Sean Dyche

[Hafnia]

22 hours ago, Matt said:

I always laugh when you make his point. You're the poster with the most extreme posts in both ways, positive and critical, in my eyes 

He's absolutely a firefighter and the club is still on fire. Ironically, it's the only part of the club thats actually improved! I really don't see that settling next season or the season after after to be honest. With a change of owners coming, with a change of home, fire sale of the squad coming... I ask who, again, would be crazy enough and good enough to get this team performing better than a mid table club? I know you can't or don't want to name names but my point is that if you're so clear on the problems, I would assume there'd be some ideas about how or who to fix them would. 

I'm not aiming to dig or tease here. Genuinely curious to hear about alternatives as I keep hearing this complaint about things not being good enough but with no ideas on how to improve. Things like passing and finishing is 100% on the players, the manager isn't on the pitch and is putting tactics in place that has dramatically improved our defence whilst creating a lot more chances. I've no idea who does a better job with this squad in this situation.

Well if you want to define extreme polarities take the performances against Burnley and Chelsea (2 of the worst I have seen from Everton in 40 years) and compare them to the Derby and Forest. 

Its to dyches credit and the players that they recognised the severity of the situation and did something about it.  

The one thing I can say Matt is my barometer doesn't shift immediately and drastically like many. I give people a good chance before going both ways. The issues I spoke of in the 4 game run are still there, let's not get all giddy and pretend we don't have a side who look so poorly coached that they look off balance, flat footed and make up the passing as they go along.   The coaching of the players is as bad as it was with Rafa. 

As for potential managers, Matt - we pay managers at the top end of the scale.  If a manager signs for Everton he is essentially being told "it's £15m guaranteed".  Managers back themselves - most prefer a job where there is work to do where they can see quick wins to get credit in the bank and put them in a position of strength. Take the football managers yellow pages - 90% of them would be interested in managing our club.

if we survive this season I will be grateful to dyche and consider him a good hire.  Yeah - breaking Mike walkers record isn't great but it is what it is, most fans tolerated that because what other option do we have? Baines and the other coaches.
 

my hope is that our clubs future becomes sorted as soon as survival is secured - if I was a bidder I wouldn't move till I knew that we weren't losing £100m next year.  Depending on how that looks will define dyches future. 
 

if it's a "you haven't got much money to spend" then I expect him to stay and see us leave goodison. I don't expect him to see us move to Bramley. 

[Romey 1878]

 

[Matt]

2 hours ago, Hafnia said:

Well if you want to define extreme polarities take the performances against Burnley and Chelsea (2 of the worst I have seen from Everton in 40 years) and compare them to the Derby and Forest. 

Its to dyches credit and the players that they recognised the severity of the situation and did something about it.  

The one thing I can say Matt is my barometer doesn't shift immediately and drastically like many. I give people a good chance before going both ways. The issues I spoke of in the 4 game run are still there, let's not get all giddy and pretend we don't have a side who look so poorly coached that they look off balance, flat footed and make up the passing as they go along.   The coaching of the players is as bad as it was with Rafa. 

As for potential managers, Matt - we pay managers at the top end of the scale.  If a manager signs for Everton he is essentially being told "it's £15m guaranteed".  Managers back themselves - most prefer a job where there is work to do where they can see quick wins to get credit in the bank and put them in a position of strength. Take the football managers yellow pages - 90% of them would be interested in managing our club.

if we survive this season I will be grateful to dyche and consider him a good hire.  Yeah - breaking Mike walkers record isn't great but it is what it is, most fans tolerated that because what other option do we have? Baines and the other coaches.
 

my hope is that our clubs future becomes sorted as soon as survival is secured - if I was a bidder I wouldn't move till I knew that we weren't losing £100m next year.  Depending on how that looks will define dyches future. 
 

if it's a "you haven't got much money to spend" then I expect him to stay and see us leave goodison. I don't expect him to see us move to Bramley. 

Well your tone has gone from "hang him from his ginger bollocks, he's a bully, he's the worst" (paraphrasing, not looking for direct quotes) to patting him on the back for a job done after a couple of wins and saying he'll have done his job... But you're right, you're usually frustratingly stuck to your position  don't get me wrong, this version of posting is a lot more desirable!

Fair enough but that's more appealing to mercenaries, no? We've seen that enough over the last few years and that's more of a worrying proposition in my view; it's a large part of of the reason we are where we are. But we've done that part to death already.

