Sean Dyche

[Matt]

8 hours ago, Hafnia said:

Fairs fair.... we had near 4 months of dross. The forum got red hot when people were looking at extending his contract.... let's not pretend it's been a knee jerk reaction. We've had a good week. 

im not convinced - these players as i have said repeatedly can deliver more.  He said home truths were delivered on both sides - I certainly think this was the case. 
 

but - his expectation is to deliver survival and that was the highlight of an otherwise dreary season. 

We did have months of dross. It's been a weird season; we had 10 games of UEFA level form and 15 of relegation form. But the goal for this season was improvement and stability. Dunno about the stability, but I still put most of that on the players. But 41 points is the minimum we should be on, a mid table performance after the previous 2 years is a massive achievement. Not been achieved in a pretty way, it's awful to watch for the most part. But we wanted safety before the last game of the season, we wanted an improvement on our league position and he's delivered that in spite of the worst the club has been in since Johnson days.

[Romey 1878]

Not to mention, he's got us a famous fan in Billie Joe Armstrong of Green Day!

[Hafnia]

Dyches admission that he had lost the dressing room has probably got the bounce we needed from the players. Let's not pretend he wasn't admitting he lost them - to accuse them of wanting him out so they could say hoorah to a new voice is pretty much saying that.   Telling the press he said it was a last throw of the dice.  His change of clothes was his gesture to the players that he will change. 

Anyone watching knew that the players were completely disengaged, I couldn't give a toss if you wanna be right about dyche - I just wanna see the team survive. I understand the smug giddiness - I couldn't sleep last night cos I was full of adrenaline.  I'm not stupid enough to think that dyche is a great manager cos of it.

These players are better than 45 points, these players are better than 14 games without a win. 
 

this is the issue with some football fans, 4 months of dross can be erased by a derby win and that's why we need to look at the season as a whole.  If we had a board he would have gone weeks ago... make no mistake about that.

He may get the summer to see what changes he can make, I personally don't think he coaches teams well.  Our technical play is piss poor, we got the last 2 wins by out working the opposition. 
 

still buzzing and fingers crossed we make things 100% this weekend cos I'm not fully confident that we know what we are gonna get from this side and I want to watch football and relax for once. 

[patto]

Just hope we don’t offer him a new contract now. 
if he’s here next season just run  his contract down. 
if he does well then make a decision. 
I don’t expect him to be here by the way  

 

[Hafnia]

24 minutes ago, patto said:

Just hope we don’t offer him a new contract now. 
if he’s here next season just run  his contract down. 
if he does well then make a decision. 
I don’t expect him to be here by the way  

 

Yep. Absolutely no way offer new contract.  He's here to do a specific job whilst we are in a certain state. 
 

i hope there is no reason to play this brand of football much longer.... needs must and all that but we need an overhaul. 

[Btay]

19 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Yep. Absolutely no way offer new contract.  He's here to do a specific job whilst we are in a certain state. 
 

i hope there is no reason to play this brand of football much longer.... needs must and all that but we need an overhaul. 

I would like to hope he gets a good run of games next year to consolidate us as mid table and even look to expand on the style of football.

[Hafnia]

42 minutes ago, Btay said:

I would like to hope he gets a good run of games next year to consolidate us as mid table and even look to expand on the style of football.

Take Everton out the equation -  If I was Sean Dyche I wouldn't change what I do, if I was a member of his family/coaching team I would say "why  are you changing a product that there will always be a need for to appease one customer who wants something better".  

its like a golfer with an ugly swing that hits it 50 yards shorter than everyone else..... doesn't win anything, doesn't get people watching him but he makes the cut at most tournaments and pulls in a few million a year and lives a great luxury life.    There will be people saying "make these changes to your swing and you will hit it longer and get lower scores and maybe win something".........  seen it a million times before - golfer gets lost in what they are being taught, it feels alien, they lose confidence and they lose their tour card and with that millions of pounds.

it sounds like I'm making the case to keep dyche and his tactics - I'm not.  I'm advocating hiring a manager who can coach a side to be a better team who can actually dominate and win games.  Dyche when he leaves us will get the likes of Leicester, Leeds, or clubs being relegation threatened offering him good wages and hefty survival bonuses - because he will do the ugly stuff better than most like Allardyce. 

