Tom Davies

[sydneyneil]

Yeah I agree. Im not his biggest fan but he definitely gets into this side at the moment. He moves the ball quicker than schneiderlin and sig.

[plaidharper]

On 12/09/2019 at 13:47, plaidharper said:

With Finn and Palfy here.  Tom > Morgan. Not exactly the same type of player but Tom can throw in a tackle.  Things he does have that Morgan does not is that he can run with the ball, play a forward pass, and has heart.  Know who I would rather have on the pitch.

Said this before the game and exactly nothing has changed after the game.  If Silva is playing Morgan because he is better defensively then he should just look at some scorelines or tape of when Morgan plays...

[Sibdane]

Have to echo the above. I think Davies has a long way to go before establishing himself as a consistent first team starter, but Morgan has added nothing lately. Davies is my third choice at the moment with Gbamin injured.

[Bailey]

On 17/09/2019 at 14:53, plaidharper said:

Said this before the game and exactly nothing has changed after the game.  If Silva is playing Morgan because he is better defensively then he should just look at some scorelines or tape of when Morgan plays...

 

On 17/09/2019 at 16:06, Sibdane said:

Have to echo the above. I think Davies has a long way to go before establishing himself as a consistent first team starter, but Morgan has added nothing lately. Davies is my third choice at the moment with Gbamin injured.

I thought Morgan played well at the weekend. I feel as though he is a bit of a whipping boy because he just goes about his business quietly and efficiently.

[Sibdane]

17 minutes ago, Bailey said:

 

I thought Morgan played well at the weekend. I feel as though he is a bit of a whipping boy because he just goes about his business quietly and efficiently.

I didn't really think he played that well. It's true that he can kind of go unnoticed because of his role, but he just didn't seem very proactive in his passing/looking forward.

[Finn balor]

47 minutes ago, Bailey said:

 

I thought Morgan played well at the weekend. I feel as though he is a bit of a whipping boy because he just goes about his business quietly and efficiently.

Wouldn’t say efficiently. There has to be more to his game. I can’t remember the last time he contributed to a goal or something I remember. Morgan would not get into Leicester or wolves or West Ham’s team. 

[StevO]

10 hours ago, Bailey said:

 

I thought Morgan played well at the weekend. I feel as though he is a bit of a whipping boy because he just goes about his business quietly and efficiently.

I’m with you Bailey. He still hated over the training ground incident. I don’t think anyone had an issue with him before then, his drop in form came after that but he’s back to playing well for me. 
 

Creating goals and attacking play are not part of his game and not what he has ever done. 

[Romey 1878]

1 hour ago, StevO said:

I’m with you Bailey. He still hated over the training ground incident. I don’t think anyone had an issue with him before then, his drop in form came after that but he’s back to playing well for me. 
 

Creating goals and attacking play are not part of his game and not what he has ever done. 

I'm another that didn't think he had a bad game either.

For me, there are others that played much worse than him but haven't even had a mention. Iwobi was absolutely anonymous for most of the game - I'd forgot he was even playing until just before half-time. Delph was sloppy and was responsible for Digne getting booked. And those two have been voted MOTM by some for this one! While Schneiderlin , who went about his game and did what he's supposed to do, is getting stick.

[Bailey]

22 hours ago, Sibdane said:

I didn't really think he played that well. It's true that he can kind of go unnoticed because of his role, but he just didn't seem very proactive in his passing/looking forward.

Genuine question, why is it that your looking at his attacking play and marking him down for that when he contributed a lot defensively. I am probably bias the other way because I love defensive graft but for me he did his job well. They got very little joy through the middle and he was the main reason for that. When he did have the ball at his feet his was relatively safe but when the ball was on he played it and his passing to his teammates was crisp and accurate. 

22 hours ago, Finn balor said:

Wouldn’t say efficiently. There has to be more to his game. I can’t remember the last time he contributed to a goal or something I remember. Morgan would not get into Leicester or wolves or West Ham’s team. 

Why can't he contribute to them not scoring? He made one huge block in the Bournemouth game in particular as well as helping us turnover the ball on several occasions.  

I agree that he probably wouldn't but then again he wouldn't get into our team if everyone was fit. If those teams sold their best defensive midfielder, and then got 2 injuries in that position do you think they would play Schneiderlin then? I think they would.

