Ifs, buts and Maybes

[Palfy]

6 hours ago, Matt said:

I'm very much of the opinion that if you force equality you will create division. Its so counter productive. But it ticks the HR hiring quota so then companies can pat themselves on the back. 

It starts, as with everything, with the opportunity for education and then making the most of that opportunity when provided. So long as there's no one rejecting candidates for studies based on ridiculous criteria, which happens far too often and sometimes because of these quotas, then equality will eventually be realised. Well, some aspects of it will. In any case its a multi generational change that will take decades and centuries to realise. 

I agree with your first paragraph. Ideally the best candidate should always get the position regardless of colour. Unfortunately that isn't always the case because of discrimination. 

[Matt]

17 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I agree with your first paragraph. Ideally the best candidate should always get the position regardless of colour. Unfortunately that isn't always the case because of discrimination. 

And quotas are, whether intended or not, a form of discrimination. Because of that, large parts of the population are overlooked not because they're a poor candidate but because of their skin or sex/gender. It's so hypocritical it's sad. 

[London Blue]

2 hours ago, Newty82 said:

I don't know the requirements for the coaching courses. I'm assuming the only requirement is to be a human? Or am I being naive here? Educate me a bit, what are the requirements? If a white, Asian, black person meets them, what stops one more than the other? 

How many black people are applying for the jobs? If the UK black population is 4%...how many of those 4% are first, interested in football...then have experience in football...then have done the courses then applying for jobs? You know what I mean? I'm just looking at it from a point of view that it must be a very small pool of people in the first place? Furthermore, why aren't we asking the same questions about the Asian population? Why is this population being overlooked?

Is it not just possible that we have different cultural DNA? Which leads us to different wants and needs? Like Male. Female. White. Black. Asian. Hispanic. Etc.

Look at the below table and tell me what is wrong with it;

 

 

As you can see there is quite a disparity in Black players playing in the league and those who manage or control teams.

So if we take Newtys starting point in that people who are interested in football as our reference point, we can assume that the people who are playing the game are interested in it. Most managers and coaches are ex players to some degree or another. So why are there so few Black managers and coaches despite making up such a large proportion of those playing the game?

I don't think anyone seriously thinks its due to cultural reasons or DNA, people who play football are part of the footballing cultural community which is very diverse. 

If as others in the game have said that there are not enough doors open, so if by helping Black people and People of Colour through the door, and making sure clubs have to interview, not necessarily hire, just interview a non-white person we can change that then what's the problem with that?

I agree there are very few people of Asian heritage playing the game, and I don't know the reason for that, but is you are not playing the game you are less likely to take up a career in coaching that game. I think there was an effort a few years ago to broaden footballs appeal to different ethnic groups. Its strange that countries like China, India, Pakistan do not have serious football leagues given the sizes of their population. Its a good question.

But looking at the English leagues it's wrong to me that there are so many Black players, yet so few Black managers and coaches. It is something that must change, imho.

 

[Newty82]

7 minutes ago, London Blue said:

Look at the below table and tell me what is wrong with it;

 

 

As you can see there is quite a disparity in Black players playing in the league and those who manage or control teams.

So if we take Newtys starting point in that people who are interested in football as our reference point, we can assume that the people who are playing the game are interested in it. Most managers and coaches are ex players to some degree or another. So why are there so few Black managers and coaches despite making up such a large proportion of those playing the game?

I don't think anyone seriously thinks its due to cultural reasons or DNA, people who play football are part of the footballing cultural community which is very diverse. 

If as others in the game have said that there are not enough doors open, so if by helping Black people and People of Colour through the door, and making sure clubs have to interview, not necessarily hire, just interview a non-white person we can change that then what's the problem with that?

I agree there are very few people of Asian heritage playing the game, and I don't know the reason for that, but is you are not playing the game you are less likely to take up a career in coaching that game. I think there was an effort a few years ago to broaden footballs appeal to different ethnic groups. Its strange that countries like China, India, Pakistan do not have serious football leagues given the sizes of their population. Its a good question.

But looking at the English leagues it's wrong to me that there are so many Black players, yet so few Black managers and coaches. It is something that must change, imho.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Has there been a poll of some sort that has asked those black players how many would like to be managers? Rather than 'assume'? And, again, what doors are closed? I don't know, I'm again taking it that everyone can apply for the relevant coaching badges???

In terms of DNA/Culture...why rule it out? Why would no one consider it a possibility? isn't our DNA/Culture what makes us what we are?

When I worked in Pharmacy, I worked alongside many Pharmacists of African heritage...Ghana, Nigeria, Kenya, Cameroon...I really enjoyed talking to them about their home culture. I was always quite fascinated by it...the vibe, music, colourful clothing, traditional family beliefs, laid back ways of life, the sort of take each day as it comes and live happy in the moment (totally opposite to cut throat European/Western Culture and probably, in my opinion, why we colonised most of the world!) but also not a set of traits you'd put into football management. So why totally dismiss it? I don't see why it's so hard to believe that different cultures of different continental heritage will have different strengths, weakness and personality traits???

