Tom Davies

[StevO]

I agree it should, but I asked you to name a club and players who cane through who would get in our team. I don’t watch any other clubs so I’d like to know what you see that makes us so poor at bringing players through at elite level. 

[EFC-Paul]

39 minutes ago, StevO said:

I agree it should, but I asked you to name a club and players who cane through who would get in our team. I don’t watch any other clubs so I’d like to know what you see that makes us so poor at bringing players through at elite level. 

I've thought the same there's a handful each season who get touted as potential world beaters bar that there's never many, we develop players far better then many sides have and do this fabricated bollocks we don't is nonsense 

We've won the under 23 league and under 18 league in recent years, we'll go top of the under 18 league if we win our game in hand and we are top of what's now known as the Prem 2 league which wouldn't be the case of we had a "poor development system"

It's a huge step up from those leagues and systems and I'm sure Steve has posted stats before that there's never many that make the step up

Many of the top sides buy pre made young naturally gifted players ie City Chelsea farm them out for financial gain bar Odoi who looks decent, United haven't had anyone brake through their ranks that looks anything special of late and so on 

It all simply comes down to natural talent and Tom doesn't have it to the point where he'll become a regular for a side that has any aspirations of becoming a top 6 side given time or not he doesn't have it

Who's central midfield would he get into that's above or around us? None

 

[pete0]

4 hours ago, nogs said:

Pete and Steve - why does it have to be just the Premier League? Teams all over Europe do a far, far better job at developing youth than most top flight English clubs, and guess what, English clubs fall over themselves to pay top whack for those very same players. Why shouldn't we aim for that model? That's exactly what I hope Brands was brought in for. 

And Pete - I'm not talking about academy graduates playing pro football in the lower leagues. I know how well represented we are in that regard. Thats precisely my point - why are more of those not making it at the very top level? Because if we were talking Barca, Real Madrid, Benfica, Sporting, Porto, Monaco, Ajax, PSV etc etc, it would be a much higher proportion. 

Because we're in a much tougher league. Barca if they wanted could sacrifice a place or three in their team for youth players without it having much of an affect to their league place. Whereas there's no such thing as an easy game in England you can't carry youth players in the hope of improving them it's very much sink or swim at Prem level if not drop down and then work their way up. Main thing you could do to improve the kids is incentise the loan clubs to play them or the popular thing in Italy is to sell with a repurchase price, encourages the buying club to use them and make a profit if they come good. 

Not only is our league more competitive, even the championship is as such it's a struggle to get regular football for the youth players when putting them on loan. Whereas Spanish clubs have their reserves only a division below. It's not a great standard but they're playing pros every week compared to our kids who tend to just play against the others their age. 

[Palfy]

4 hours ago, pete0 said:

Because we're in a much tougher league. Barca if they wanted could sacrifice a place or three in their team for youth players without it having much of an affect to their league place. Whereas there's no such thing as an easy game in England you can't carry youth players in the hope of improving them it's very much sink or swim at Prem level if not drop down and then work their way up. Main thing you could do to improve the kids is incentise the loan clubs to play them or the popular thing in Italy is to sell with a repurchase price, encourages the buying club to use them and make a profit if they come good. 

Not only is our league more competitive, even the championship is as such it's a struggle to get regular football for the youth players when putting them on loan. Whereas Spanish clubs have their reserves only a division below. It's not a great standard but they're playing pros every week compared to our kids who tend to just play against the others their age. 

I agree with everything you said there, and the only way I can see youth player getting a better opportunity to play in the 1st team is to limit the number of foreign players you can have in a team, and it would make more opportunities and an even playing field for all domestic clubs, but we would then suffer in the European competitions but if you want more opportunities for young players to come through that’s about the only way to go. 

[nogs]

9 hours ago, StevO said:

I agree it should, but I asked you to name a club and players who cane through who would get in our team. I don’t watch any other clubs so I’d like to know what you see that makes us so poor at bringing players through at elite level. 

I did Steve, second paragraph. Like I said, the model is abroad. And it's not just an Everton problem, look at all the debate around Chelsea right now. And in terms of building a sustainable business, Man City losing players like Jadon Sancho and Brahim Diaz for peanuts is a major blow. 