12 hours ago, StevO said:

I’m with you Bailey. He still hated over the training ground incident. I don’t think anyone had an issue with him before then, his drop in form came after that but he’s back to playing well for me. 
 

Creating goals and attacking play are not part of his game and not what he has ever done. 

To be fair I think he is a bit of a pussy and whilst I think he is a capable player he isn't someone I would want in my side but I can still recognise and acknowledge when he has played well. For others he is a target, and also in fairness we all have those biases with certain players to differing amounts. 

I do agree though in that he is playing well and as Romey says afterward there are other players who played a hell of a lot worse.

[Sibdane]

13 minutes ago, Bailey said:

Genuine question, why is it that your looking at his attacking play and marking him down for that when he contributed a lot defensively. I am probably bias the other way because I love defensive graft but for me he did his job well. They got very little joy through the middle and he was the main reason for that. When he did have the ball at his feet his was relatively safe but when the ball was on he played it and his passing to his teammates was crisp and accurate. 

I'm not necessarily looking at his attacking play. I mean passing it forward/looking forward rather than sideways or back constantly. While I don't think he played that well I also don't think he was god awful. I just want more from him because he is capable of more as was shown in his first 6 months here. Maybe I need to go back and revisit the game, but I just didn't see much from him to say that he "played well." Safe, maybe.

[Bailey]

7 minutes ago, Sibdane said:

I'm not necessarily looking at his attacking play. I mean passing it forward/looking forward rather than sideways or back constantly. While I don't think he played that well I also don't think he was god awful. I just want more from him because he is capable of more as was shown in his first 6 months here. Maybe I need to go back and revisit the game, but I just didn't see much from him to say that he "played well." Safe, maybe.

I definitely agree that he is safe, that is him all over. Sometimes I would say afraid! 

From a completely statistical point of view* he played two less "forward" passes than Siggy did in all directions. He played 3 more "final third" passes than Delph. 

*pinch of salt required.

[Sibdane]

6 minutes ago, Bailey said:

I definitely agree that he is safe, that is him all over. Sometimes I would say afraid! 

From a completely statistical point of view* he played two less "forward" passes than Siggy did in all directions. He played 3 more "final third" passes than Delph. 

*pinch of salt required.

I don't know how telling that is after that match.

[StevO]

3 hours ago, Bailey said:

Genuine question, why is it that your looking at his attacking play and marking him down for that when he contributed a lot defensively. I am probably bias the other way because I love defensive graft but for me he did his job well. They got very little joy through the middle and he was the main reason for that. When he did have the ball at his feet his was relatively safe but when the ball was on he played it and his passing to his teammates was crisp and accurate. 

Why can't he contribute to them not scoring? He made one huge block in the Bournemouth game in particular as well as helping us turnover the ball on several occasions.  

I agree that he probably wouldn't but then again he wouldn't get into our team if everyone was fit. If those teams sold their best defensive midfielder, and then got 2 injuries in that position do you think they would play Schneiderlin then? I think they would.

To be fair I think he is a bit of a pussy and whilst I think he is a capable player he isn't someone I would want in my side but I can still recognise and acknowledge when he has played well. For others he is a target, and also in fairness we all have those biases with certain players to differing amounts. 

I do agree though in that he is playing well and as Romey says afterward there are other players who played a hell of a lot worse.

Pretty much agree with all of that. 
 

On the other posts, safe is the best way to sum him up. He keeps possession, often played the simple/easy ball to the man next to him. That’s what I want from with the ball, he’s not going to turn into Iniesta anytime soon. Just win it and give it to a blue shirt. 

[plaidharper]

The extended highlights from the Sheffield Wednesday game were not kind to Tom on the Everton Youtube channel.  Unless he had some great moments not shown, do not see him displacing Morgan with that performance.  Was really hoping he would as I am a big fan but you need to show up when given a chance.  Hopefully JPG and Gomes heal up quick.

[Romey 1878]

1 hour ago, plaidharper said:

The extended highlights from the Sheffield Wednesday game were not kind to Tom on the Everton Youtube channel.  Unless he had some great moments not shown, do not see him displacing Morgan with that performance.  Was really hoping he would as I am a big fan but you need to show up when given a chance.  Hopefully JPG and Gomes heal up quick.

