Rafael Benitez

[StevO]

1 hour ago, Cornish Steve said:

Martinez has pretty much the same resources available as Moyes. The difference, I think, is consistency - although it's difficult to gauge over just three seasons.

If you remove the first five years of Moyes time at the club what is his points per game ratio then? After he had cleared out the dross he started with. Martinez got to take over what was a very good team that Moyes built. 
 

As has already been quoted, Martinez and Carlo have better points per game, but neither got us to 4th place. Moyes did. He also got us to the FA cup final and the quarter final (I think) of the Europa league. 

[Hafnia]

10 hours ago, StevO said:

If you remove the first five years of Moyes time at the club what is his points per game ratio then? After he had cleared out the dross he started with. Martinez got to take over what was a very good team that Moyes built. 
 

As has already been quoted, Martinez and Carlo have better points per game, but neither got us to 4th place. Moyes did. He also got us to the FA cup final and the quarter final (I think) of the Europa league. 

He finished 7th in his second year and then 17th in his 3rd year.......

You could argue that he had a team good enough to finish 7th and under normal circumstances would be sacked for his 3rd year.  

[Hafnia]

2 hours ago, RPG said:

The season that we finished 4th under Moyes was a very strange season. We got spanked 7-0 (if memory serves) at Arsenal and still managed to finish 4th but with a negative goal difference.

It was very weird, we literally staggered over the line.  Teams around us blew it more than we did. 

[MikeO]

10 hours ago, StevO said:

If you remove the first five years of Moyes time at the club what is his points per game ratio then?

Just short of 1.59.

[FairWooney]

12 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

Disappointed with Benitez' team selection and (mostly lack of) substitutions today. It's criminal that Rondon started, let alone played 90 minutes. When will Dobbin ever get to start? Also, Gordon deserved to start over Iwobi. When we're chasing a game, why were subs unused?

agree with lack of changes and Gordon should have started ahead of Iwobi but on Dobbin I don't think you could say he should have started ahead of Rondon without having been at the training ground on a regular basis.  Rafa will know how the two are getting on, he will obviously favour Rondon having signed him and being an experienced player but he must feel Dobbin isn't looking quite ready to have not even brought him on.

Personally I think he should have got on with 10 minutes or so to go as Rondon was clearly struggling fitness wise at that point.

Gordon after last match should have started and even if not should have come on much earlier.

Hopefully we have DCL and Richarlison back next week to give us some attacking options.

[StevO]

1 hour ago, MikeO said:

Just short of 1.59.

Pretty decent after a good period of stability then. Who’d have thought it. 

[Hafnia]

30 minutes ago, StevO said:

Pretty decent after a good period of stability then. Who’d have thought it. 

Depends how you look at it.  His treated points per game matched Ancellottis which warranted 10th place....

All very meh in my book.  Great if you are happy for Everton to be West Ham 

All this 7th place is great etc is just weird.  I understand we were hamstrung by the ownership of Kenwright and Green but worse teams than us came closer to winning a trophy.  The final against Chelsea was a complete bottle job, one more goal in that heat and Chelsea would have folded after winning the league ...... He completely froze.  Allowed hibbert to get targeted after getting booked and malouda crossed for Drogba to equalise..... Formality after that. 

[Cornish Steve]

3 hours ago, StevO said:

Pretty decent after a good period of stability then. Who’d have thought it. 

It was a different era back then. Martinez' record over his three years maps quite closely to Moyes' record - although not quite as extreme - but he was fired. If Moyes had been appointed in our era, he wouldn't have made if through his third season. This is a shame, because some good long-term managers are being sacrificed in the name of short-term success.

[StevO]

4 hours ago, Hafnia said:

Depends how you look at it.  His treated points per game matched Ancellottis which warranted 10th place....

All very meh in my book.  Great if you are happy for Everton to be West Ham 

All this 7th place is great etc is just weird.  I understand we were hamstrung by the ownership of Kenwright and Green but worse teams than us came closer to winning a trophy.  The final against Chelsea was a complete bottle job, one more goal in that heat and Chelsea would have folded after winning the league ...... He completely froze.  Allowed hibbert to get targeted after getting booked and malouda crossed for Drogba to equalise..... Formality after that. 

Never have I ever said 7th is great. 
Nothing but respect for the job Moyes did at Everton, after he walked he was just another manager so not going to be too offended by him at United. 
No time for Kenwright and his bullshit. 

[StevO]

1 hour ago, Cornish Steve said:

It was a different era back then. Martinez' record over his three years maps quite closely to Moyes' record - although not quite as extreme - but he was fired. If Moyes had been appointed in our era, he wouldn't have made if through his third season. This is a shame, because some good long-term managers are being sacrificed in the name of short-term success.

In our era? It wasn’t the 80s. He left eight seasons ago. Martinez followed him, so different era or same era?