For me dyche isn't the manager to take us to where we want to be but he has stopped us going where we don't want to be. Thats fine, but I don't think he is the type of person to become expensive. It's not him. 

[Matt]

Just now, Hafnia said:

Take Everton out the equation -  If I was Sean Dyche I wouldn't change what I do, if I was a member of his family/coaching team I would say "why  are you changing a product that there will always be a need for to appease one customer who wants something better".  

its like a golfer with an ugly swing that hits it 50 yards shorter than everyone else..... doesn't win anything, doesn't get people watching him but he makes the cut at most tournaments and pulls in a few million a year and lives a great luxury life.    There will be people saying "make these changes to your swing and you will hit it longer and get lower scores and maybe win something".........  seen it a million times before - golfer gets lost in what they are being taught, it feels alien, they lose confidence and they lose their tour card and with that millions of pounds.

it sounds like I'm making the case to keep dyche and his tactics - I'm not.  I'm advocating hiring a manager who can coach a side to be a better team who can actually dominate and win games.  Dyche when he leaves us will get the likes of Leicester, Leeds, or clubs being relegation threatened offering him good wages and hefty survival bonuses - because he will do the ugly stuff better than most like Allardyce. 

For me dyche isn't the manager to take us to where we want to be but he has stopped us going where we don't want to be. Thats fine, but I don't think he is the type of person to become expensive. It's not him. 

Expansive? Either way, he's never had a budget or squad capable of much more than we're seeing. I'm still curious.

[Formby]

11 minutes ago, Matt said:

Expansive? Either way, he's never had a budget or squad capable of much more than we're seeing. I'm still curious.

He kept us up last year; it looks like he will keep us up this year.

He has the backing of the players.

He has carried the club on his back in very trying circumstances.

I think he deserves a shot next year with hopefully some better attacking players. Two bona fide forwards - a 10 and a winger - and an attacking right back - changes this team completely.

 

 

[Hafnia]

23 minutes ago, Matt said:

Expansive? Either way, he's never had a budget or squad capable of much more than we're seeing. I'm still curious.

So international footballers can't be expected to pass a ball? 
 

sorry Matt, talking nonsense not talking about him playing like city, I'm talking about working on creating a couple of overloads here and there. 

[Romey 1878]

I'd much rather he was our manager next season than not. The following season is another question.

Things don't look like they're going to be any easier for us next season (in terms of off field stuff) so I'd prefer to keep the stability going. We absolutely cannot get relegated any time soon and he's the safest option to make that a reality.

That doesn't mean he's a guarantee but I think it's too risky to get shut in the summer.

[Matt]

9 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

So international footballers can't be expected to pass a ball? 
 

sorry Matt, talking nonsense not talking about him playing like city, I'm talking about working on creating a couple of overloads here and there. 

How is the ability of the international footballers to pass a ball on Dyche? Unless you think he's actively coaching them to be shit passers?

You don't want him here, you've made that clear in pretty much every thread since December, don't remember much prior to that. Meanwhile, I think he's progressed us quite a bit, despite the turmoil around the club, and think he deserves a crack with better players. You haven't managed to convince me until now that there is a better solution, I don't see anything has changed except we won our first home Derby in 14 years, have kept 11 clean sheets, have the 4th best defensive record in the league and should be sitting on a minimum of 41 points. Comparing that versus the last 2 seasons with pretty much the same squad, arguably weaker, and all the noise, that's impressive. Far from good enough, but a massive positive trend. 

Realistically speaking there's 2 options for next season in my eyes:

1) PSR/FFP will continue to screw us over meaning the squad isn't going to be improved upon and, whilst it's mostly ugly, Dyche has got us progressing in the right direction during these very challenging circumstances. So why change? 

2) We're somehow allowed to buy players but still have to be careful with spending, probably more bargain shopping as most sales profits will go to the books. Would you want a new manager in for that? Potentially and with good reasons. People (moreso than players I imagine) could say Dyche can't attract the players we want, let alone could potentially afford. But then who? I accept that we're still attractive with our history and the new stadium, but who takes us further than the last day relegation escapes to a midtable seaonal performance with less options and more pressure? I don't think we'd see this squad go on to a top 8 squad with anyone else, but who knows. Personally I don't think it's a gamble we need to take next season. I think, harsh as it is, that he gets 1 more season and if he doesn't improve further then we've a new manager for the new stadium. That's probably the best we can hope for with all things considered. 