Colour me surprised. Had his chance last season to perform against Lincoln in the cup and he did absolutely nothing with the opportunity. As bad as Schneiderlin has been at times I’d still have him ahead of Tom because when Morgan is on it he does have quality. Tom, on the other hand, doesn’t have much going for him other than he moves. 

[markjazzbassist]

yep, people said i was an idiot for wanting him loaned out or sold, but he offers nothing on the bench, maybe he could become a decent championship player and make us a few quid.  i know he's a boyhood blue, but so are a bunch of the academy kids, just cause his uncle is famous doesn't mean he deserves any more of a chance.

[Bailey]

To be fair to Tom the highlights made everyone look shite. Gaps all over the place, midfield regularly outnumbered. Some real school boy stuff, especially from Delph who just let his man run past him at that free kick. Thats why Pep was happy to let him go for fuck all.

[StevO]

Maybe a flat midfield three, rather than with a number ten, might suit Tom better. 

[Finn balor]

Mason mount? That’s the difference. 

[nogs]

So if we do say Davies isn't good enough and wipe our hands of him, it still begs the question - why are so few lads from our supposedly world class academy not progressing into the first team? To me there's a serious developmental issue there, especially as over the past three years we have wasted a criminal amount of money on players who just aren't up to it. I just think there's something wrong when we're paying Schneiderlin £100k+ a week and then you have a lad like Lundstram who has now played in every division of English professional football and is now starting every game in the Premier League for another club, and doing pretty well at it. Clearly there was always a player there, why did it take other coaches at other clubs to bring it out of him? There's other examples too, Forshaw at Leeds, Ledson at PNE - could both be playing Prem football next season. 

I'm not saying 'oh we have to play Davies so he progresses' by the way, coz you can only play players on form and he's obviously been struggling for a while. But I would have though the glass ceiling between our excellent academy and the first team is something Brands is looking at very carefully, especially as we have developed a knack of wasting millions on mediocre players. 

[Bailey]

I think there is a massive amount of difference in quality between Davies and the other two you mentioned. Those two still wouldn't play for us if they were here now. 

You also need to look at the bigger picture. How many players the say top 8 have home grown lads that hold down a regular starting spot and have done for a season or two. Some come in, look decent and then get sold off once they have been found out. Off the top of my head I can only think of Trent and Kane. Winks is there or thereabouts and so is Gomez. Foden may do when Silva retires but he also might get sold off too. Abraham, Tomori and Mount may be the current flavour of the month but there is no guarantee that will continue. 

With Davies you also have to look at whether he fits the managers style and I think its safe to say he doesn't. He isn't a holding midfielder, and he isn't a 10. You want Tom roaming from box to box, he isn't good enough with the ball to dictate the game, and he isn't creative or technical enough to be a 10. He is all about his movement, getting around the pitch, putting a tackle in and then breaking forward.  He should be learning how to get into the box late to finish off flowing moves. It doesn't matter how good the kid is if he doesn't fit what the manager wants.

[StevO]

10 hours ago, nogs said:

So if we do say Davies isn't good enough and wipe our hands of him, it still begs the question - why are so few lads from our supposedly world class academy not progressing into the first team? To me there's a serious developmental issue there, especially as over the past three years we have wasted a criminal amount of money on players who just aren't up to it. I just think there's something wrong when we're paying Schneiderlin £100k+ a week and then you have a lad like Lundstram who has now played in every division of English professional football and is now starting every game in the Premier League for another club, and doing pretty well at it. Clearly there was always a player there, why did it take other coaches at other clubs to bring it out of him? There's other examples too, Forshaw at Leeds, Ledson at PNE - could both be playing Prem football next season. 

I'm not saying 'oh we have to play Davies so he progresses' by the way, coz you can only play players on form and he's obviously been struggling for a while. But I would have though the glass ceiling between our excellent academy and the first team is something Brands is looking at very carefully, especially as we have developed a knack of wasting millions on mediocre players. 

Lads don’t make it because they aren’t good enough. But managers don’t get the chance either. We want instant results. 
 

Ask yourself, if you were Silva now and you’re under pressure would you risk the kids when it could cost you your job? 
 

When we don’t beat a team we boo them off, us fans are too impatient. Every time we have a prospect we expect them to be world class, we compare them to Rooney and when they aren’t that level we turn on them anyway. 

