Martinez - Direction?

[markjazzbassist]

If we go out the cup, people will really start looking at league position and at present it doesn't look good. What's annoying me most is he doesn't seem to be saying we need to improve. There's lots of excuses like it's a young team etc. it's almost as though he's trying to cover his tracks before the season ends. What is a "bad" season in his eyes? A relegation fight? The players we have we should be well up there league. There's major problems whether people want to admit it or not.

 

people will be upset if we go out the League Cup but there is still the FA cup. I'm saying let's see how those 2 cups go and the rest of the year. Make a change in the summer if we need to. He's done some great things, he's really solid with signings and youngsters, just needs a better tactical approach and to bench players that aren't performing.

[chalkpie]

 

..... just needs a better tactical approach and to bench players that aren't performing.

 

Wake me up when this happens.

[Cornish Steve]

Just tries to be overly positive I think. Us British love to hear a good whinge and tantrum sometimes...he leaves a void there!!! I'm not to arsed what he says...its on the pitch for me. The defence is where I'm getting pissed off with him.

 

That's very true. It's one of the big big differences I noticed when moving to another country. We're never happy unless something is wrong!

 

The positive side of that, I suppose, is that we aren't prepared to live to second-best.

[Shukes]

Haven't hislast three interviews been him saying it's not good enough and that we need to improve?

Not sure what you have been watching but you have obviously been missing the after match interviews.

[Newty82]

Haven't hislast three interviews been him saying it's not good enough and that we need to improve?

Not sure what you have been watching but you have obviously been missing the after match interviews.

He has said this in a number of interviews.

 

He knows exactly what is letting this team down.

 

It's upto him to sort it out. This is the real test for him now. He must know that if he sorts the back out, he's onto a winner.

 

We have shown vs Spurs that we can defend as a unit...but we sacrificed a lot of forward play for that.

 

I really hope he does sort it.

[Matt]

It's a little deja vu of last season, except this season were playing some cracking attacking play. The balance will come in the next few weeks and we'll see us climb up the table and make up the 6 or so points with the top 5

[adziom]

Pretty much. When you read comments on Facebook posts, like game updates, news etc, the most common and most 'Liked' posts are those against Martinez. Quite alarming how many are turning against him.

 

That's probably more of a promising sign for Roberto because the people who comment on Facebook and like other people's comments are quite often complete numpties, to put it politely. I wouldn't make a judgement based on what you see on Facebook about how much of the fan base are still on his side. The atmosphere at Goodison has been tetchy lately but that's nothing new.

 

The fans need to sod off with having a go at our own players in the middle of a match though. Fair enough if someone's wandering around scratching their balls but if it's Howard trying (even if he's being shit) to catch a cross or a 21 year old lad trying to follow the manager's tactics just a little bit too much to the letter, it's not exactly going to help having the crowd on their back.

 

As for the "top 4 vs a cup" comments, the actual quote I've seen is that the club have a better chance of keeping your Lukakus and Stones' if we finish in the top 4 than if we win the League Cup, and anyone who disagrees with that needs their head checking because all these players seem to care about these days is moving to a Champions League side so that they can play in 4-6 underwhelming ties against FC Basel, Ludogorets and the occasional Barcelona or Bayern Munich each season.

[nogs]

 

I get what he's saying but it could be taken in multiple ways.

 

- He genuinely believes top 4 is more important.

- He's resigned to losing the big young stars.

- He's softening the blow of a poor Carling Cup tie performance, to concentrate on the league.

I'm glad he recognises just how high the stakes are. The thing is, maybe the Moyes side did have a 'ceiling' as he puts it, but he is admitting his approach may achieve nothing better. Having all of these young, exciting kids is fine, but right now we sit midtable precisely because they don't know how to win games, and as he admits, they aren't exactly about to hang about at mid-table Everton to learn how to become winners when they get courted by the creme de la creme. In other words, he has taken a big gamble and he now sees it as win or bust. If the likes of Stones, Lukaku and Deuleufeu do leave, his project falls apart and we're no better off than we were three years ago.

[Matt]

That's probably more of a promising sign for Roberto wbecause the people who comment on Facebook and like other people's comments are quite often complete numpties, to put it politely. I wouldn't make a judgement based on what you see on Facebook about how much of the fan base are still on his side. The atmosphere at Goodison has been tetchy lately but that's nothing new.

 

The fans need to sod off with having a go at our own players in the middle of a match though. Fair enough if someone's wandering around scratching their balls but if it's Howard trying (even if he's being shit) to catch a cross or a 21 year old lad trying to follow the manager's tactics just a little bit too much to the letter, it's not exactly going to help having the crowd on their back.