[Romey 1878]

2 minutes ago, Matt said:

How is the ability of the international footballers to pass a ball on Dyche? Unless you think he's actively coaching them to be shit passers?

You don't want him here, you've made that clear in pretty much every thread since December, don't remember much prior to that. Meanwhile, I think he's progressed us quite a bit, despite the turmoil around the club, and think he deserves a crack with better players. You haven't managed to convince me until now that there is a better solution, I don't see anything has changed except we won our first home Derby in 14 years, have kept 11 clean sheets, have the 4th best defensive record in the league and should be sitting on a minimum of 41 points. Comparing that versus the last 2 seasons with pretty much the same squad, arguably weaker, and all the noise, that's impressive. Far from good enough, but a massive positive trend. 

Realistically speaking there's 2 options for next season in my eyes:

1) PSR/FFP will continue to screw us over meaning the squad isn't going to be improved upon and, whilst it's mostly ugly, Dyche has got us progressing in the right direction during these very challenging circumstances. So why change? 

2) We're somehow allowed to buy players but still have to be careful with spending, probably more bargain shopping as most sales profits will go to the books. Would you want a new manager in for that? Potentially and with good reasons. People (moreso than players I imagine) could say Dyche can't attract the players we want, let alone could potentially afford. But then who? I accept that we're still attractive with our history and the new stadium, but who takes us further than the last day relegation escapes to a midtable seaonal performance with less options and more pressure? I don't think we'd see this squad go on to a top 8 squad with anyone else, but who knows. Personally I don't think it's a gamble we need to take next season. I think, harsh as it is, that he gets 1 more season and if he doesn't improve further then we've a new manager for the new stadium. That's probably the best we can hope for with all things considered. 

You expanded on my shorter post perfectly.

[Matt]

1 minute ago, Romey 1878 said:

You expanded on my shorter post perfectly.

Been typing it for 30 minutes but kept getting interrupted, hadn't even seen yours

[Sev]

15 hours ago, Hafnia said:

im not convinced - these players as i have said repeatedly can deliver more.  He said home truths were delivered on both sides - I certainly think this was the case.

You're right. And must admit I was wrong in some cases regarding certain players. Still, Onana has to be sold asap for as much as we can get, but I think most agree on that.

I also think that most here on TT agree that Dyche is not the answer for a longer campaign and that he was brought here to avoid relegation and create stability. Now, as mentioned from Matt, it would be a big fat lie to say we have stability on the pitch, but that also goes for pretty much everything else off the pitch. With the almost secure "success" of stayng in top flight we should hopefully be interesting to a solid owner/sponsorship.

The only way is up, baby.

[dunlopp9987]

10 minutes ago, Sev said:

You're right. And must admit I was wrong in some cases regarding certain players. Still, Onana has to be sold asap for as much as we can get, but I think most agree on that.

I also think that most here on TT agree that Dyche is not the answer for a longer campaign and that he was brought here to avoid relegation and create stability. Now, as mentioned from Matt, it would be a big fat lie to say we have stability on the pitch, but that also goes for pretty much everything else off the pitch. With the almost secure "success" of stayng in top flight we should hopefully be interesting to a solid owner/sponsorship.

The only way is up, baby.

Well you've done it now

[Matt]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c90z9j0kkkjo

 

[RuffRob]

I agree with those who are championing have a bit of stability in the management department. At the moment there is very little continuity at this club, so wouldn't change the management team unless we absolutely have to. 

 

I think Dyche has done much better than most of the managers we have had in the Moshiri period with much fewer resources and he's had a lot more issues and problems to deal with. Not a high benchmark I must admit, but there has and very much still is over ridding reasons why managers struggle here. I wouldn't doubt any replacement manager coming would find the Everton job easy.