[pete0]

14 minutes ago, StevO said:

Lads don’t make it because they aren’t good enough. But managers don’t get the chance either. We want instant results. 
 

Ask yourself, if you were Silva now and you’re under pressure would you risk the kids when it could cost you your job? 
 

When we don’t beat a team we boo them off, us fans are too impatient. Every time we have a prospect we expect them to be world class, we compare them to Rooney and when they aren’t that level we turn on them anyway. 

The performances from Coleman, Keane, Gana and Sigurdssen were all well below what any kid could offer for chunks of last season. I'd much rather give a kid the minutes than freeze them out to play seniors who aren't playing well enough to justify their place in the team. Kenny, Holgate and Davies all should have had more minutes last year, both have put in performances at this level better than what the seniors were providing. I'd have kept Vlasic too over Sig who is just not involved enough. Similarly Besic was good enough too. 

We had options, the manager just chose not to. Barmy when you think we barely won a game were the opposition turned up. 

[nogs]

Wow for once I agree with Pete! 

My point Steve is why, if we consistently have one of the best U23 teams in the country, are more of them not making it through to the first team? I don't really buy the not good enough argument. I do agree with the short term outlook that results from managers being under such pressure for their jobs. 

But my gripe is this. This is third season running we've got a two, three, four months into the season and things are looking far from pretty. And look at the spine of the team that hast started the past few matches - Keane, Schneiderlin, Sigurdsson. Exactly the same as when we fell apart under Koeman two years ago. I just can't get my head around that. Yeah I know Gomes and Gbamin are out, but we have no idea if Gbamin will turn out any good anyway. If Davies isn't good enough when we keep losing with the current starting midfield, he should be out on loan learning his trade. Same for Holgate, coz Keane is back to being bullied again. Our squad is still wafer thin, so if you aren't going to give a few lads a chance when you have a few injuries, what are you going to do? I don't get not charging a losing side, whatever the size of your squad. 

BTW Steve I agree with you on the impatience of the fans. I think it's a unique Everton problem too and it bugs the hell out of me. 

[nogs]

3 hours ago, Bailey said:

You also need to look at the bigger picture. How many players the say top 8 have home grown lads that hold down a regular starting spot and have done for a season or two. Some come in, look decent and then get sold off once they have been found out. Off the top of my head I can only think of Trent and Kane. Winks is there or thereabouts and so is Gomez. Foden may do when Silva retires but he also might get sold off too. Abraham, Tomori and Mount may be the current flavour of the month but there is no guarantee that will continue. 

With Davies you also have to look at whether he fits the managers style and I think its safe to say he doesn't. He isn't a holding midfielder, and he isn't a 10. You want Tom roaming from box to box, he isn't good enough with the ball to dictate the game, and he isn't creative or technical enough to be a 10. He is all about his movement, getting around the pitch, putting a tackle in and then breaking forward.

I don't agree with your first point. Man City, Liverpool, to a lesser extent Spurs, you can understand lads struggling to come through the ranks because they have world class first XIs and more. Yet you've named examples of young players making it at each of them. Man Utd and Chelsea are kind of forced to play loads of homegrown players at the moment for different reasons. At the start of the season I was genuinely hopeful we'd finish higher than both. I don't see that happening now. Arsenal have historically been good at bringing one or two youngsters at a time through. Leicester are regularly playing lads that have come through their youth system and look a much better side than us. So no I don't think you're 'bigger picture' holds at moment, especially as we're struggling to cling on to being a top 8 club. 

I've discussed elsewhere that I don't like the system we play with Sigurdsson. I agree it doesn't suit Davies, he'd work much better in a flat 3.

[Bailey]

1 hour ago, nogs said:

I don't agree with your first point. Man City, Liverpool, to a lesser extent Spurs, you can understand lads struggling to come through the ranks because they have world class first XIs and more. Yet you've named examples of young players making it at each of them. Man Utd and Chelsea are kind of forced to play loads of homegrown players at the moment for different reasons. At the start of the season I was genuinely hopeful we'd finish higher than both. I don't see that happening now. Arsenal have historically been good at bringing one or two youngsters at a time through. Leicester are regularly playing lads that have come through their youth system and look a much better side than us. So no I don't think you're 'bigger picture' holds at moment, especially as we're struggling to cling on to being a top 8 club. 