See, I do see us needing him for another 2-3 years, unfortunately. Not because I want him to even though I think he could do more and deserves that chance. There's so much still going on which is going to take a lot longer than 12-14 months. When I've done Continuous Excellence implementations, for example, the sponsors and board understood that to change mentality whilst rolling with life's punches was a 10-20 year project. Partly due to external factors, but mostly down to staff churn - very hard to change a mindset of a group if you keep chopping and changing the mission and staff, almost impossible if you're constantly switching the team lead.

[Hafnia]

5 hours ago, Matt said:

Well your tone has gone from "hang him from his ginger bollocks, he's a bully, he's the worst" (paraphrasing, not looking for direct quotes) to patting him on the back for a job done after a couple of wins and saying he'll have done his job... But you're right, you're usually frustratingly stuck to your position  don't get me wrong, this version of posting is a lot more desirable!

Fair enough but that's more appealing to mercenaries, no? We've seen that enough over the last few years and that's more of a worrying proposition in my view; it's a large part of of the reason we are where we are. But we've done that part to death already.

See, I do see us needing him for another 2-3 years, unfortunately. Not because I want him to even though I think he could do more and deserves that chance. There's so much still going on which is going to take a lot longer than 12-14 months. When I've done Continuous Excellence implementations, for example, the sponsors and board understood that to change mentality whilst rolling with life's punches was a 10-20 year project. Partly due to external factors, but mostly down to staff churn - very hard to change a mindset of a group if you keep chopping and changing the mission and staff, almost impossible if you're constantly switching the team lead.

You don't think he lost the squad???

ffs this is the revisionist shite I can't stand. He slapped a player and made fun of the fact he didn't get the joke to the press - the team looked completely at odds and that Burnley game on the return was as bad as I've ever seen.    A great week hasn't made all the wrongs right Matt.... yeah great we can feel smug now after literally shitting ourselves looking at other teams games like I'm still doing now. 

you wanna post ultra positive stuff cos it makes you feel better about the club - fine, but I'm not having it that the team and management went away for training camp and came back better for it. 

whatever went on and the fallout from it - it was left to a group of players and management to sort out and from what I've seen the players have done the "change management".... Tarkowski telling the manager to apologise, the manager changing things he wouldn't change.

Dyche for my part deserves credit for being prepared to change - the players deserve credit for actually driving that change.

it will all come out one day no doubt about it.  If you want to understand that the players had had enough - look no further than Coleman. He loves the club more than anyone and he was not happy one bit and for him to come out and subtly challenge the manager says alot. 

 

[Matt]

31 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

You don't think he lost the squad???

ffs this is the revisionist shite I can't stand. He slapped a player and made fun of the fact he didn't get the joke to the press - the team looked completely at odds and that Burnley game on the return was as bad as I've ever seen.    A great week hasn't made all the wrongs right Matt.... yeah great we can feel smug now after literally shitting ourselves looking at other teams games like I'm still doing now. 

you wanna post ultra positive stuff cos it makes you feel better about the club - fine, but I'm not having it that the team and management went away for training camp and came back better for it. 

whatever went on and the fallout from it - it was left to a group of players and management to sort out and from what I've seen the players have done the "change management".... Tarkowski telling the manager to apologise, the manager changing things he wouldn't change.

Dyche for my part deserves credit for being prepared to change - the players deserve credit for actually driving that change.

it will all come out one day no doubt about it.  If you want to understand that the players had had enough - look no further than Coleman. He loves the club more than anyone and he was not happy one bit and for him to come out and subtly challenge the manager says alot. 

 

I was trying to be a lot more calm in my post because there's no point debating with you, so I'm just asking questions. I'm really not looking for a fight mate. If I seem overly positive maybe because you're overly negative? I honestly try to see the positive where I can because there's enough shit in the world and with the club that I need to see light at the end of the tunnel. That's largely what drives me patience.

No, I don't think he lost the squad. I think I underestimated the event and there was a falling out that was blown out of proportion. But back to back home wins with hard working performances tell me he didn't lose the dressing room, but he clearly fucked up. If he's been big enough to change in a way the squad have responded, then that shows me he is adaptable. Put it this way, we've had managers who would've just banished the dissenting players to the u21s or worse. Not sure I ever said we came back from the training trip a better squad, that would've been insane.

The players absolutely deserve the credit for the change, but then they were also largely at fault for for the shite run we had, i.e the shit passing argument pointed at Dyche. 

Just curious, how do you see the next 6 months going at the club?

[Hafnia]

20 minutes ago, Matt said:

I was trying to be a lot more calm in my post because there's no point debating with you, so I'm just asking questions. I'm really not looking for a fight mate. If I seem overly positive maybe because you're overly negative? I honestly try to see the positive where I can because there's enough shit in the world and with the club that I need to see light at the end of the tunnel. That's largely what drives me patience.