I don't think there have been that many bad performances (5-6 maybe), they may not have been asthetically pleasing, but most haven't been stinkers, I still think we actually deserved more wins/draws that we have ended up with to date. I don't think we have been riding our luck in the games in which we have got results, most points won have been deserved. In an alternative universe when point deductions don't exist and you get a little be more of the rub of the green, we could have just as easy have been in a push for a European spot. Just off the top of my head I still don't understand how Fulham, Wolves and Luton stole 9 points off us at home in the first few weeks of the season - Boom, just considering those 3 games and no points deduction - performance wise we could easily be sitting 8th with 50 points. All ifs and buts, but we have not been far off getting the points West Ham and even Newcastle has to there name this season. 

If we hadn't be artificially 'stuck' in the relegation zone all season, there would be very little talk of swapping Dyche out next season.   

[Wall Writer]

8 hours ago, patto said:

Just hope we don’t offer him a new contract now. 
if he’s here next season just run  his contract down. 
if he does well then make a decision. 
I don’t expect him to be here by the way  

 

There's no way he'll get a new contract offer until we have a proper board and new owners in. And well, new owners and old managers don't always last long together 

[Hafnia]

7 hours ago, Matt said:

How is the ability of the international footballers to pass a ball on Dyche? Unless you think he's actively coaching them to be shit passers?

You don't want him here, you've made that clear in pretty much every thread since December, don't remember much prior to that. Meanwhile, I think he's progressed us quite a bit, despite the turmoil around the club, and think he deserves a crack with better players. You haven't managed to convince me until now that there is a better solution, I don't see anything has changed except we won our first home Derby in 14 years, have kept 11 clean sheets, have the 4th best defensive record in the league and should be sitting on a minimum of 41 points. Comparing that versus the last 2 seasons with pretty much the same squad, arguably weaker, and all the noise, that's impressive. Far from good enough, but a massive positive trend. 

Realistically speaking there's 2 options for next season in my eyes:

1) PSR/FFP will continue to screw us over meaning the squad isn't going to be improved upon and, whilst it's mostly ugly, Dyche has got us progressing in the right direction during these very challenging circumstances. So why change? 

2) We're somehow allowed to buy players but still have to be careful with spending, probably more bargain shopping as most sales profits will go to the books. Would you want a new manager in for that? Potentially and with good reasons. People (moreso than players I imagine) could say Dyche can't attract the players we want, let alone could potentially afford. But then who? I accept that we're still attractive with our history and the new stadium, but who takes us further than the last day relegation escapes to a midtable seaonal performance with less options and more pressure? I don't think we'd see this squad go on to a top 8 squad with anyone else, but who knows. Personally I don't think it's a gamble we need to take next season. I think, harsh as it is, that he gets 1 more season and if he doesn't improve further then we've a new manager for the new stadium. That's probably the best we can hope for with all things considered. 

The short of it is - he's limited. I championed him coming in so I don't need to learn about why we need him. I understand he's a firefighter. 

I'm responding to the suggestion that he couldnt be expected to do more with the players that he has.  I think it's quite clear that the players have had their say and given some candid feedback as he confirmed himself... fair play for him to do that.  I think it was last chance saloon though.  It's not a case of expecting him to become something he isn't - it's about being less rigid, less predictable.  He was doing the same thing match after match, the players looked beaten, the fans completely frustrated. It's not our best Everton side - but they aren't that shit to make them play like 1980s Cambridge United. 
 

I've not been too high on him and haven't been too low on him. The overreaction to our 4 game run was a bit cringey if I'm honest.  He justifiably could have gone after palace at home. The fact that fans haven't kicked off more is a credit. 

I said in another post that he's done what it says on the tin, for that he can be thanked.   Its not for us as fans to say who is good enough to replace him - yeah we could all go and plagiarise some footy hipsters review of some unknown South American league 2 manager who plays a new 33232 formation and will be the next city manager. Thats not our job but there are managers out there who would be chomping at the bit to manage in the PL.