I hope this is coming across in the right way. 

[Cornish Steve]

9 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

'Positive' discrimination.

What a load of bollocks that is.

Not at all. Let me take a brief diversion...

We formerly lived in a school district in the wealthiest part of the county. Local councilors from that area wielded a lot of power, and a big majority of school funds were diverted to these already-wealthy schools. In particular, they held special courses for students to prepare for college entrance exams, so their students tended to score around 1250 out of 1600. Now, my daughter attended a different school in the county because of its performing arts program. It was located in a predominantly Black part of the county. Virtually no funds were spent on that school to the extent that classrooms had to be abandoned when it rained heavily. Students received no classes for entrance exams, so they scored about 1000 out of 1600. Some schools in even poorer areas average around 900. Does this mean that students in the wealthy schools are smarter and more deserving of college? Not at all. So I'm a big proponent of colleges accepting the top 10% from each school regardless of score. Yes, it means someone with a score of 1100 from the wealthy school may lose out to someone with a score of 1000 from a poorer school, and some call that affirmative action or positive discrimination, but that's being fair and recognizing real obstacles faced by minorities.

There are almost certainly equivalent barriers for Black coaches (and Asian coaches), which is why there are none in the Premier League. I'm sure there are things that can be done to even up the playing field. Data points like this reveal a problem because there's nothing inherently better about white coaches.

Rant over.

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

And quotas are, whether intended or not, a form of discrimination. Because of that, large parts of the population are overlooked not because they're a poor candidate but because of their skin or sex/gender. It's so hypocritical it's sad. 

It is but it's usually politicians who set quotas with no comprehension of how to administer it fairly. Unfortunately companies have to make the quotas without a fair playing field to achieve their targets. And as you rightly said that just fosters division. 

[London Blue]

2 minutes ago, Newty82 said:

Has there been a poll of some sort that has asked those black players how many would like to be managers? Rather than 'assume'? And, again, what doors are closed? I don't know, I'm again taking it that everyone can apply for the relevant coaching badges???

In terms of DNA/Culture...why rule it out? Why would no one consider it a possibility? isn't our DNA/Culture what makes us what we are?

When I worked in Pharmacy, I worked alongside many Pharmacists of African heritage...Ghana, Nigeria, Kenya, Cameroon...I really enjoyed talking to them about their home culture. I was always quite fascinated by it...the vibe, music, colourful clothing, traditional family beliefs, laid back ways of life, the sort of take each day as it comes and live happy in the moment (totally opposite to cut throat European/Western Culture and probably, in my opinion, why we colonised most of the world!) but also not a set of traits you'd put into football management. So why totally dismiss it? I don't see why it's so hard to believe that different cultures of different continental heritage will have different strengths, weakness and personality traits???

I hope this is coming across in the right way. 

I know what your tyring to say Newty its ok.

Culture is such a wierd thing, people are members of lots of different cultures at the same time, ethnic culture, religious, each with their own sub groups, then there is your social culture depending what groups you belong to, age related culture, even fashion and brand culture - think Apple etc. 

In my experience most people are members of many different cultures, and usually there are a couple of dominant cultures, mostly, religious, ethnic, work and social and they all overlap, like a ven diagram. Its highly unlikely that all  players or even the majority of players all feel the same way about management or career advancement, as they all have different experiences and cultural pulls etc. I don't think you can say all Black people have the same cultural pulls, just like you cant say all White people have the same cultural pulls or influences.

 

[Newty82]

8 minutes ago, London Blue said:

I know what your tyring to say Newty its ok.

Culture is such a wierd thing, people are members of lots of different cultures at the same time, ethnic culture, religious, each with their own sub groups, then there is your social culture depending what groups you belong to, age related culture, even fashion and brand culture - think Apple etc. 

In my experience most people are members of many different cultures, and usually there are a couple of dominant cultures, mostly, religious, ethnic, work and social and they all overlap, like a ven diagram. Its highly unlikely that all  players or even the majority of players all feel the same way about management or career advancement, as they all have different experiences and cultural pulls etc. I don't think you can say all Black people have the same cultural pulls, just like you cant say all White people have the same cultural pulls or influences.

 

Oh yeah, crikey not all will have the same Pulls...for sure! 

I'm not sure where I sit with it all. I like to try to be open minded but I can't find any sort of answer to this one. I've read articles today that are good but just come out with the same stats, statements etc but nothing of any real substance.

Hmmm. Not sure.

[London Blue]

2 minutes ago, Newty82 said:

Oh yeah, crikey not all will have the same Pulls...for sure! 