If we didn’t have his stability during the time he was here things might have been a lot different. Yeah we might have got a manager who worked a miracle and won us the league, doubt it though. 

[Palfy]

3 hours ago, StevO said:

4 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

In our era? It wasn’t the 80s. He left eight seasons ago. Martinez followed him, so different era or same era?

Doesn’t time fly when you’re having fun  

[Hafnia]

3 hours ago, StevO said:

Never have I ever said 7th is great. 
Nothing but respect for the job Moyes did at Everton, after he walked he was just another manager so not going to be too offended by him at United. 
No time for Kenwright and his bullshit. 

I know you never said that but there is a general theme in the thread of praising one manager more than another because they got a better nowhere place is depressing.

At least with Martinez we dared to dream for a year.  

[StevO]

2 hours ago, Hafnia said:

I know you never said that but there is a general theme in the thread of praising one manager more than another because they got a better nowhere place is depressing.

At least with Martinez we dared to dream for a year.  

I would take the Moyes years and the stability we had over anything we have had since he left. Apart from that one year under Martinez we have been a massive disappointment (autocorrect wanted me to put disaster and maybe it was right) year after year. 
 

I know one thing, Rafa didn’t exactly make me dare to dream yesterday.

[plaidharper]

Job just got a lot harder with Doucoure out. 

It's Davies, Gbamin, or Onyango as a replacement (with Delph and Gomes out injured).  That or changes the system.

Let's see what he comes up with.

[Bailey]

33 minutes ago, plaidharper said:

Job just got a lot harder with Doucoure out. 

It's Davies, Gbamin, or Onyango as a replacement (with Delph and Gomes out injured).  That or changes the system.

Let's see what he comes up with.

Even if he changes the system, he will still need two central midfielders.

I can see us going to a three-man midfield because Doucoure covers that much ground that we aren't going to be able to replace him with just one player.

[Cornish Steve]

9 hours ago, RPG said:

Pickford

Coleman. Keane. Mina. Digne

Davies. Allan. Gbamin

Townsend. Richarlison. Gray

Assuming DCL not fit.

Front three all capable of tracking back and helping the midfield.

We were already very dependent on Allan. For the rest of this calendar year, he's perhaps the most important player for us on the field.

[Romey 1878]

5 hours ago, RPG said:

I agree. If we were to lose Allan as well we would be in real trouble. Not sure how many bookings he has. A terrible shame to lose so many starters to injury but it does highlight the need to improve strength in depth. I wonder what Rafa will do in January?

I don't think there's a lot that can be done, even with James' wages being gone giving us a bit more wiggle room.

Whatever he does lets hope it's more Gray and Townsend than Rondon though!

[London Blue]

I think this winters window we will be limited to loans. 

In the summer window we should be clear to spend again, although it will probably be the summer after that we will have full financial freedom.

[Hafnia]

1 hour ago, London Blue said:

I think this winters window we will be limited to loans. 

In the summer window we should be clear to spend again, although it will probably be the summer after that we will have full financial freedom.

Why is that?  I'm genuinely unsure as to how we have been so hamstrung this year but after it we will be all systems go. 

Is it the TV money coming in and a full years stadium revenue? 

[London Blue]

10 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Why is that?  I'm genuinely unsure as to how we have been so hamstrung this year but after it we will be all systems go. 

Is it the TV money coming in and a full years stadium revenue? 

It's done over a 3 year period, so next year our room will be greater as lots of high transfers from early splurge will be off the books.

[Hafnia]

2 hours ago, London Blue said:

It's done over a 3 year period, so next year our room will be greater as lots of high transfers from early splurge will be off the books.

Ah... Perfect. Cheers. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rafa-benitez-everton-moshiri-investment-21947224

[Isaiah]

Credible rumours circulating that Rafa's agent has been talking to Newcastle, who are preparing a "generous" compensation package to buy him out of his contract and bring him back to St James'. I don't doubt Rafa's commitment to his job here (and to be fair to him he has always been loyal to his clubs) but would his head be turned by the prospect of a blank cheque book at Newcastle and a fanbase that for whatever reason seems to adore him? 

 

[StevO]

5 minutes ago, Isaiah said:

Credible rumours circulating that Rafa's agent has been talking to Newcastle, who are preparing a "generous" compensation package to buy him out of his contract and bring him back to St James'. I don't doubt Rafa's commitment to his job here (and to be fair to him he has always been loyal to his clubs) but would his head be turned by the prospect of a blank cheque book at Newcastle and a fanbase that for whatever reason seems to adore him? 

 

The whole Newcastle thing is still laughable. Blank cheques to buy players who are willing to join the club at the bottom of the league? Are these really the type of player you want?

They also have to stay within FFP, so like us, go and blow a few hundred million on players at first and then when the pursestrings get tightened hope you didn’t make too many mistakes.

It just doesn’t seem anything other than a mercenaries paradise to me. 