[patto]

1 hour ago, Wall Writer said:

There's no way he'll get a new contract offer until we have a proper board and new owners in. And well, new owners and old managers don't always last long together 

Hope you are right 

[RuffRob]

10 hours ago, Hafnia said:

Yep. Absolutely no way offer new contract.  He's here to do a specific job whilst we are in a certain state. 
 

i hope there is no reason to play this brand of football much longer.... needs must and all that but we need an overhaul. 

i would agree in not offering any sort of new contract, until we see how thinks are going in the new year and when he's in the last 6 months of the one he is one. I don't see bigger jobs than the Everton job being offered to Dyche, so why commit. Different if you have the next best new up and coming manager at the helm. 

I see Dyche as a pair of safe hands rather than perhaps more risky hand of some up and coming progressive manager who has not worked in the Premiership before. The club set up is nowhere near the stability needed to take on the risk on this type of manager just yet. 

There is currently a fine line between pushing for the minor European places and being in a relegation battle. TV money has really evened up the comparative revenue of the none top 6-7 teams. We don't have the financial clout to maintain a pretty much relegation proof squad. We have to be more careful than ever on managerial risks.

Baby steps needed at the moment, not shooting for the moon. 

 

[Btay]

10 hours ago, Hafnia said:

Take Everton out the equation -  If I was Sean Dyche I wouldn't change what I do, if I was a member of his family/coaching team I would say "why  are you changing a product that there will always be a need for to appease one customer who wants something better".  

its like a golfer with an ugly swing that hits it 50 yards shorter than everyone else..... doesn't win anything, doesn't get people watching him but he makes the cut at most tournaments and pulls in a few million a year and lives a great luxury life.    There will be people saying "make these changes to your swing and you will hit it longer and get lower scores and maybe win something".........  seen it a million times before - golfer gets lost in what they are being taught, it feels alien, they lose confidence and they lose their tour card and with that millions of pounds.

it sounds like I'm making the case to keep dyche and his tactics - I'm not.  I'm advocating hiring a manager who can coach a side to be a better team who can actually dominate and win games.  Dyche when he leaves us will get the likes of Leicester, Leeds, or clubs being relegation threatened offering him good wages and hefty survival bonuses - because he will do the ugly stuff better than most like Allardyce. 

For me dyche isn't the manager to take us to where we want to be but he has stopped us going where we don't want to be. Thats fine, but I don't think he is the type of person to become expensive. It's not him. 

I hear what you are saying & I agree to an extent.

I have my issues with him & after Chelsea I found myself focusing on my issues with him more than what I think he does well.

Stepping back from it all though, he has actually done a far better job than we expected.

As for his style - he has never been in a position to build a squad, Burnley were skint & we haven’t given him anything to build anything. If a Martinez type coach took over Burnley before Dyche, they would go down. Kompany tried to play expansive football with them in the prem & they have been battered.

I’m not saying Dyche can do it but he deserves to be given a chance & hopefully these last 4 games he can try to get the team player a nicer brand of football.

[MikeO]

1 hour ago, Hafnia said:

The overreaction to our 4 game run was a bit cringey if I'm honest.

You mean like, "Very optimistic...seen some progressive stuff and a real reason to believe he can go up a level"? 

[Hafnia]

42 minutes ago, Btay said:

I hear what you are saying & I agree to an extent.

I have my issues with him & after Chelsea I found myself focusing on my issues with him more than what I think he does well.

Stepping back from it all though, he has actually done a far better job than we expected.

As for his style - he has never been in a position to build a squad, Burnley were skint & we haven’t given him anything to build anything. If a Martinez type coach took over Burnley before Dyche, they would go down. Kompany tried to play expansive football with them in the prem & they have been battered.

I’m not saying Dyche can do it but he deserves to be given a chance & hopefully these last 4 games he can try to get the team player a nicer brand of football.

If he has managed to turn a group of players around who he pretty openly admitted he had lost - then he has achieved more than most managers. 

The fact is people were saying "same old players getting another manager sacked" which I found bizarre.... unless dcl, Pickford and Coleman were  the legacy troublemakers..... which I don't believe for one second.  I think the reality is the players were able to convey that "this is shit - and this needs to change" and I think in the situation he was in he had to. 

there have been subtle tweaks, for me the Burnley game was awful and the Chelsea game was "oh you complained that want sugar in your tea did you...... how's about the 5 teaspoons see how you like it then" and had us pressing high against a fast breaking team. 

The derby match was the perfect balance of solid shape and discipline with energy to support dcl who did an outstanding job. 
 

