Ifs, buts and Maybes

[Wall Writer]

On 15/03/2023 at 13:47, MikeO said:

Au contraire, there shouldn't be any apostrophes in it at all.

As it stands it reads "if is but is and maybe is".

Just to get this thread back on topic.... In the title, shouldn't there be a capital B in buts?

[Matt]

11 minutes ago, London Blue said:

With Palace sacking Viera will they get a new manager bounce?

Viera seemed to be a popular manager with the squad, from a selfish viewpoint I hope they finish below us but sad that Viera has gone. 

No black managers in the PL is shocking, so much needs to be done on that front, but that's for another thread.

But what? Handing out jobs based on skin colour isn't the way forward. I would think opportunities needs to come from lower leagues to allow the manager to prove himself. 

[Romey 1878]

17 minutes ago, Wall Writer said:

Just to get this thread back on topic.... In the title, shouldn't there be a capital B in buts?

Fuck off.

[London Blue]

6 minutes ago, Matt said:

But what? Handing out jobs based on skin colour isn't the way forward. I would think opportunities needs to come from lower leagues to allow the manager to prove himself. 

Your right there needs to be more done to encourage Black managers to become managers and get the chances in the lower leagues so they can get the experience. Its not just a PL problem its the same in many leagues.

I think a version of the "Rooney Rule" is needed. 

[Shukes]

20 minutes ago, Matt said:

But what? Handing out jobs based on skin colour isn't the way forward. I would think opportunities needs to come from lower leagues to allow the manager to prove himself. 

Exactly my thoughts.

Hate the way society is heading. Still fuming that a very good friend didn’t make the fire brigade after passing all his tests. And his best friend who failed the tests got a place instead.

She even told him she failed the tests. But got a place due to the quota of female applicants that had to get a place. Sad sad world we live in where it’s  now based on sex and skin colour and not actual FFP.

[Goodison Glory]

9 minutes ago, London Blue said:

Your right there needs to be more done to encourage Black managers to become managers and get the chances in the lower leagues so they can get the experience. Its not just a PL problem its the same in many leagues.

I think a version of the "Rooney Rule" is needed. 

The Rooney rule is hardly a roaring success..so let's hope it is markedly different. 

[Romey 1878]

Just now, Shukes said:

Exactly my thoughts.

Hate the way society is heading. Still fuming that a very good friend didn’t make the fire brigade after passing all his tests. And his best friend who failed the tests got a place instead.

She even told him she failed the tests. But got a place due to the quota of female applicants that had to get a place. Sad sad world we live in where it’s  now based on sex and skin colour and not actual FFP.

'Positive' discrimination.

What a load of bollocks that is.

[Shukes]

10 minutes ago, London Blue said:

Your right there needs to be more done to encourage Black managers to become managers and get the chances in the lower leagues so they can get the experience. Its not just a PL problem its the same in many leagues.

I think a version of the "Rooney Rule" is needed. 

Agree with this, but how do we encourage black coloured people to go for the jobs? And why are our boards only racist towards black managers in particular?

While that very same board, buy black players all the time? Do they choose to be racist only for certain positions?

Or is it just simply there aren’t enough applicants for the job?

[Shukes]

1 minute ago, Romey 1878 said:

'Positive' discrimination.

What a load of bollocks that is.

I still fume about it now two years later every time i think of it.

[London Blue]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/63385012

[Hafnia]

4 minutes ago, London Blue said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/63385012

It’s all very well talking about the Rooney rule etc but the cohorts of people taking their coaching badges are very strongly white. One cohort in particular 41/44 were white. 
 

you can’t manage without coaching badges. 

[Romey 1878]

6 minutes ago, London Blue said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/63385012

Doors are not open... says the man that was handed two of his jobs by City .

[Aidan]

3 hours ago, Goodison Glory said:

You would "settle for 3" but how many do you feel we will actually get?

I don't know, it's just too early to tell with Dyche. We managed to beat arsenal, but then conceded 4 away to them.  I'd like to think we can get 3 points from these fixtures, but 1 point and two good performances in the two games we lose isn't the end of the world and we can take positives going forward.