[nogs]

6 hours ago, pete0 said:

Because we're in a much tougher league. Barca if they wanted could sacrifice a place or three in their team for youth players without it having much of an affect to their league place. Whereas there's no such thing as an easy game in England you can't carry youth players in the hope of improving them it's very much sink or swim at Prem level if not drop down and then work their way up. Main thing you could do to improve the kids is incentise the loan clubs to play them or the popular thing in Italy is to sell with a repurchase price, encourages the buying club to use them and make a profit if they come good. 

Not only is our league more competitive, even the championship is as such it's a struggle to get regular football for the youth players when putting them on loan. Whereas Spanish clubs have their reserves only a division below. It's not a great standard but they're playing pros every week compared to our kids who tend to just play against the others their age. 

But that's exactly the problem, the progression routes are all wrong. But why should we be shrugging our shoulders and saying 'that's the way it is' when there's an area we could gain an advantage on our rivals? If Chelsea and Man City are losing their best youngsters to European teams - and the biggest ones too, by the way - shouldn't teams like Everton be thinking 'hang on, there's an opportunity here'? 

As Steve said, the reason why is the thinking is just too short term, from fans, the media and through to the boards. And as for Barca etc having to sacrifice league places for playing youngsters - look at their record, and Real Madrid's, for bringing academy graduates into the first team over the past decade or more, and what they have won between them. 

[nogs]

9 hours ago, EFC-Paul said:

We've won the under 23 league and under 18 league in recent years, we'll go top of the under 18 league if we win our game in hand and we are top of what's now known as the Prem 2 league which wouldn't be the case of we had a "poor development system"

It's a huge step up from those leagues and systems and I'm sure Steve has posted stats before that there's never many that make the step up

Many of the top sides buy pre made young naturally gifted players ie City Chelsea farm them out for financial gain bar Odoi who looks decent, United haven't had anyone brake through their ranks that looks anything special of late and so on 

 

Having the best U18 and U23 sides in the country doesn't mean much if a) we have a mediocre first team and b) we aren't using those assets for maximum effect from a business perspective, i.e. Bringing as many of them through as possible as elite players that carry a high transfer possible. I'd be very disappointed if that wasn't a priority for Brands. 

And as for mentioning United, well Rashford and Lingard look pretty decent to me, Liverpool have brought through Sterling (sold for £50m, we got £15m for Barkley) and now Alexander-Arnold, Spurs Kane, Winks, Walker-Peters has played a bit and another young midfielder has been playing recently... Its not all about City and Chelsea buying their way to glory, and that's not a model we can hope of competing with anyway. 

[Romey 1878]

11 minutes ago, nogs said:

Having the best U18 and U23 sides in the country doesn't mean much if a) we have a mediocre first team and b) we aren't using those assets for maximum effect from a business perspective, i.e. Bringing as many of them through as possible as elite players that carry a high transfer possible. I'd be very disappointed if that wasn't a priority for Brands. 

And as for mentioning United, well Rashford and Lingard look pretty decent to me, Liverpool have brought through Sterling (sold for £50m, we got £15m for Barkley) and now Alexander-Arnold, Spurs Kane, Winks, Walker-Peters has played a bit and another young midfielder has been playing recently... Its not all about City and Chelsea buying their way to glory, and that's not a model we can hope of competing with anyway. 

Sterling was bought from QPR in 2012. 

[Bailey]

7 hours ago, pete0 said:

Because we're in a much tougher league. Barca if they wanted could sacrifice a place or three in their team for youth players without it having much of an affect to their league place. Whereas there's no such thing as an easy game in England you can't carry youth players in the hope of improving them it's very much sink or swim at Prem level if not drop down and then work their way up. Main thing you could do to improve the kids is incentise the loan clubs to play them or the popular thing in Italy is to sell with a repurchase price, encourages the buying club to use them and make a profit if they come good. 

Not only is our league more competitive, even the championship is as such it's a struggle to get regular football for the youth players when putting them on loan. Whereas Spanish clubs have their reserves only a division below. It's not a great standard but they're playing pros every week compared to our kids who tend to just play against the others their age. 