I'm not sure where I sit with it all. I like to try to be open minded but I can't find any sort of answer to this one. I've read articles today that are good but just come out with the same stats, statements etc but nothing of any real substance.

Hmmm. Not sure.

If there were easy answers mate, people allot smarter than us would have found them 

By thinking about it and talking about it is a start, change is never easy but if we can all agree that things have to change and its just a question of how, then that's progress.

[Hafnia]

Can’t believe forest are leading. Ffs Newcastle 

[Hafnia]

Great finish by Issac 1-1

[London Blue]

Newcastle were all over Forrest at the start.

[Hafnia]

7 minutes ago, London Blue said:

Newcastle were all over Forrest at the start.

The forest goal took the wind out their sails.  Hopefully Newcastle put it to bed, maximum frustrating, think Wilson will come on for him 

[Palfy]

2 minutes ago, London Blue said:

If there were easy answers mate, people allot smarter than us would have found them 

By thinking about it and talking about it is a start, change is never easy but if we can all agree that things have to change and its just a question of how, then that's progress.

Most problems of discrimination and racism in this country are deep rooted in all areas of society. Football is probably more integrated in % terms than most institutions, like construction, police, armed forces. How to even the ethnic and cultural differences up is a challenge society hasn't found an answer for as yet. But I'm a firm believer that the best candidates get the roles regardless of colour. Maybe every so often in all companies have an audit on a random interview forcing companies to keep all applications and recordings of interviews, so an independent search can see whether good candidates where overlooked and why, and that the interviews were as fair as possible to all candidates, that could possibly help stop companies who are blatantly overlooking one ethic section of society over another. 

[Aidan]

13 minutes ago, London Blue said:

Newcastle were all over Forrest at the start.

Haven't seen too many Newcastle games this season but they were very good to watch up until they conceded.

[Newty82]

26 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Can’t believe forest are leading. Ffs Newcastle 

What's this got to do with black football managers?

[Hafnia]

2-1 Newcastle get in. Yates gone off injured got forest who is a big player for them 

[Hafnia]

Var disallowed….. weird one 

in fact fuck weird, it’s blatantly not working 

[Hafnia]

Injury time penno for Newcastle, 2-1.  Deserve it. Forest have been extremely lucky 

[Goodison Glory]

A very good week of results for us (Sat to Fri).

 

[dunlopp9987]

Both of Soton's center halfs go off in the first half with injuries. 

Bournemouth, Soton and Leicester all down at the half

[Hoof_It_Nev]

37 minutes ago, dunlopp9987 said:

Both of Soton's center halfs go off in the first half with injuries. 

Bournemouth, Soton and Leicester all down at the half

You deserve a downvote

[dunlopp9987]

12 minutes ago, Hoof_It_Nev said:

You deserve a downvote

Hey 2 of the 3 are still losing!

And this Wolves/Leeds game is BONKERS

[dunlopp9987]

Soton being gifted an absolutely absurd penalty at the death. VAR is a farse. Burn it all down. Didn't even ask the ref to go look at the monitor. 

 

[plaidharper]

VAR is a joke

[Cornish Steve]

If we win today, we jump to 12th place. It's that tight right now.

[RuffRob]

16 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

If we win today, we jump to 12th place. It's that tight right now.

Massive if, given our record. However, teams around you picking up points has to be a even more of a motivator to put in a performance. You wouldn't  think it would to much for the Chelsea fans to start moaning a groaning.

[Bailey]

On 17/03/2023 at 14:06, London Blue said:

I'm not talking about quotas of managers or coaches, I'm talking about getting more Black Coaches on training courses they meet the requirements for and given an interview for jobs they are qualified to do.

That's all.

Doing what we have done so far has not worked. So let's look to do something that has worked, such as in the NBA.

I think that change has to come from within the respective culture/group etc. 

IMO a lot of this comes down to role models and when the next Pep Guardiola happens to be black/asian/female etc that will go on to inspire a lot of other people from that group to try and emulate that person. Even little things like having good black/female analysts breaks down more barriers and encourages younger people to think about the game slightly differently.

Racism was clearly much more of a barrier in football in the past and that probably put off a lot of players from previous generations from making the step into management. That is changing now and those numbers will gradually increase year after year. Im sure Vieira will get another gig in the league as he did ok for Palace on the whole and likewise Kompany will be there with Burnley next season. 

It might be slow but the next 10 years will see significant change IMO.

[Romey 1878]

Fuck everyone else, we're staying up because of us.

[Goodison Glory]

They might still hit my projection of 1 pt from 3 games but for now I'm happy to hold my hands up. Didn't see us scoring away against half decent sides (forest not in that bracket). Didn't think we had it in us to fight back twice instead of collapsing. We showed fight and resilience. COYB.