I don't think these are the hardest fixtures, we will give spurs a game at home, Chelsea are fragile, untied is definitely the most difficult fixture out of the three.

[London Blue]

20 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

Doors are not open... says the man that was handed two of his jobs by City .

If he had not been Viera he would not of got a sniff of a job.

As Haff said more needs to be done to get black players / people onto the coaching courses and supported through them, then the Rooney rule to get them job interviews.

Until then nothing will change.

[Romey 1878]

3 minutes ago, London Blue said:

If he had not been Viera he would not of got a sniff of a job.

As Haff said more needs to be done to get black players / people onto the coaching courses and supported through them, then the Rooney rule to get them job interviews.

Until then nothing will change.

So that was an open door and he used it and then he blew the opportunity because he wasn't very good at his job.

Discrimination is wrong no matter how you dress it up, and you can add the word positive in front of it all you like but it's still discrimination.

Racism exists and I'm sure it does influence certain people but it seems to me that the race card gets thrown out an awful lot when people that failed are punished for that failure.

Vieira will get another opportunity and if he doesn't blow it again he'll keep that job.

[London Blue]

20 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

So that was an open door and he used it and then he blew the opportunity because he wasn't very good at his job.

Discrimination is wrong no matter how you dress it up, and you can add the word positive in front of it all you like but it's still discrimination.

Racism exists and I'm sure it does influence certain people but it seems to me that the race card gets thrown out an awful lot when people that failed are punished for that failure.

Vieira will get another opportunity and if he doesn't blow it again he'll keep that job.

The only reason Viera had a door to be opened was because he was one of the premier leagues best players, that kind of pre-requisite limits the opportunities for other Black people who want to be managers.

In order to get balance and fair representation Black players and coaches need to be prioritised to achieve it then that seems to be a fair price to pay.

Nobody is saying white players can't do the coaching courses or be appointed to jobs, just that more people of colour need to be trained and given a seat at the table to get an interview to be given a chance.

[Matt]

1 hour ago, Shukes said:

Exactly my thoughts.

Hate the way society is heading. Still fuming that a very good friend didn’t make the fire brigade after passing all his tests. And his best friend who failed the tests got a place instead.

She even told him she failed the tests. But got a place due to the quota of female applicants that had to get a place. Sad sad world we live in where it’s  now based on sex and skin colour and not actual FFP.

I'm very much of the opinion that if you force equality you will create division. Its so counter productive. But it ticks the HR hiring quota so then companies can pat themselves on the back. 

It starts, as with everything, with the opportunity for education and then making the most of that opportunity when provided. So long as there's no one rejecting candidates for studies based on ridiculous criteria, which happens far too often and sometimes because of these quotas, then equality will eventually be realised. Well, some aspects of it will. In any case its a multi generational change that will take decades and centuries to realise. 

[Goodison Glory]

7 minutes ago, London Blue said:

The only reason Viera had a door to be opened was because he was one of the premier leagues best players, that kind of pre-requisite limits the opportunities for other Black people who want to be managers.

In order to get balance and fair representation Black players and coaches need to be prioritised to achieve it then that seems to be a fair price to pay.

Nobody is saying white players can't do the coaching courses or be appointed to jobs, just that more people of colour need to be trained and given a seat at the table to get an interview to be given a chance.

Do you think the Rooney rule has been effective? The NFL is racked with examples where this rule has been applied (minorities got an interview)  it then the candidates have still been allegedly discriminated against. The evidence I'm the Flores case was pretty compelling. 

[Romey 1878]

8 minutes ago, London Blue said:

The only reason Viera had a door to be opened was because he was one of the premier leagues best players, that kind of pre-requisite limits the opportunities for other Black people who want to be managers.

In order to get balance and fair representation Black players and coaches need to be prioritised to achieve it then that seems to be a fair price to pay.

