Hafnia Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Missing the point though Haf. It doesn't matter who you compare him against, he is scoring goals, which win games, which he was brought in to do. I also still wish we had never sold Beckford, even if we did make a nice profit on him. Its like saying James McCarthy makes tackles - and thats it, thats what we brought him in to do, it doesn't matter that he can't pass - which he can. The game has moved on, no longer is a forward just a goal getter, teams can not afford that luxury. Teams are more likley to play a man who is less prolific but able to sustain the momentum of the team - not have it break down because of them. Watch Mourinho, nothing makes him flip his lid like a player giving the ball away - there is a reason for this, it gives the other team the ability to attack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 (edited) Its like saying James McCarthy makes tackles - and thats it, thats what we brought him in to do, it doesn't matter that he can't pass - which he can. The game has moved on, no longer is a forward just a goal getter, teams can not afford that luxury. Teams are more likley to play a man who is less prolific but able to sustain the momentum of the team - not have it break down because of them. Watch Mourinho, nothing makes him flip his lid like a player giving the ball away - there is a reason for this, it gives the other team the ability to attack. Sooo another pointless comparison? The basics of the game have not changed at all. Lets recap: All types of goals (bar own goals) win games. Lukaku scores goals. Lukaku assists goals. I understand you want a goalscorer to do more than just score and setup goals. You want someone to link up play too. For that, get a play maker to sit behind the striker and link up play between the striker (so he is there to strike at goal) and the midfield. Our formation is perfectly setup for just that role. Its just not a strikers role, and that is what Lukaku is, a striker, and something he does very, very well. Edited November 13, 2014 by Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodisonRoad Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 2014 so far.... he is a 1 in 3 striker 11 in 32 games. Pro rata that and he is a 12.5 goals a season striker ..... Jermaine Beckford got 8 goals in 2010-2011 as a substitute playing approximately the equivalent to 25 games - 1 in 3 striker again. Jermaine Beckford scored as many goals per games in a poorer team. Talk about putting a spin on it! How can comparing a strikers full season against anothers first 11 games be right? If your comparing a seasons scoring for one, do it for the other! But that doesnt suit your point does it? Beckford: 8 Goals in 33 League appearances (10-11) Lukaku: 15 Goals in 31 League appearances (13-14) Honestly...Its just seems like because we didnt get Bony in the transfer window and he was the one you wanted us to sign you've spat your dummy out and refuse to see anything good in it. Its like a kid getting a great christmas present but not quite the one he wanted. So he throws a tantrum and no matter how good it looks or how many cool flashing lights it has, it will always be seen as rubbish because its not the one you wanted. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Talk about putting a spin on it! How can comparing a strikers full season against anothers first 11 games be right? If your comparing a seasons scoring for one, do it for the other! But that doesnt suit your point does it? Beckford: 8 Goals in 33 League appearances (10-11) Lukaku: 15 Goals in 31 League appearances (13-14) Honestly...Its just seems like because we didnt get Bony in the transfer window and he was the one you wanted us to sign you've spat your dummy out and refuse to see anything good in it. Its like a kid getting a great christmas present but not quite the one he wanted. So he throws a tantrum and no matter how good it looks or how many cool flashing lights it has, it will always be seen as rubbish because its not the one you wanted. Its annoying isn't it when stats can be selectively used to favour your argument? Pretty much like the nonsense about adding assists to goals to get a 1:2 ratio and diluting the average top goal scorer stats with seasosn with mid to low table finishes. If you are talking about toys Lukaku being bought as a toy it is like someone buying you an XBOX One when you have spent all year building a PS4 catalogue of games ready for the big day. I had reservations about Lukaku back in 2013 - way before we bought him. Blame RM or whatever, fact remains, he ain't right for our style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodisonRoad Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Its annoying isn't it when stats can be selectively used to favour your argument? Pretty much like the nonsense about adding assists to goals to get a 1:2 ratio and diluting the average top goal scorer stats with seasosn with mid to low table finishes. If you are talking about toys Lukaku being bought as a toy it is like someone buying you an XBOX One when you have spent all year building a PS4 catalogue of games ready for the big day. I had reservations about Lukaku back in 2013 - way before we bought him. Blame RM or whatever, fact remains, he ain't right for our style. I think hypocrytical is the word your looking for. That little analogy you come up with doesnt