 

[Matt]

11 hours ago, Hafnia said:

The short of it is - he's limited. I championed him coming in so I don't need to learn about why we need him. I understand he's a firefighter. 

I'm responding to the suggestion that he couldnt be expected to do more with the players that he has.  I think it's quite clear that the players have had their say and given some candid feedback as he confirmed himself... fair play for him to do that.  I think it was last chance saloon though.  It's not a case of expecting him to become something he isn't - it's about being less rigid, less predictable.  He was doing the same thing match after match, the players looked beaten, the fans completely frustrated. It's not our best Everton side - but they aren't that shit to make them play like 1980s Cambridge United. 
 

I've not been too high on him and haven't been too low on him. The overreaction to our 4 game run was a bit cringey if I'm honest.  He justifiably could have gone after palace at home. The fact that fans haven't kicked off more is a credit. 

I said in another post that he's done what it says on the tin, for that he can be thanked.   Its not for us as fans to say who is good enough to replace him - yeah we could all go and plagiarise some footy hipsters review of some unknown South American league 2 manager who plays a new 33232 formation and will be the next city manager. Thats not our job but there are managers out there who would be chomping at the bit to manage in the PL.

I always laugh when you make his point. You're the poster with the most extreme posts in both ways, positive and critical, in my eyes 

He's absolutely a firefighter and the club is still on fire. Ironically, it's the only part of the club thats actually improved! I really don't see that settling next season or the season after after to be honest. With a change of owners coming, with a change of home, fire sale of the squad coming... I ask who, again, would be crazy enough and good enough to get this team performing better than a mid table club? I know you can't or don't want to name names but my point is that if you're so clear on the problems, I would assume there'd be some ideas about how or who to fix them would. 

I'm not aiming to dig or tease here. Genuinely curious to hear about alternatives as I keep hearing this complaint about things not being good enough but with no ideas on how to improve. Things like passing and finishing is 100% on the players, the manager isn't on the pitch and is putting tactics in place that has dramatically improved our defence whilst creating a lot more chances. I've no idea who does a better job with this squad in this situation.

[Shukes]

I don’t think people suggest those players are troublemakers Haf, but just that they are the same players that countless other managers have had at the club and not been able to get to perform. 
 

Dyche is by no means the answer, but I believe he has the ability to stabilise and build a good solid base. This is what we need at the club right now. 
It’s not just about the players either, it’s the structure behind the scenes as well. 
Make us a viable option for up and coming managers to think of us as a good option. 

[Matt]

2 hours ago, Shukes said:

I don’t think people suggest those players are troublemakers Haf, but just that they are the same players that countless other managers have had at the club and not been able to get to perform. 
 

Dyche is by no means the answer, but I believe he has the ability to stabilise and build a good solid base. This is what we need at the club right now. 
It’s not just about the players either, it’s the structure behind the scenes as well. 
Make us a viable option for up and coming managers to think of us as a good option. 

Exactly. I'm thinking of Dyche as a more palatable and capable Fat Sam. Pure practicality to solve immediate issues, that's it. We don't know if Dyche can be more expansive because he's never had a budget or the squad. When he has he signed Defour, so I think he wants to be more than he is, he just sticks with what he knows for now because that's the best this squad is capable of since they've continually failed at the basics for large parts of the season (still an improvement on the previous 2 seasons!)

[Romey 1878]

 

[RuffRob]

19 hours ago, Hafnia said:

 

The derby match was the perfect balance of solid shape and discipline with energy to support dcl who did an outstanding job. 
 

 

i actually think we have been playing like we did in the derby for much of the first half or even two third of the season. I think we have only really played poorly for the second half of the games in the 13 game run without a win. When 'not getting a win' was becoming a bit of bigger thing game on game. 

We are not great when we have to dominate the ball against poorer teams at home, will all are in agreement that need to improve, but there is definately a foundation to work from. Even with a 6-0 drubbing the other week, only the three title chasing teams have conceding fewer goals than us. That's something that shouldn't be ignored. 

 3 wins in 4 and 1 defeat in 5, has us in the top 4 of the recent form table.

A endless relegation battle has not been the real reflection of this Dyche team.