No, I don't think he lost the squad. I think I underestimated the event and there was a falling out that was blown out of proportion. But back to back home wins with hard working performances tell me he didn't lose the dressing room, but he clearly fucked up. If he's been big enough to change in a way the squad have responded, then that shows me he is adaptable. Put it this way, we've had managers who would've just banished the dissenting players to the u21s or worse. Not sure I ever said we came back from the training trip a better squad, that would've been insane.

The players absolutely deserve the credit for the change, but then they were also largely at fault for for the shite run we had, i.e the shit passing argument pointed at Dyche. 

Just curious, how do you see the next 6 months going at the club?

Dissenting players? - I think when the likes of Tarkowski takes you aside to tell you to apologise - when the likes of Coleman speak out questioning why he's been stated as not being fit when he actually is then you don't have the ability to send players to the under 21s.

In short Matt he backed himself into a corner. Whats he gonna do? The fans were at breaking point with him and he knew it.   

I will be the first to call at players for not giving a shit - I believe these players do care and wanted to do well. 

The shit passing can absolutely be pointed at dyche and his staff. These players are poor on the ball not because they can't play - cos they are detrained. 

I don't know what the next 6 months will bring - if we are with Dyche then expect to see Westwood come in on a free and his type of player.  If we get money and the ability to invest in the sales of Onana etc then I want a new manager. 

 

[Matt]

1 minute ago, Hafnia said:

Dissenting players? - I think when the likes of Tarkowski takes you aside to tell you to apologise - when the likes of Coleman speak out questioning why he's been stated as not being fit when he actually is then you don't have the ability to send players to the under 21s.

In short Matt he backed himself into a corner. Whats he gonna do? The fans were at breaking point with him and he knew it.   

I will be the first to call at players for not giving a shit - I believe these players do care and wanted to do well. 

 

I don't know what the next 6 months will bring - if we are with Dyche then expect to see Westwood come in on a free and his type of player.  If we get money and the ability to invest in the sales of Onana etc then I want a new manager. 

 

Fair enough. I know where you're coming from, I just don't agree. I'll leave it at that. 

[Newty82]

8 minutes ago, Matt said:

Fair enough. I know where you're coming from, I just don't agree. I'll leave it at that. 

Best way

[RuffRob]

3 hours ago, Hafnia said:

The shit passing can absolutely be pointed at dyche and his staff. These players are poor on the ball not because they can't play - cos they are detrained. 

I don't know what the next 6 months will bring - if we are with Dyche then expect to see Westwood come in on a free and his type of player.  If we get money and the ability to invest in the sales of Onana etc then I want a new manager. 

 

utter claptrap. players are not being 'detrained'.

 

[Hafnia]

59 minutes ago, RuffRob said:

utter claptrap. players are not being 'detrained'.

 

Tell me why they haven't?  

you can't tell me that our passing and general play has been anything other than sub standard for the majority of the season.  Rafa did it to the players, 

I repeat - these players can play football, maybe not Man City levels but they can play. The inability to do it is cos they aren't drilled. 

[Hafnia]

4 hours ago, Newty82 said:

Best way

Wipe your face mate ffs brown nosing at is very very best.   
 

can we have a brown nose vote button? Be a superb introduction 

[Romey 1878]

Well, he's kept us up with games to spare despite having the equivalent of two wins and two draws taken off what we'd earned.

That will do me.

[Romey 1878]

 

[dunlopp9987]

1 hour ago, Hafnia said:

Tell me why they haven't?  

you can't tell me that our passing and general play has been anything other than sub standard for the majority of the season.  Rafa did it to the players, 

I repeat - these players can play football, maybe not Man City levels but they can play. The inability to do it is cos they aren't drilled. 

Haf, I see your points. I do. The general style of play for large chunks of the season has been hard to watch, he did lose the dressing room at one point, and he is stubborn to a fault a lot of the time.

However, I would count this season as a wild success. Romey just posted in the longest thread, but when you consider everything happening off the pitch and even STILL we're in 15th with 3 games to spare?

He deserves all the praise for what he's accomplished

[Hafnia]

1 minute ago, dunlopp9987 said:

Haf, I see your points. I do. The general style of play for large chunks of the season has been hard to watch, he did lose the dressing room at one point, and he is stubborn to a fault a lot of the time.

However, I would count this season as a wild success. Romey just posted in the longest thread, but when you consider everything happening off the pitch and even STILL we're in 15th with 3 games to spare?