[Cornish Steve]

25 minutes ago, Isaiah said:

Credible rumours circulating that Rafa's agent has been talking to Newcastle, who are preparing a "generous" compensation package to buy him out of his contract and bring him back to St James'. I don't doubt Rafa's commitment to his job here (and to be fair to him he has always been loyal to his clubs) but would his head be turned by the prospect of a blank cheque book at Newcastle and a fanbase that for whatever reason seems to adore him? 

 

I certainly hope so.

[Cornish Steve]

When Benitez was first mentioned as a possible manager, I made three comments: (i) His game tactics can sometimes be questionable; (ii) his substitutions are frequently bizarre; and (iii) he plays favorites. Frankly, we saw all three today.

I've read a lot of criticism about players not putting in the effort, but to me that's a symptom of players not knowing or understanding the manager's tactics. After all, these are largely the same players who faced United - plus Richarlison who appears desperate to get back to playing. This was no more evident than with Tom Davies, who started well but frankly seemed confused about his role as Benitez shouted new instructions.

What lay behind today's stupid substitutions? Pull off Gordon, arguably the most effective player on the field to that point? Iwobi for Gray, perhaps our player of the season to date? And no third substitute at a time when the game was screaming for a change?

As for favorites, I've tried to soften my tone on Rondon after being criticized for my earlier comments, but I can't hold back now. Rondon is Benitez's man, so the manager seems desperate to keep playing him. Why? He's not fit, not putting in the effort, and seems to have lost any sense of footballing intelligence or ability he ever had. When he's on the field, we're effectively playing without a striker. Why is not Dobbin on the field, or Whitaker? Why is a player who's winded after 30 minutes still on the field for the final whistle? There's no explanation other than playing favorites - combined with stubbornness.

Frankly, I'll be happy if Newcastle make a generous offer and steal Benitez. It won't be an easy transition, but it's clear this is not going well. And let's not blame it on the lack of spend - which was a ready-made excuse for poor performance from the outset.

[Isaiah]

I won't give too much of a shit if he goes but I hope we'll fleece the Saudis for the next 3 years' transfer budget if they really want him. They're going to be signing the likes of Raheem Sterling for 150 million in January so I figure they can send some of that oil cash our way.  

I have a feeing he'll go. Only a week ago he was talking about how he'd never really had a big transfer budget no matter where he's gone. The prospect of going to a place he's loved and which is now also the richest club in world football, dwarfing City and PSG, will I think be too much for him to turn down.  

[Hafnia]

7 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

When Benitez was first mentioned as a possible manager, I made three comments: (i) His game tactics can sometimes be questionable; (ii) his substitutions are frequently bizarre; and (iii) he plays favorites. Frankly, we saw all three today.

I've read a lot of criticism about players not putting in the effort, but to me that's a symptom of players not knowing or understanding the manager's tactics. After all, these are largely the same players who faced United - plus Richarlison who appears desperate to get back to playing. This was no more evident than with Tom Davies, who started well but frankly seemed confused about his role as Benitez shouted new instructions.

What lay behind today's stupid substitutions? Pull off Gordon, arguably the most effective player on the field to that point? Iwobi for Gray, perhaps our player of the season to date? And no third substitute at a time when the game was screaming for a change?

As for favorites, I've tried to soften my tone on Rondon after being criticized for my earlier comments, but I can't hold back now. Rondon is Benitez's man, so the manager seems desperate to keep playing him. Why? He's not fit, not putting in the effort, and seems to have lost any sense of footballing intelligence or ability he ever had. When he's on the field, we're effectively playing without a striker. Why is not Dobbin on the field, or Whitaker? Why is a player who's winded after 30 minutes still on the field for the final whistle? There's no explanation other than playing favorites - combined with stubbornness.

Frankly, I'll be happy if Newcastle make a generous offer and steal Benitez. It won't be an easy transition, but it's clear this is not going well. And let's not blame it on the lack of spend - which was a ready-made excuse for poor performance from the outset.

 

Looks like the gobshites on the pitch may have found another fallguy to hide behind eh.

 

[Formby]

7 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

What lay behind today's stupid substitutions? Pull off Gordon, arguably the most effective player on the field to that point? 

Richarlison came on and scored a few minutes later.

[Newty82]

1 hour ago, Formby said:

Richarlison came on and scored a few minutes later.

It's not about who came on, it's about who went off. Richie was absolutely the right player to come on. But Rondon stayed on?

Then the next one is about who comes on...Gray comes off for Iwobi. Why not Gbamin come on? Or Holgate? At this point we were 2-1 up. 13 minutes to go. Iwobi and Rondon have been our worst players in recent weeks. They've been shadows.

Rafa was starting to win me over and in some ways he still is. But his response to this is critical. It'll be interesting because from what I remember in the past of Rafa, he's very good at blaming others when things don't go to plan and becomes very confrontational. One of the reasons I wasn't keen.