Nobody is saying white players can't do the coaching courses or be appointed to jobs, just that more people of colour need to be trained and given a seat at the table to get an interview to be given a chance.

Sorry, but taking away from others to help someone else is not right and that's what you're advocating.

Like Matt says, it'll create other problems instead.

I don't know what could/should be done but this isn't the right thing in my opinion.

[London Blue]

3 minutes ago, Matt said:

I'm very much of the opinion that if you force equality you will create division. Its so counter productive. But it ticks the HR hiring quota so then companies can pat themselves on the back. 

It starts, as with everything, with the opportunity for education and then making the most of that opportunity when provided. So long as there's no one rejecting candidates for studies based on ridiculous criteria, which happens far too often and sometimes because of these quotas, then equality will eventually be realised. Well, some aspects of it will. In any case its a multi generational change that will take decades and centuries to realise. 

You cant force but you can set the conditions necessary to have change.

If you have candidates of equal quality and under-reputation of one community then it makes sense to employ people from that community to get balance.

 

[London Blue]

3 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

Sorry, but taking away from others to help someone else is not right and that's what you're advocating.

Like Matt says, it'll create other problems instead.

I don't know what could/should be done but this isn't the right thing in my opinion.

What about taking away from people who never got the chance in the first place?

Its not a zero sum game where its all Black coaches or all White coaches, what we are saying is change the balance so more Black coaches get on the courses for a while so we get balance and fairness. It doesn't mean no white coaches get trained, and all those participating have to meet the same standard.

I don't know what the figures are Black coaches doing the Fifa  top courses are but say its 10% Black, then if we increase it to 30 %  for that, in conjunction with the Rooney Rule would make a difference.

There is a good article here: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-arent-there-more-black-managers-in-english-soccer/

 

 

[London Blue]

17 minutes ago, Goodison Glory said:

Do you think the Rooney rule has been effective? The NFL is racked with examples where this rule has been applied (minorities got an interview)  it then the candidates have still been allegedly discriminated against. The evidence I'm the Flores case was pretty compelling. 

Not in NFL because the owners have so much power, but it has started conversations on TV shows and in the media asking clubs why they are not giving chances to certain coaches, the Washington Commanders and Colts are two clubs that have come under real scrutiny over their hiring policies. Its not enough but having it discussed bt mainstream media is a step in the right direction.

NBA on the other hand is much more effective:

English soccer could look to another league as an example of better representation: the NBA. In the 2021 NBA offseason, seven of the eight head coaching vacancies were filled by Black coaches. Overall, according to The Institute for Diversity and Ethics in Sport, Black people during the 2020-21 NBA season made up 50 percent of head coaches, 53 percent of assistant coaches and 40 percent of general managers. These numbers reflect the dominance of Black players in the league: Almost 75 percent of NBA players are Black.

[Romey 1878]

57 minutes ago, London Blue said:

What about taking away from people who never got the chance in the first place?

Its not a zero sum game where its all Black coaches or all White coaches, what we are saying is change the balance so more Black coaches get on the courses for a while so we get balance and fairness. It doesn't mean no white coaches get trained, and all those participating have to meet the same standard.

I don't know what the figures are Black coaches doing the Fifa  top courses are but say its 10% Black, then if we increase it to 30 %  for that, in conjunction with the Rooney Rule would make a difference.

There is a good article here: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-arent-there-more-black-managers-in-english-soccer/

 

 

And while that happens you might miss out on better coaches than them because they couldn't get a look in due to not being part of a forced quota.

You don't fuck others off to help another group. All should be accommodated.

That's my last on it.

[Matt]

1 hour ago, London Blue said:

You cant force but you can set the conditions necessary to have change.

If you have candidates of equal quality and under-reputation of one community then it makes sense to employ people from that community to get balance.

 

Conditions yes, but they need to be for all. Otherwise you're forcing something and that always creates opposition.

Picking from one community to create balance is undermining the whole concept of equality and doesn't create any balance. If they're good enough, they'll be hired (if I'm doing the hiring at least). 