He deserves all the praise for what he's accomplished

Overall - all said and done it's a big tick.  

if he and his team sit down over a few beers and they are honest - they will give a huge sigh of relief and say "we got away with one there".  I would like to think they have an idea of the individuals they need to thank for getting the players together. 

i genuinely knew that the team was broken when i watched the game vs Burnley and was absolutely convinced after the Chelsea game. The slap incident and press conference had me shaking my head in disbelief - in a perverse way it's probably helped rescue the season.

I'd love to have been a fly on the wall, dyche I believe had to eat humble pie. The tracksuit for me was a very revealing piece of psychology - "I can change".

it could spell good things going forward if all people concerned learn from it. 

[RuffRob]

1 hour ago, Hafnia said:

Tell me why they haven't?  

you can't tell me that our passing and general play has been anything other than sub standard for the majority of the season.  Rafa did it to the players, 

I repeat - these players can play football, maybe not Man City levels but they can play. The inability to do it is cos they aren't drilled. 

just because a team focuses on the more non possession style of football doesn't mean the coaching staff would go about somehow trying to 'detrained' the players on how to pass a ball. I am sure the will be doing all sorts passing drills. Is detraining players of a particular skill even a thing? 

Possession based footballs great when you have a squad full of the worlds best players, only 5 - 6 teams are particular good at dominating the ball, the rest, it actually makes them quite vulnerable. 

Possession play - sub-standard maybe, but our defensive qualities have been championship chasing quality. Pickford has second most clean sheet this season, only the top three have conceded less goals. Something solid to build from.

 

 

[Hafnia]

2 minutes ago, RuffRob said:

just because a team focuses on the more non possession style of football doesn't mean the coaching staff would go about somehow trying to 'detrained' the players on how to pass a ball. I am sure the will be doing all sorts passing drills. Is detraining players of a particular skill even a thing? 

Possession based footballs great when you have a squad full of the worlds best players, only 5 - 6 teams are particular good at dominating the ball, the rest, it actually makes them quite vulnerable. 

Possession play - sub-standard maybe, but our defensive qualities have been championship chasing quality. Pickford has second most clean sheet this season, only the top three have conceded less goals. Something solid to build from.

 

 

If you don't drill players consistently then they lose the mental sharpness to do the tasks you expect.  Detraining is usually referred to as a physical output thing.  It's real in terms of technical elements. 

[Romey 1878]

Our passing has been woeful long before Dyche even arrived. Maybe the reason we go long so often is because he's not too precious about the football being pretty and because he realises these players aren't great at it.

We're good at doing in small spells but consistently? Nah, someone will eventually play a stupid pass and give possession up.

Do I want it to be better? Of course I do but I've been moaning about it for years so I think it's a little bit unfair to blame Dyche for it.

[Newty82]

2 hours ago, Hafnia said:

Wipe your face mate ffs brown nosing at is very very best.   
 

can we have a brown nose vote button? Be a superb introduction 

Yeah.

Can we also have a Total Cunt button? That would be superb too

[Hafnia]

10 minutes ago, Newty82 said:

Yeah.

Can we also have a Total Cunt button? That would be superb too

Double up on the brown nosing and I'm sure things could be looked at

[RuffRob]

5 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

Our passing has been woeful long before Dyche even arrived. Maybe the reason we go long so often is because he's not too precious about the football being pretty and because he realises these players aren't great at it.

We're good at doing in small spells but consistently? Nah, someone will eventually play a stupid pass and give possession up.

Do I want it to be better? Of course I do but I've been moaning about it for years so I think it's a little bit unfair to blame Dyche for it.

exactly, why focus massive masses of time and effort 'drilling' at something your only going to be average at at best, at the expense at to being one of the best out of possession and at set pieces.

Dyche has turned us from a deserved relegation fighting team to a solid mid table team. I am glad most people also realise he's more than met his brief this season. 

Fucking very glad the club didn't panic and shit it pants after the Chelsea game, sack him and shoved a novice Baines in the hot seat in the vain hope we might have got some sort of bounce. some common sense privailed.

[MikeO]

38 minutes ago, RuffRob said:

Is detraining players of a particular skill even a thing? 

Detraining is the partial or complete loss of training-induced adaptations, in response to an insufficient training stimulus. Detraining characteristics may be different depending on the duration of training cessation or insufficient training. 

Short term cardiorespiratory detraining is characterised in highly trained athletes by a rapid decline in maximal oxygen uptake (VO2max) and blood volume. Exercise heart rate increases insufficiently to counterbalance the decreased stroke volume, and maximal cardiac output is thus reduced. Ventilatory efficiency and endurance performance are also impaired.