I've discussed elsewhere that I don't like the system we play with Sigurdsson. I agree it doesn't suit Davies, he'd work much better in a flat 3.

The point is that I am referring to 8 clubs and you can name the players in the last 5 years on one hand. The last Arsenal player I can think of is Wilshere and that was a while ago now too. I can't think of any Leicester players... is Chilwell an academy graduate? Even West Ham... Anyone? By all means throw names at me because I can't think of any other nailed down regulars. They seem to be like us, come through, play in spells and then fall into the background. 

[nogs]

12 hours ago, Bailey said:

The point is that I am referring to 8 clubs and you can name the players in the last 5 years on one hand. The last Arsenal player I can think of is Wilshere and that was a while ago now too. I can't think of any Leicester players... is Chilwell an academy graduate? Even West Ham... Anyone? By all means throw names at me because I can't think of any other nailed down regulars. They seem to be like us, come through, play in spells and then fall into the background. 

But what does the last 5 years matter? I'm talking about now and the fact that young players can't get in our side even though we're not very good!

Leicester - Chilwell, Barnes, Choudary

Chelsea - Abrahams, Mount, Tomori, Loftus-Cheek

Man Utd - Rashford, Lingard, McTominay, Tuanzebe, Greenwood, (Pogba) 

Arsenal - Maitland-Niles, Nelson, Willock, Saka have all played in the Prem this year. 

I cba looking up West Ham but when you add Liverpool, City and Spurs, that's 7 clubs. 

Anyway, my point is not to get drawn into a debate about whether our current youngsters are good enough for the Prem. IMO we are stood still as a club atm, potentially in danger of going backwards, and two key areas I think always need looking at when that happens is youth development and recruitment. For one thing, I don't think there's enough competition for places in our squad to keep certain 'senior pros' on their toes, and for that reason alone I'd like to see more youngsters coming through. 

 

[Shukes]

Nogs, I watch my under 8 team play and can pick out two, maybe three players that have a chance of making it.

I watch a lad called Lewis give his all to try to get back to make a tackle, he has that look on his face of not giving up, he looks like he will cry when they concede. This lad has a hunger that I don’t see in many of our team. 

Richarlison has it. Pickford has it, and Maybe Delpth. I don’t see that fight in any others.

Yet I watch Liverpool, City, Arsenal and many of the lower teams.... and I see that same look on 75% of their team.

[nogs]

1 hour ago, Shukes said:

Nogs, I watch my under 8 team play and can pick out two, maybe three players that have a chance of making it.

I watch a lad called Lewis give his all to try to get back to make a tackle, he has that look on his face of not giving up, he looks like he will cry when they concede. This lad has a hunger that I don’t see in many of our team. 

Richarlison has it. Pickford has it, and Maybe Delpth. I don’t see that fight in any others.

Yet I watch Liverpool, City, Arsenal and many of the lower teams.... and I see that same look on 75% of their team.

So we're either signing the wrong type of characters or our last three managers have been utterly uninspiring

[StevO]

17 hours ago, nogs said:

Wow for once I agree with Pete! 

My point Steve is why, if we consistently have one of the best U23 teams in the country, are more of them not making it through to the first team? I don't really buy the not good enough argument. I do agree with the short term outlook that results from managers being under such pressure for their jobs. 

But my gripe is this. This is third season running we've got a two, three, four months into the season and things are looking far from pretty. And look at the spine of the team that hast started the past few matches - Keane, Schneiderlin, Sigurdsson. Exactly the same as when we fell apart under Koeman two years ago. I just can't get my head around that. Yeah I know Gomes and Gbamin are out, but we have no idea if Gbamin will turn out any good anyway. If Davies isn't good enough when we keep losing with the current starting midfield, he should be out on loan learning his trade. Same for Holgate, coz Keane is back to being bullied again. Our squad is still wafer thin, so if you aren't going to give a few lads a chance when you have a few injuries, what are you going to do? I don't get not charging a losing side, whatever the size of your squad. 

BTW Steve I agree with you on the impatience of the fans. I think it's a unique Everton problem too and it bugs the hell out of me. 

They are the only reasons I can think of why they don’t make it nogs. I can’t see any other reasons, can you?

i think managers are scared, I really do. 
 

I hope that isn’t just an Everton problem, but it bugs me too mate.