidan]

34 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

I find it a bit ludicrous that people are jumping on points per game stats without putting any context whatsoever to them

Moyes took over an ageing side that were perennial relegation battlers and turned them into regular European contenders and he did it without money so it took him time to build his side and it’s those first few seasons that dented his points per game stats but it’s undeniable that he improved us and took us forward

Martinez reaped the benefits of that and was given a ton of cash to add to an already very good squad and ultimately took us backwards, he was the start of the rot

Carlo admittedly also took over a poor side but he had plenty of good young quality in the squad and he was also afforded plenty of cash to turn it around but couldn’t rise above mid table. I don’t think his ‘just go out and play’ approach was getting the best out of the players . Which brings me back to the point of my original post Moyes was the polar opposite he was meticulous in his preparation and left no stone unturned and spent his time on the training ground actually coaching the players and getting his idea across and I think Benitez is cut from the same cloth which for me is a welcome change 

Do the people who are clinging to these stats honestly think if Martinez or Carlo had been at the club 10 years that their stats would still compare favourably with Moyes?

 

I decided to give the points per game more out of interest. Not jumping to anything nor did I gave any real opinion on it, hence the lack of context. But thanks for your opinion.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

29 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Let it go Dunc, what do you want Everton fans to say about him?, he had 10 years of continuity, inherited the best 17 year old in world football. He was here 10 years, won nothing, when he came close like the cup final or semi's he shit himself like Southgate.

He did ok.... That's it, he did ok.  Our predicament suited him down to the ground.  If he was in Martinez shoes or anyone elses with money I highly doubt the outcome would be different. His transfer record when he had a decent amount to spend was poor.  How long can he dine out on taking over a shit team? 

He ended his legacy of being a long tenured non trophy winning manager by completely taking the piss out of us as Man United manager.  Absolutely embarrassing his behaviour.  Had all the top players in world football to go for yet behaved like a pissy teenager because we wouldn't sell Baines to him on the cheap.

He's not getting a statue mate.  Joe Royle achieved far more in a far shorter period.

 

I don’t want a statue nor did I want him back for the very reason you stated above as I’ve said before so I have let it go already. I will say yet again my point was it’s good that we have a manager in Benitez who actually coaches the players, something we have not had since Moyes who I believe did a much better job at Everton than you give him credit for

 

 

 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

25 minutes ago, Aidan said:

I decided to give the points per game more out of interest. Not jumping to anything nor did I gave any real opinion on it, hence the lack of context. But thanks for your opinion.

I don’t believe I mentioned or quoted you anywhere but your welcome

[Hafnia]

8 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

I don’t want a statue nor did I want him back for the very reason you stated above as I’ve said before so I have let it go already. I will say yet again my point was it’s good that we have a manager in Benitez who actually coaches the players, something we have not had since Moyes who I believe did a much better job at Everton than you give him credit for

 

 

 

 "much better job than I give him credit for"....... I've said he was a solid manager who did a decent job... He was ok. 

"Much better" than decent, seems to indicate he won something in his 10 years.  He didn't.    His performances and set ups against top 4 sides and in derbies was a piss take. 

I'm not understanding where this "underrated" nonsense comes from.  He moved to a club who could attract any player to add to a title winning side and he bought fellaini. 

I enjoyed Martinez year far more than any of Moyes years... Ah yes Moyes telepathically coached the defenders that year. 

[Bill]

Benitez's win stats beats them all at the moment, but as I said previously let's check them against Moyseys when he's been here 10 years.  

Yeah that's me done Mark let's get back on the thread.

[Palfy]

For me Moyes was a decent manager not the best for sure, but his ability in the transfer market was what impressed me the most his wheeling and dealing helped keep a cash strapped club in the mix for years which shouldn’t be over looked. We may not have won anything in his time here but would any manager achieved more if they had the hand he had to play with, and I would say very unlikely, those who have followed him have so far with more resources have not done so. When he was with us we were considered the best of the rest nationally every season he was here, but  not so since he left. 

[Matt]

10 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

You can dispute all you like, Bill, but both Ancelotti and Martinez had better win records than David Moyes. We may not like them sometimes, but facts are facts.

Not really, because you can't compare a couple of seasons vs 10. Or the other circumstances mentioned. 1.5 is still 1.5, even if you go to the next decimal. Which is utterly meaningless in any case. 

But since we're playing with "facts"  Moyes was more successful than both Martinez and Ancelotti as we finished 4th under him. Cherry pick all you like mate, but your facts are not representative of the whole picture. 

[Cornish Steve]

15 hours ago, Aidan said:

Ancelotti - 1.59

Martinez - 1.56

Moyes - 1.53

Koeman - 1.43

Silva - 1.4

 

Interstingly enough here is how the Points per game tallys up. Carlo on top. Silva all the way at the bottom (obviously his last 2 seasons dented that massively). Moyes did a fantastic job with the resources he had. Koeman absolutely shafted us - his return for the money spent was awful and never took any responsibility.
 

Martinez has pretty much the same resources available as Moyes. The difference, I think, is consistency - although it's difficult to gauge over just three seasons.

[Cornish Steve]

Disappointed with Benitez' team selection and (mostly lack of) substitutions today. It's criminal that Rondon started, let alone played 90 minutes. When will Dobbin ever get to start? Also, Gordon deserved to start over Iwobi. When we're chasing a game, why were subs unused?