These changes are more moderate in recently trained individuals. From a metabolic viewpoint, short term inactivity implies an increased reliance on carbohydrate metabolism during exercise, as shown by a higher exercise respiratory exchange ratio, and lowered lipase activity, GLUT-4 content, glycogen level and lactate threshold. At the muscle level, capillary density and oxidative enzyme activities are reduced. Training-induced changes in fibre cross-sectional area are reversed, but strength performance declines are limited.

Hormonal changes include a reduced insulin sensitivity, a possible increase in testosterone and growth hormone levels in strength athletes, and a reversal of short term training-induced adaptations in fluid-electrolyte regulating hormones.

I thought everyone knew that

[RuffRob]

10 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Detraining is the partial or complete loss of training-induced adaptations, in response to an insufficient training stimulus. Detraining characteristics may be different depending on the duration of training cessation or insufficient training. 

Short term cardiorespiratory detraining is characterised in highly trained athletes by a rapid decline in maximal oxygen uptake (VO2max) and blood volume. Exercise heart rate increases insufficiently to counterbalance the decreased stroke volume, and maximal cardiac output is thus reduced. Ventilatory efficiency and endurance performance are also impaired.

These changes are more moderate in recently trained individuals. From a metabolic viewpoint, short term inactivity implies an increased reliance on carbohydrate metabolism during exercise, as shown by a higher exercise respiratory exchange ratio, and lowered lipase activity, GLUT-4 content, glycogen level and lactate threshold. At the muscle level, capillary density and oxidative enzyme activities are reduced. Training-induced changes in fibre cross-sectional area are reversed, but strength performance declines are limited.

Hormonal changes include a reduced insulin sensitivity, a possible increase in testosterone and growth hormone levels in strength athletes, and a reversal of short term training-induced adaptations in fluid-electrolyte regulating hormones.

I thought everyone knew that

i see, so a bit more to it than just making you shit at passing.

[MikeO]

2 minutes ago, RuffRob said:

i see, so a bit more to it than just making you shit at passing.

I actually thought in just meant getting off a train if I'm honest

[Goodison Glory]

Honestly I can't stand the man, but I will give credit where credit is due. Our performances (at times) have been shit largely due to him and his tactics/selections and his subs strategy....BUT what he has had to deal with would have crushed most managers.
 

Think how frustrating it has been for us as fans - the points deductions, the takeover farce, the annoyance at the hidden truths in our financials....he's had to put up with the same shit only he can't have just have a good moan about it, he's still got to perform.

So while I don't like him one bit, I will tip the hat and say he's done a good job in spite of everything. 

[Wiggytop]

9 hours ago, Hafnia said:

i genuinely knew that the team was broken when i watched the game vs Burnley and was absolutely convinced after the Chelsea game.

Really ? It seems to me you just do not want to accept that Dyche has done a really good job this season, ( and last on his arrival) on maintaining our PL status whilst dealing with all the off field shit we have had to endure.

If it was broken, where did three wins in 6 days with no goals conceded come from, a broken team wouldn’t have been able to do that. 
 

Time to give it a rest for your own sake, and mine, please.

[Romey 1878]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cd1vz187990o

[Hafnia]

1 hour ago, Wiggytop said:

Really ? It seems to me you just do not want to accept that Dyche has done a really good job this season, ( and last on his arrival) on maintaining our PL status whilst dealing with all the off field shit we have had to endure.

If it was broken, where did three wins in 6 days with no goals conceded come from, a broken team wouldn’t have been able to do that. 
 

Time to give it a rest for your own sake, and mine, please.

Clearly just selected bits of what I've said haven't you mate. Got a bit frothy and agitated and due to that I've got to make another post where I say "Dyche gets a big tick for job done"

I'll try and do an abridged version just for you in case you lose what it is I'm saying...

he got the job done, big thanks, well done. However I hope he learns from this cos I believe the fact that the players actually care about the club and the fans meant they were convey what needed to change.

hope this helps

[Hafnia]

9 hours ago, RuffRob said:

i see, so a bit more to it than just making you shit at passing.

Ever heard the saying "don't skip leg day" - just replace leg with the word passing/possession. 
 

 

[Matt]

30 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Ever heard the saying "don't skip leg day" - just replace leg with the word passing/possession. 
 

 

I know where you're coming from but when you prioritise something else, bits get rusty. Passing is something that is so intrinsically engrained into football that you'd like to confidently assume they'd be able to do without thinking. I don't buy the detrained claim, but should it have had more focus than it did? Maybe, but at what cost? I see it as we improved our defence massively and pretty passing was dropped. When basic passing was failing, we went long to avoid that banana skin. I still expect, as I assume the manager did too, that passing to a team mate is footy 101, but it did suffer.