Romey 1878 Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 An absolute balloon today. If Martinez has even half a ball between his legs he'll bench Stones on Wednesday and play Jags with Mori. Matt and Elston Gunnn 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 An absolute balloon today. If Martinez has even half a ball between his legs he'll bench Stones on Wednesday and play Jags with Mori. Even with my post defending him, I'd still drop him. That's got to be part of his development. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 We have far too many players who aren't consistent enough. Your Pienaars, Cahills, Baines & Jagielkas always gave you a 7/8 out of 10 every time they played. You need a core if players who are consistsant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 Even with my post defending him, I'd still drop him. That's got to be part of his development. Exactly. He has to know he's accountable for his mistakes. Not just shrug your shoulders and go "oh well". Not one player went up to him and even had a word with him after hanging Howard out to dry. That disappointed me. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 I know people are pissed off with him, but honestly come on. If we sold every player who had a bad half season we'd be without Barkley, Lukaku, McCarthy, Barry, Mirallas.... I'm not going to call it knee-jerk because it's been all season so far, but some are ignoring the good he does too. Presumably because "well, that's his job". The lad is learning, last season he was the gem in a shite team, this season he's the liability. I still wouldn't sell him for the reasons I defended Rom for last season and Ross too; he is a kid with extraordinary talent and is going to make mistakes as he goes. Yes, it's costing us points just as some of Rom's performances or Ross's have cost us points by not scoring or assisting. It's all part of his development and it's down to his manager to get it sorted. His talent ain't that extraordinary Matt, and mistakes for me is slipping on the floor or shinning it... not fucking about like a showboating bell end who believes his own hype. He has all the body language of a player who believes he is too good for us. That to me is not an Everton player. Rooney never did that shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 His talent ain't that extraordinary Matt, and mistakes for me is slipping on the floor or shinning it... not fucking about like a showboating bell end who believes his own hype. He has all the body language of a player who believes he is too good for us. That to me is not an Everton player. Rooney never did that shit. I've heard many a time he's the best English CB since blah blah, plus Barca are after him so he's hardly just really good. He did some really good defending today too, it's just over shadowed by some cock ups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 Since the summer his ego has certainly gone through the roof. How do I know this.... I can see it in his body language and facial expressions. No longer is he a lucky lad playing in the PL. He's now billy big bollocks playing for a mid table side efc1111 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 I've heard many a time he's the best English CB since blah blah, plus Barca are after him so he's hardly just really good. He did some really good defending today too, it's just over shadowed by some cock ups. He has ability, but he isn't extraordinary. I said sell for 50m a while ago because that's what clubs with money will pay. Not if he carries on the way he has Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 He had a shocker today. And this is where Martinez needs to be coaching him about his errors rather than just say 'he'll learn' etc. Yes, he'll learn...but you also need to be told!!! Today, there was no need for what he did leading to the penalty. I think he tries to play it too calm, which can also mean too slow...not a good thing when you are getting hounded by an opposition player. I think his future will be elsewhere. I think his relationship with the fans is becoming fractious, evident today with some more stone faced stares. I think he'll fit right in at Barcelona. efc1111 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogs Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 He doesn't look up for it. He's a talented lad, but let's face facts, his future won't be with us. Sell now while his stock is high, sign a solid CB to back up Jags, Mori and Galloway, a right-back and a striker. Then do everything humanly possible to keep Lukaku and Geri. efc1111, Blue 250, Matt and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFC-Paul Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 His confidence and self belife seems to be out weighing his ability at the moment No doubting his talent but he's putting us in silly situations quite often by trying to play it out of danger Elston Gunnn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 On the bright side he looked every bit the £50m player David Luiz was today. Matt, MikeO and Romey 1878 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 He has ability, but he isn't extraordinary. I said sell for 50m a while ago because that's what clubs with money will pay. Not if he carries on the way he has Fair enough. Can't think of another defender like him in the last how many years, but we can agree to disagree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted January 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 He was piss poor today but that doesn't detract from the fact the he is an exceptional player For me he just needs to be a million miles away from Martinez. I would love to lock him in a room with Jamie Carragher for a few hours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 He was piss poor today but that doesn't detract from the fact the he is an exceptional player For me he just needs to be a million miles away from Martinez. I would love to lock him in a room with Jamie Carragher for a few hours Did Martinez manage him at barnsley too? He has always played this way. Ah of course, before Martinez got him the lad was like terry butcher and Tony Adams. ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted January 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 Did Martinez manage him at barnsley too? He has always played this way. Ah of course, before Martinez got him the lad was like terry butcher and Tony Adams. ... Does Martinez encourage him to take these risks? I think the answer to that question will tell you all you need to know The lad would benefit greatly from having a coach or manager who knows the basics in defending Martinez clearly isn't that man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) Does Martinez encourage him to take these risks? I think the answer to that question will tell you all you need to know The lad would benefit greatly from having a coach or manager who knows the basics in defending Martinez clearly isn't that man Stones is stones, what you get to gloat about and see him bashed about is all John Stones. Did Martinez tell him to take a chipped penalty against juventus? Did he tell him to take 3 players on and set up an attack, did he tell him to give pennos away? No. Stones plays the way Martinez likes players to play the game. That's fine, but for me the 21 year old seems to think he's 31 years old and is beyond criticism. Hold stones accountable for what he's accountable and ffs leave at least some of it away from Martinez door. I know you aren't a fan. Next we will be getting told that roberto told Rom he would fine him a weeks wages for running into the opponents 6 yard box. Edited January 24, 2016 by Hafnia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted January 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 I desperately want it to work out for Martinez but is abundantly clear that he hasn't got a clue when it comes to defending. I have already said Stones was shite today but it's not just about Stones. Martinez inherited one of the best defences in the Premiership and he has added to it by signing our most expensive defender ever yet we now have the worst defence in the league You tell me, if it's not down to Martinez then who is it down to? Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 Haf I think what dunc is trying to say is that Martinez encourages mistakes and players to try new stuff even if it fails. With attacking players this is more plausible but with a defender not so much. He's saying RM needs to tell him stop with the fancy stuff and just defend. But he has not and won't. Because he likes him to do that stuff and hence a leaky d. Did I get that right dunc? I would sell stones summer or now. Jags and Mori is solid and Galloway already played half a season. Get another cheap veteran for cover and use the money for GK and striker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogs Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 There's a reason we try to pass the ball out of defence - the manager tells the players to. It was the first big noticeable change in style from Moyes to Martinez and one that just isn't working. As far as I'm concerned it is a stupid strategy, regardless of how good the players you have at the back are. Puyol, Pique, Mascherano have all been made to look stupid dribbling out from the back or playing unnecessary short passes in their own box, we know Martinez wants to play like Barca but it is still just senseless. Barkley plays a loose pass on the edge of the oppositions area, a chance gets wasted. Stones does the same around his own box, we gift a goal-scoring opportunity away. It isn't just about Stones either, they are all at it and it just makes no sense whatsoever. So Im with Dunc, Stones is getting bad advice from the boss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted January 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) Haf I think what dunc is trying to say is that Martinez encourages mistakes and players to try new stuff even if it fails. With attacking players this is more plausible but with a defender not so much. He's saying RM needs to tell him stop with the fancy stuff and just defend. But he has not and won't. Because he likes him to do that stuff and hence a leaky d. Did I get that right dunc? I would sell stones summer or now. Jags and Mori is solid and Galloway already played half a season. Get another cheap veteran for cover and use the money for GK and striker. Yeah pretty much, I have no problem with Stones trying a panenka penalty in a preseason friendly shootout , but it's a bit different when he is taking unnecessary risks in his own area in a league game He needs a manager who will teach him when it's OK to play football and when he just needs to defend It's not just stupid individual mistakes that are costing us either. We have absolutely no organisation at the back. Every time a ball gets pumped into our box the defenders and keeper just stand around looking at each other . Nobody takes responsibility Edited January 24, 2016 by duncanmckenzieismagic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 There's a reason we try to pass the ball out of defence - the manager tells the players to. It was the first big noticeable change in style from Moyes to Martinez and one that just isn't working. For the previous ten years we were all criticising Moyes' "hoofball" though. Do we want to go back to that as a default move (even though I agree there are times when it's the best option)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted January 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 For the previous ten years we were all criticising Moyes' "hoofball" though. Do we want to go back to that as a default move (even though I agree there are times when it's the best option)? Defenders defending doesn't equate to hoofball though. There is a time to play it out from the back and there is a time to just clear your lines It is possible to be organised at the back and still play good football Did you think the Everton team of the 80's were guilty of hoofball? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 Defenders defending doesn't equate to hoofball though. There is a time to play it out from the back and there is a time to just clear your lines It is possible to be organised at the back and still play good football Did you think the Everton team of the 80's were guilty of hoofball? When the need arose; as I said above it's sometimes the best option. I'm no fan of pissing around with it at the back just for the sake of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeQuince Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 I have no qualms with the ideology behind passing it out from the back. There's a competent way to go about that. And it is effective for a side like ours that wants to play a possession game. It takes opposing players out of the game early on, once they're beat. It allows us an advantage in numbers getting forward. However, we seem to not know where and how we want to play it out of the back. And we are executing our plan (whatever our plan is) poorly. Stones, for instance, is an immensely talented kid. He's got the right skill set for what we want to do. But, he's developed some terrible habits recently, the most frustrating of which is stopping his (and the ball's) momentum entirely. To make it worse, he then starts channeling Phil Neville, pointing around and presumably using some form of telepathy to communicate just what he wants his hapless teammates to do. You can't just stop with the ball, in your own fucking half, and think something will open up for you. Keep moving, change the angle, let something develop. If you see nothing, lump it away and at least, should we lose possession, we lose it 40-50 yards further from our goal. This isn't only a Stones issue (though, he's the only one with this habit), nor is it solely a Martinez issue (though he's the one who allows an environment that supports this to perpetuate itself), it's an Everton issue. Martinez is the manager, though, and needs to either take responsibility for communicating to the players their responsibilities, or he needs to find employment elsewhere. He's a great man manager, but we are so horribly confused out there. Romey 1878 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogs Posted January 25, 2016 Report Share Posted January 25, 2016 Interesting discussion on 5Live earlier, raised interesting points such as why os Martinez getting such an easy ride from the media despite such obvious under achievement. Also discussed whether Stones is getting booed by sections of the Goodison faithful - you know where that wi head next, 'he'd be better off elsewhere where he is appreciated.' The panel also crowed plenty about how England finally has the ball-playing centre half we've craved since Bobby Moore, but now everyone is criticising him... then all concluded he should probably be dropped! Amazing how putting someone on a pedastal works in football, it's almost like it's not Stones' fault he's out of form. It's all about development/tactics/fans/manager. Fact is his insistence on stopping dead with the ball in and around our box is encouraging other teams to press high, his decision making is suffering (maybe as a as a result of being harried) and his frustration is more and more obvious in his body language and over all play. Fuck talent, he's a young boy who needs a rest and needs to learn results matter more than style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlblue Posted January 26, 2016 Report Share Posted January 26, 2016 Play the ball out from the back when its safe to do so, if at times you have to 'hoof' the ball out to stop a goal scoring chance then so be it. Howard is guilty also of this, the number of times he has played a short ball to a defender and instantly put him under pressure this season has been ridiculous. Stones may be classed as a great ball-playing centre back, but he cant be classed as a great defender yet because he isn't one. Martinez may have his stubborn style of defending which i don't agree with but the players have to be accountable for silly passes and taking silly chances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 26, 2016 Report Share Posted January 26, 2016 At the moment it reminds me of a boxing trainer making his fighter walk round the ring with rope round his ankles to encourage proper balance - thing is, he keeps getting knocked out. Stones is a very competent footballer - but far too much of it is being made. I actually think Mori is just as good on the ball but he seems to know when to launch it. I think Carragher has it spot on - "how can you swich into being robust and strong defesively when in your mind you are trying so hard to be this elegant, classy player" For me £50m will be better in our pocket than on the pitch in a player who seriously seems to have an ego that has outgrown the club. There seems to be too much of a need to hold onto his for kudos reasons than football reasons. Stones need to watch Ashley Williams performance and learn from that. dlblue 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 26, 2016 Report Share Posted January 26, 2016 BTW - after the spurs game I suggested that opponents will take a gamble and close stones in the belief that he will try and play it out - Swansea was a case and point and to a degree so was Man City. Aguero was over him like a rash. Teams are targetting him. It will be ego vs common sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted January 26, 2016 Report Share Posted January 26, 2016 BTW - after the spurs game I suggested that opponents will take a gamble and close stones in the belief that he will try and play it out - Swansea was a case and point and to a degree so was Man City. Aguero was over him like a rash. Teams are targetting him. It will be ego vs common sense. Spot on. The guy is holding on to the ball for far too long now. Opposition is wise to it. Close Stones down and he'll make mistakes.... Because he wants to prove he can beat his man four or five times before he releases it. Remove Stones from the back four and I'm pretty sure we'll do a lot better. Jags & Mori was a decent partnership at City. It was Stones at RB who made us look weak. dlblue 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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