I think that last paragraph is key. Spanish kids play against men every week so that by the time they are in the first team they are experienced. They are presumably playing in a similar way as the first team too and have the continuity of playing for their parent club, around the first team players, managers and coaches rather than being farmed out to different clubs, different managers, different tactics and then back again and into the U23s.

3 hours ago, Palfy said:

I agree with everything you said there, and the only way I can see youth player getting a better opportunity to play in the 1st team is to limit the number of foreign players you can have in a team, and it would make more opportunities and an even playing field for all domestic clubs, but we would then suffer in the European competitions but if you want more opportunities for young players to come through that’s about the only way to go. 

I think it would just reduce the quality and competitiveness of the league. All that would happen eventually is that all the clubs with the most money would hoard and stockpile more young talent from the continent as they would either become a UK citizen or qualify to play by being trained at the club for x years.

[Bailey]

The other thing to take into consideration is that these young players will get bored of being shipped around on loan time and time again. The player will want to feel settled and it takes a really good young player to hold their own in the Championship, before then taking a massive step up to play in the Premier League. The whole youth loan system needs an overhaul. Whether that be second teams, local parent/feeder clubs (eg Tranmere get first dibs on all U23 players with no fees/wages as long as they play) or something else.

[EFC-Paul]

44 minutes ago, nogs said:

Having the best U18 and U23 sides in the country doesn't mean much if a) we have a mediocre first team and b) we aren't using those assets for maximum effect from a business perspective, i.e. Bringing as many of them through as possible as elite players that carry a high transfer possible. I'd be very disappointed if that wasn't a priority for Brands. 

And as for mentioning United, well Rashford and Lingard look pretty decent to me, Liverpool have brought through Sterling (sold for £50m, we got £15m for Barkley) and now Alexander-Arnold, Spurs Kane, Winks, Walker-Peters has played a bit and another young midfielder has been playing recently... Its not all about City and Chelsea buying their way to glory, and that's not a model we can hope of competing with anyway. 

Two players for a side as renowned as United over the years for bringing youth through is hardly anything to back up a development argument especially since one is 26 and the other has had very limited playing opportunities which is part and parcel of your gripe with us 

I've not mentioned following City or Chelsea's model, the point is not many sides use the "assets to maximum effect" unless a player is capable of making the step up like Trent Arnold Winks etc and that's a very very small percentage of players pushing through 

As Pete said these sides also have much better players complimenting them throughout their sides so it won't have as big an impact bedding them in plus they are simply better than what we've got Arnold/Kenny Winks/Davies

We do have a decent youth set up the FACT is not many from any side make the transition  

[Palfy]

10 minutes ago, Bailey said:

I think that last paragraph is key. Spanish kids play against men every week so that by the time they are in the first team they are experienced. They are presumably playing in a similar way as the first team too and have the continuity of playing for their parent club, around the first team players, managers and coaches rather than being farmed out to different clubs, different managers, different tactics and then back again and into the U23s.

I think it would just reduce the quality and competitiveness of the league. All that would happen eventually is that all the clubs with the most money would hoard and stockpile more young talent from the continent as they would either become a UK citizen or qualify to play by being trained at the club for x years.

It would reduce the quality of Premier teams in Europe you wouldn’t notice it so much in the domestic leagues everyone will be playing off the same hymn sheet, also teams like Chelsea have been hoarding young talent for the last 10 years or more and still don’t give them the opportunity they always go out and buy the finished articles so there wouldn’t be any changes there. 

Personally I’m happy with the way things are now we’ve got the best league in the world, it’s the people who feel we don’t give youth a better opportunity that aren’t happy you can’t have your cake and eat it I was merely giving an opinion of what could be done to satisfy there concerns, and agreeing with PeteO the gambles to huge if you get it wrong. 

[Matt]

17 hours ago, Finn balor said:

Should have got more caps for England. His game was suited to international football. And he scored one of my all time favourite Everton goals against Larissa 

My all time favourite Everton goal by my favourite Everton player.  It’s just a beautiful move. 

[nogs]

2 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

Sterling was bought from QPR in 2012. 

He signed for Liverpool in 2010 as a 16 year old first year scholar. 