work either. If we'd spent all year building a catalogue of PS4 games as you put it... then surely Lukaku (and his goals) were a part of that catalogue last year. He's suddenly become an Xbox to you because you dont like the price we paid and think we should have got someone different. You dont like that we didnt get who you wanted and we're "stuck" with Rom so therefore you will only pick out flaws and refuse to back the lad. Simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowensda Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 MikeO, Toffee_in_LA and GoodisonRoad 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 2014 so far.... he is a 1 in 3 striker 11 in 32 games. Pro rata that and he is a 12.5 goals a season striker ..... Jermaine Beckford got 8 goals in 2010-2011 as a substitute playing approximately the equivalent to 25 games - 1 in 3 striker again. Jermaine Beckford scored as many goals per games in a poorer team. If he got 16 goals for us last season and 17 the season before for WBA then surely he must be more than a 12.5 goals a season striker? Or is that just you putting your negative spin on it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Let's not turn the Lukaku thread into a Haf thread. I think he has been very poor this season so far. Judged on performances this season he doesn't look like a 15 striker. His touch has been very poor. His finishing has been poor. His link up play has existed in or two games and non existent in the rest. The only thing I don't agree with Haf om is that I think he can improve to an extent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Same here. He's only worth £28m if he can improve vastly though. At present he's playing like a £5-10m striker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodisonRoad Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Let's not turn the Lukaku thread into a Haf thread. I think he has been very poor this season so far. Judged on performances this season he doesn't look like a 15 striker. His touch has been very poor. His finishing has been poor. His link up play has existed in or two games and non existent in the rest. The only thing I don't agree with Haf om is that I think he can improve to an extent. I agree. I said this in the other thread before it all got a bit messy. I dont think he's been very good so far this year either but i dont think he's been as bad as people make out. I think his poor performances have been exaggerated to a degree because of people relating to his price tag. Some people have lost sight that he's still a young striker developing his game. He was never going to be able to do what a £28m signing would do, but he's learning his game and scoring goals in the process, so I honestly dont see why there is such a big problem with him. I think people have also forgotten what notoriously slow starters we are. It always happened under Moyes and whilst last year was marginaly better, it wasnt all that great. I dont think i've seen this mentioned anywhere so far this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 I agree. I said this in the other thread before it all got a bit messy. I dont think he's been very good so far this year either but i dont think he's been as bad as people make out. I think his poor performances have been exaggerated to a degree because of people relating to his price tag. Some people have lost sight that he's still a young striker developing his game. He was never going to be able to do what a £28m signing would do, but he's learning his game and scoring goals in the process, so I honestly dont see why there is such a big problem with him. I think people have also forgotten what notoriously slow starters we are. It always happened under Moyes and whilst last year was marginaly better, it wasnt all that great. I dont think i've seen this mentioned anywhere so far this season. Forget it mate. EVERYTHING is Lukakus fault, I dropped the sausage out my lads hot dog at the Lille game and he also blamed Lukaku for me dropping it. Lukaku was bought on potential. That's why we paid so much for him yet after 11 games he's being written off. The funniest thing of all is none of the Lukaku bashers were saying this last season when he was on loan. He hasn't changed as a player since last season but it seems some on here now think that because he's a 28 million pound striker he should be able to just press a button and become one. By the way, did you also know it's his fault that Everton deemed him worthy of spending 28 million on him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Not all Paddock. I am just rating him on performances. I am bashing him at the moment but will be overjoyed when he starts to bang on the goals. I'm in no way writing him off as I think the potential is there, just at the moment he is not showing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Its like saying James McCarthy makes tackles - and thats it, thats what we brought him in to do, it doesn't matter that he can't pass - which he can. The game has moved on, no longer is a forward just a goal getter, teams can not afford that luxury. Teams are more likley to play a man who is less prolific but able to sustain the momentum of the team - not have it break down because of them. You mean how Lukaku was MOTM against Lille despite scoring no goals! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Not all Paddock. I am just rating him on performances. I am bashing him at the moment but will be overjoyed when he starts to bang on the goals. I'm in no way writing him off as I think the potential is there, just at the moment he is not showing it. I never said all Shukes mate, thankfully there is more seeing the bigger picture with him. Some are starting to jump on the band wagon though and Haf is just downright obsessed with him and his pricetag. When we sell him for upwards of 40 million, MC will have it in "the vauls" in a heartbeat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 I never said all Shukes mate, thankfully there is more seeing the bigger picture with him. Some are starting to jump on the band wagon though and Haf is just downright obsessed with him and his pricetag. When we sell him for upwards of 40 million, MC will have it in "the vauls" in a heartbeat I think we're all showing a bit if frustration due to the whole team playing like shit at the minute. Lukaku does seem to be getting a lot of the blame. We will start playing better and he will start scoring and we will have that warm fuzzy feeling return..... Rom will then be a god? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Pad, I called him out when he was on loan. Goals or not. You see defenders are whily old foxes, what they tend to do is look at a striker and work out what their strengths are and how to negate them. Rom in his west brom games was used as an impact sub against defenders who had been given the run around by Shane long for an hour and Rom could assert his freshness and power in a counter attack system. He then had his loan season with us, come December defenders had worked out that his ability to control a ball was poor, they stopped standing off and got stuck into him. Since then what have we seen? Rom trying to evade defenders going out wide, when smaller defenders closed him out wide like Moreno at Liverpool he still couldn't bully them. Call it second season syndrome or whatever. It is as clear as day that unless he improves on the fundamentals dramatically then we have a striker who is going to have more bad games than good. Every half decent game is a false storm. The only other option is to use him as a sub at the moment. Light a fire under his arse and get him going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Ah!!! he scored a tap in against the mighty Iceland - and by adding in "assists" to goals in makes him a 1 in 2 player.... blimey, what on earth was I worrying about! The thing about stats is - they need to be normalised, remove the outliers don't put them in to dilute the unfavourable aspect of the argument. Its called "spin".... something that the club have insulted intelligence with for quite some time now. We don't need fans to throw their outliers in - we are all too aware of how the 17th placed finishes reflected in terms of top goalscorers. Pound for pound - Yak had the best goalscoring season by far relevant to number of goals scored by the team and points earned. Seriously. First clue in being an analyst, the more "subjective" elements thrown in, the more likley it is that the person is defending/hiding something. Sorry Haf, I don't see how I'm spinning stats? Pound for pound? Yakabu scored in 10 matches, Lukaku scored in 13. 7 of Lukaku's goals got affected the result, Yakubu's goals made the difference in 2 matches. I've not included assists in the above analysis, but it makes sense to get a player who'd get the team the most combined eg. 10 goals and 10 assists is worth more than 15 goals and no assists. So in this case I'd pick the striker that scores 15 and gets 8 assists over the one that scores 15 and only gets 3 assists Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Blimey. How many years will this go on? I'll just say the thing that still sticks on my mind about the big man is consistency. I said at the the end of last season that 8 of his goals came in the first 10 games for us. After that it was here and there. It seems the 'here and there' has carried on a bit. Unfortunately...For whatever reason: niggling injury, world cup hangover, g'friend split up, Martinez tactics, only 21 etc. There's been plenty. Do I think he's being unfairly focused on? Absolutely yes. Even by me. I think he's capable of much more than he is showing just now. I think he has more ability. I also think it's an insult to him to say he's only there to score goals or he needs the ball played in front of him only. I don't know gents, what else can we say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Sorry Haf, I don't see how I'm spinning stats? Pound for pound? Yakabu scored in 10 matches, Lukaku scored in 13. 