[Matt]

I remember going to a session for my company at the time, HR were pushing women in the workplace. They sat us all down and there were 3 women in the department of about 20. "What a sausage-fest" was the quote 

I pointed out that we were all white too, so are addressing that too? The answer was "That's not our priority, women in the workplace is what we need to improve". 

Completely ignorant to actual equality, tick the box activity to look good to shareholders. 

[Newty82]

Let's be honest, the vast majority of us don't give a shit about what skin colour you have, what religion, what gender, or sexual orientation you have/are...whatever the correct term is.

You're a decent person, happy days. You're an arsehole, then you're an arsehole.

It does, however, seem to be a very selective topic which some people cherry pick at to suite their own agenda or to play victim.

In this example, not enough black PL managers. How many should there be? Critics will say 'well, 44% of PL footballers are black. So, quotas should be based on that'. OK. Well, only 4% of the UK population is black, so should we have less black players based on that? Or does it not work that way? Actually, Vieira was the only Black PL manager out of 20. Representing 5%. That was 1% more than at population level. Asians are 9% of UK population...how many are footballers and why isn't this an issue?

I struggle to get my head around it. Maybe I'm naive. I mean, I'm a white cis gender heterosexual male, so I've never come up against any problems in life at all (sarc). I just like to think that we're better than to judge based solely on skin colour. Maybe I'm completely wrong

[Matt]

3 minutes ago, Newty82 said:

Let's be honest, the vast majority of us don't give a shit about what skin colour you have, what religion, what gender, or sexual orientation you have/are...whatever the correct term is.

You're a decent person, happy days. You're an arsehole, then you're an arsehole.

It does, however, seem to be a very selective topic which some people cherry pick at to suite their own agenda or to play victim.

In this example, not enough black PL managers. How many should there be? Critics will say 'well, 44% of PL footballers are black. So, quotas should be based on that'. OK. Well, only 4% of the UK population is black, so should we have less black players based on that? Or does it not work that way? Actually, Vieira was the only Black PL manager out of 20. Representing 5%. That was 1% more than at population level. Asians are 9% of UK population...how many are footballers and why isn't this an issue?

I struggle to get my head around it. Maybe I'm naive. I mean, I'm a white cis gender heterosexual male, so I've never come up against any problems in life at all (sarc). I just like to think that we're better than to judge based solely on skin colour. Maybe I'm completely wrong

I'm a more evil version of the above, I work for multinationals too!

[London Blue]

1 hour ago, Romey 1878 said:

And while that happens you might miss out on better coaches than them because they couldn't get a look in due to not being part of a forced quota.

You don't fuck others off to help another group. All should be accommodated.

That's my last on it.

How many talented managers and coaches do we miss out on when there is such under-representation?

[London Blue]

I'm not talking about quotas of managers or coaches, I'm talking about getting more Black Coaches on training courses they meet the requirements for and given an interview for jobs they are qualified to do.

That's all.

Doing what we have done so far has not worked. So let's look to do something that has worked, such as in the NBA.

[Newty82]

2 hours ago, London Blue said:

I'm not talking about quotas of managers or coaches, I'm talking about getting more Black Coaches on training courses they meet the requirements for and given an interview for jobs they are qualified to do.

That's all.

Doing what we have done so far has not worked. So let's look to do something that has worked, such as in the NBA.

I don't know the requirements for the coaching courses. I'm assuming the only requirement is to be a human? Or am I being naive here? Educate me a bit, what are the requirements? If a white, Asian, black person meets them, what stops one more than the other? 

How many black people are applying for the jobs? If the UK black population is 4%...how many of those 4% are first, interested in football...then have experience in football...then have done the courses then applying for jobs? You know what I mean? I'm just looking at it from a point of view that it must be a very small pool of people in the first place? Furthermore, why aren't we asking the same questions about the Asian population? Why is this population being overlooked?

Is it not just possible that we have different cultural DNA? Which leads us to different wants and needs? Like Male. Female. White. Black. Asian. Hispanic. Etc.