[nogs]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

Personally I’m happy with the way things are now we’ve got the best league in the world, it’s the people who feel we don’t give youth a better opportunity that aren’t happy you can’t have your cake and eat it I was merely giving an opinion of what could be done to satisfy there concerns, and agreeing with PeteO the gambles to huge if you get it wrong. 

My point Palfy is that Everton FC is not getting a slice of the cake. We have the longest history in English top flight football, but in the Premier League era, the age of mass imports of the best players from abroad, we've been also rans. Yes it's the best league in the world, but we don't win anything, so I say look at every way possible to improve how competitive we are, including what can be done to improve our conversion rate of promising youngsters into elite professionals. 

[nogs]

2 hours ago, Bailey said:

I think it would just reduce the quality and competitiveness of the league. All that would happen eventually is that all the clubs with the most money would hoard and stockpile more young talent from the continent as they would either become a UK citizen or qualify to play by being trained at the club for x years.

Might not be able to after we leave the EU. 

[nogs]

2 hours ago, EFC-Paul said:

Two players for a side as renowned as United over the years for bringing youth through is hardly anything to back up a development argument especially since one is 26 and the other has had very limited playing opportunities which is part and parcel of your gripe with us 

If you're talking about Rashford, he has played nearly 100 times for Man Utd and has 31 senior England caps. Nothing limited about that. 

[Palfy]

4 minutes ago, nogs said:

My point Palfy is that Everton FC is not getting a slice of the cake. We have the longest history in English top flight football, but in the Premier League era, the age of mass imports of the best players from abroad, we've been also rans. Yes it's the best league in the world, but we don't win anything, so I say look at every way possible to improve how competitive we are, including what can be done to improve our conversion rate of promising youngsters into elite professionals. 

It’s hard one to get right without a doubt , but there are 2 things I think I won’t see again in my lifetime which is a Leicester City winning the league and a Man Utd of the early 90s winning the league with 5-6 home grown players been blooded at the same time, but I’d love to be proved wrong and it happens. 

The most successful teams are buying success the rest are just trying to make sure they don’t go down, were where we are because of the lack of financial investment over the decades, which meant we brought youngsters through and if they come good we couldn’t keep hold of them.  Then we were given an opportunity with Moshri investing but for 2 years millions were just thrown away by poor managers on poor players, so I agree it is shit were we find ourselves but I suppose that’s the cross you have to bare being a Toffee mind you it’s getting fucking heavier with every game. 

[Finn balor]

Would have been interesting to see Morishi come in when moyes was here. 

[EFC-Paul]

56 minutes ago, nogs said:

If you're talking about Rashford, he has played nearly 100 times for Man Utd and has 31 senior England caps. Nothing limited about that. 

We are talking club football Nogs not international football 

Rashford has played 28 more senior games than Davies the vast majority of those were from the bench, if your trying to use one player who's been renowned for being miss used at club level as a gauge I'd find someone else to use as an example because it's common knowledge he's been limited to his chances 

You think our youth system is somehow not upto other clubs but you have very little to back it up when considering it's nearly the same across the board in this league 

The topic is Davies and he's not good enough no game time will alter the fact he's naturally a limited footballer 

[nogs]

3 hours ago, EFC-Paul said:

We are talking club football Nogs not international football 

Rashford has played 28 more senior games than Davies the vast majority of those were from the bench, if your trying to use one player who's been renowned for being miss used at club level as a gauge I'd find someone else to use as an example because it's common knowledge he's been limited to his chances 

You think our youth system is somehow not upto other clubs but you have very little to back it up when considering it's nearly the same across the board in this league 

The topic is Davies and he's not good enough no game time will alter the fact he's naturally a limited footballer 

No, I think our youth system is an area where we could focus on closing the gap to the top 6 because we simply cannot compete buying the quality of 'finished' players they can.

[Romey 1878]

7 hours ago, nogs said:

He signed for Liverpool in 2010 as a 16 year old first year scholar. 

So he still wasn’t made by the shite. I just got the year wrong. 

[nogs]

16 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

So he still wasn’t made by the shite. I just got the year wrong. 

Well I disagree, he progressed through their Academy in the same way as, say, Shane Duffy did through ours but played youth football elsewhere. But anyway... 