7 of Lukaku's goals got affected the result, Yakubu's goals made the difference in 2 matches. I've not included assists in the above analysis, but it makes sense to get a player who'd get the team the most combined eg. 10 goals and 10 assists is worth more than 15 goals and no assists. So in this case I'd pick the striker that scores 15 and gets 8 assists over the one that scores 15 and only gets 3 assists Spinning stats... he is a 1 in 2 goals scored or assist player? Compared to say Suarez who got something daft like 44 combined in 38 matches - 1.15 per game vs 0.5 per game... regardless, Pound for pound meaning from total goals scored.... if a club only scores 20 goals one season and one player gets 15 then its fair to say he's done very well in a poor team - harder to score 15 in a lower scoring team than a higher scoring team. Yak scored 27% of the teams prem goals with 15 in 29 games, Lukaku scored 25% of teams prem goals with 15 in 31 games. I'm not going to get into the "valuable goal" stuff, its extremely subjective, does it mean that a goal that makes it 2-0 counts less than the goal that makes it 1-0, there is arguments for and against. Call stats out all day long, the eyes and judgement are an incredible statistician. Its all very one swallow = a summer with Lukaku. He did a few good things against Lille and granted he did a job and didn't lose possession as often as usual and made some effort - but becuase of this some thought he was MOTM, the fact is James McCarthy was clear MOTM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Blimey. How many years will this go on? I'll just say the thing that still sticks on my mind about the big man is consistency. I said at the the end of last season that 8 of his goals came in the first 10 games for us. After that it was here and there. It seems the 'here and there' has carried on a bit. Unfortunately...For whatever reason: niggling injury, world cup hangover, g'friend split up, Martinez tactics, only 21 etc. There's been plenty. Do I think he's being unfairly focused on? Absolutely yes. Even by me. I think he's capable of much more than he is showing just now. I think he has more ability. I also think it's an insult to him to say he's only there to score goals or he needs the ball played in front of him only. I don't know gents, what else can we say? It is pretty much getting to a case of "I've gotta stand up for the lad" - the fact is its in the face of damning facts and they are extremely worrying. Unless I am some sort of footballing novice - it is an absolute pre requisite in the modern game with its pace that players retain the ball - absolutely vital, pass it sideways, backwards, run it to the corner if needs be, but if you are the furthest man forward and your team commit the full backs to the attack it is a risk to the team if your player can't control and hold on to the thing. It makes a potential goal scoring opportunity a threat in the blink of an eye. There isn't much else to say - those who are worried by him but deny that there is a huge risk to our future resources based on him not being worth anywhere close to what we paid for him will continue to hope and argue any slight positives. Pessimits like me will continue to vent at the fact that we are heavily invested into a player who is flawed. Best leave it alone for a bit and cross our fingers and wait and see, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Even I agree McCarthy was MOTM against Lille and that's saying something. Didn't really see anything in Lukaku different, he is what he is. I still think he's a big player for us though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Even I agree McCarthy was MOTM against Lille and that's saying something. Didn't really see anything in Lukaku different, he is what he is. I still think he's a big player for us though I was driving in Virginia and listening to the game via the radio option at the evertonfc website. The commentators gave MOTM to Lukaku, which I should have explained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 I was driving in Virginia and listening to the game via the radio option at the evertonfc website. The commentators gave MOTM to Lukaku, which I should have explained. Everyone sees it differently but for me McCarthy was hands down man of the match in that game. I was there. He was all over the place. I'm usually his biggest critic, there was absolutely nothing I could critisise him about. As I say I didn't notice anything worth warranting a MOTM award for Lukaku. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 I shouldn't be putting a link to this site but it's a landslide... http://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/threads/motm-everton-v-lille-6th-nov-at-20-00-ish.70979/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 I shouldn't be putting a link to this site but it's a landslide... http://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/threads/motm-everton-v-lille-6th-nov-at-20-00-ish.70979/ Ah, but Lukaku was a close second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Ah, but Lukaku was a close second. 124 votes for McCarthy 17 for Lukaku Hardly close Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 124 votes for McCarthy 17 for Lukaku Hardly close Hence the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Three votes for Atsu :dont know:. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest blueboy122 Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 Yakubu was a class player on his day. He was so good that first season and then he got injured if I remember correctly and he never came back the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest blueboy122 Posted November 14, 2014 Report Share Posted November 14, 2014 I can't help but think Jose has had our kecks well and truly down with the Lukaku deal. He obviously didn't see much in Rom and he certainly didn't see the potential that some fans on here see so sold him to the highest bidder. Bought himself an absolute beast of a forward with our money. Fair play Jose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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