[badaids]

23 hours ago, EFC-Paul said:

The topic is Davies and he's not good enough no game time will alter the fact he's naturally a limited footballer 

You can still be ‘limited’ footballer and be an effective footballer, especially as a defensive midfielder. In fact I’d love to have some limited players that know their game and how to impose it instead of these modern players who are technically great and can play loads of roles but no idea how to impact on a game.  I think there is a very useful footballer in Tom Davies that can still be unlocked with the right coaching and development.

If it takes 2 more years to get that and he can play 300 games for club and do ‘an ossie’ then I’d totally take that, it would be massive for the club in fact. Look at what your O’Sheas and your Wes Browns and that did for united in their great teams.

[StevO]

On 13/01/2019 at 10:13, nogs said:

I did Steve, second paragraph. Like I said, the model is abroad. And it's not just an Everton problem, look at all the debate around Chelsea right now. And in terms of building a sustainable business, Man City losing players like Jadon Sancho and Brahim Diaz for peanuts is a major blow. 

You didn’t name any teams or players where I had asked  

im not bothered about the rest of the world, I’m bothered about Everton. 

[nogs]

32 minutes ago, StevO said:

You didn’t name any teams or players where I had asked  

im not bothered about the rest of the world, I’m bothered about Everton. 

Well why don't we just play Everton youngsters and not bother looking at players from the rest of the world then.  (fetches coat) 

[EFC-Paul]

7 hours ago, badaids said:

You can still be ‘limited’ footballer and be an effective footballer, especially as a defensive midfielder. In fact I’d love to have some limited players that know their game and how to impose it instead of these modern players who are technically great and can play loads of roles but no idea how to impact on a game.  I think there is a very useful footballer in Tom Davies that can still be unlocked with the right coaching and development.

If it takes 2 more years to get that and he can play 300 games for club and do ‘an ossie’ then I’d totally take that, it would be massive for the club in fact. Look at what your O’Sheas and your Wes Browns and that did for united in their great teams.

Nobody said they can't so I don't know why you've said so, I fully understand many a side have had such players he's a Dan Gosling MK2 who does a job for Bournemouth.... Also the players you've mentioned played alongside world class players there's a difference a massive one

You've used Davies and impact in the same breath I genuinely can't think of many games he's had that effect, he's also not a defensive midfielder

I don't mind having him in the squad as we currently are but he shouldn't starting games and if we progress the squad he'll likely be fazed out in my opinion

For a player to be "unlocked" you need natural raw talent he doesn't have it, what does he do or have in his locker that indicates such? Genuine question as I see next to nothing and we all see the game/players differently

 

[StevO]

1 hour ago, EFC-Paul said:

Nobody said they can't so I don't know why you've said so, I fully understand many a side have had such players he's a Dan Gosling MK2 who does a job for Bournemouth.... Also the players you've mentioned played alongside world class players there's a difference a massive one

You've used Davies and impact in the same breath I genuinely can't think of many games he's had that effect, he's also not a defensive midfielder

I don't mind having him in the squad as we currently are but he shouldn't starting games and if we progress the squad he'll likely be fazed out in my opinion

For a player to be "unlocked" you need natural raw talent he doesn't have it, what does he do or have in his locker that indicates such? Genuine question as I see next to nothing and we all see the game/players differently

 

I think too many managers who have seen him on a daily basis and put him in the side ahead of more experienced pros like Besic and Schneiderlin must have seen something to keep putting him in there. 

There must be a raw talent. 

[rubecula]

On ‎12‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 16:32, Bailey said:

The worst thing for me is that the ones that have come through have spent their careers elsewhere. Rooney, Barkley and Stones all came through the academy (loosely in the latters case), made their name and then moved on.

A very important point you have just made/pointed out.

[EFC-Paul]

6 hours ago, StevO said:

I think too many managers who have seen him on a daily basis and put him in the side ahead of more experienced pros like Besic and Schneiderlin must have seen something to keep putting him in there. 

There must be a raw talent. 

I get your point but Besic is pretty much the level at which I'm referring to with Davies just with more a little bit more about him and Morgan has been absolutely shite for some time 

For me he's been used due to us not having many other options, I'd love the lad to flip a switch and prove me wrong I just don't ever see it happening