 

As for the "top 4 vs a cup" comments, the actual quote I've seen is that the club have a better chance of keeping your Lukakus and Stones' if we finish in the top 4 than if we win the League Cup, and anyone who disagrees with that needs their head checking because all these players seem to care about these days is moving to a Champions League side so that they can play in 4-6 underwhelming ties against FC Basel, Ludogorets and the occasional Barcelona or Bayern Munich each season.

great post

[Finn balor]

Don't understand why he doesn't make changes and go all out for the kill. Even if we go a goal up he keeps it the same why not grab the inative?

[Shukes]

Don't understand why he doesn't make changes and go all out for the kill. Even if we go a goal up he keeps it the same why not grab the inative?

Makes no sense mate.

You pick a team that you think can score goals.

You get a goal to take the lead with that line up, so it worked. Then you change it?

You keep that line up together while it's working.

 

Make changes when you need to change the game or for injurys.

[Cornish Steve]

Maybe we should take a step back a moment and not just react to this game or that game. Knee-jerk reactions never lead to wise decisions.

 

1) We're building a very strong young team for the future. Can you think of any other team that is so well stocked with young talent? In a year or two's time, we're going to look back with delight at some of the current transfer dealings. And these young players could be together for a decade. Just think of that.

 

2) We're developing talent by offering them the freedom to make mistakes. As others have posted in another thread, do we honestly believe that David Moyes, or many other managers, would allow Stones to do something that costs us a game? They'd have received a tongue-lashing, not encouragement. Long-term view is so much more important that short-term. Every one of us learns the most by making mistakes - and having our peers support us during those times.

 

3) Another part of developing young players is allowing them to play alongside older, experienced players. Stones is learning from Jagielka. McCarthy and Besic are learning from Barry. Yes, Lukaku is learning from Kone. This is a team in transition.

 

4) We're also allowing young talent to play in the lower leagues. That didn't happen previously to anywhere near the same extent. And this provides us with visibility, and maybe first dibs, to potential diamonds in the rough at those clubs.

 

5) We have a great working relationship with Barcelona. Would we have secured the signing of Deulofeu with any other manager? And I can see this beginning to happen with other European clubs. (Just look at the praise heaped on Grasshopper by Martinez for their "professional dealings.")

 

IMO, we should be looking more at the long-term, less at the short-term. Do we really want to throw all these benefits aside in a quest for some sort of quick fix? Not at all! Martinez' direction is long-term as much as it is short-term. This is what it takes to build a legacy. And a little patience.

[MC11]

Maybe we should take a step back a moment and not just react to this game or that game. Knee-jerk reactions never lead to wise decisions.

 

1) We're building a very strong young team for the future. Can you think of any other team that is so well stocked with young talent? In a year or two's time, we're going to look back with delight at some of the current transfer dealings. And these young players could be together for a decade. Just think of that.

 

2) We're developing talent by offering them the freedom to make mistakes. As others have posted in another thread, do we honestly believe that David Moyes, or many other managers, would allow Stones to do something that costs us a game? They'd have received a tongue-lashing, not encouragement. Long-term view is so much more important that short-term. Every one of us learns the most by making mistakes - and having our peers support us during those times.

 

3) Another part of developing young players is allowing them to play alongside older, experienced players. Stones is learning from Jagielka. McCarthy and Besic are learning from Barry. Yes, Lukaku is learning from Kone. This is a team in transition.

 

4) We're also allowing young talent to play in the lower leagues. That didn't happen previously to anywhere near the same extent. And this provides us with visibility, and maybe first dibs, to potential diamonds in the rough at those clubs.

 

5) We have a great working relationship with Barcelona. Would we have secured the signing of Deulofeu with any other manager? And I can see this beginning to happen with other European clubs. (Just look at the praise heaped on Grasshopper by Martinez for their "professional dealings.")

 

IMO, we should be looking more at the long-term, less at the short-term. Do we really want to throw all these benefits aside in a quest for some sort of quick fix? Not at all! Martinez' direction is long-term as much as it is short-term. This is what it takes to build a legacy. And a little patience.

It all sounds very logical Steve. But you're missing the key component.

 

Can we keep all these young players by finishing 11th for 3 seasons on the trot? Highly doubtful. To keep them we need to be up there competing.

[Cornish Steve]

It all sounds very logical Steve. But you're missing the key component.

 

Can we keep all these young players by finishing 11th for 3 seasons on the trot? Highly doubtful. To keep them we need to be up there competing.

 

That is, indeed, part of the challenge. Maybe it's the most important question right now, and only time will tell. If I was a young player, though, such a long-term vision would be important. In the job market in general, it's well accepted that we choose jobs based on the challenge and the environment far more often than because of a higher wage. Will that apply here, when career spans are shorter? I don't know.

[markjazzbassist]

great points Steve and MC. That's why i think it's vital to get some sort of European Competition. Win either League or FA Cup and get Europa or get our league form back and get Europa or CL. That's the only way people will stay like Lukaku, Stones, Gerry, etc.

[MikeO]

It all sounds very logical Steve. But you're missing the key component.

 

Can we keep all these young players by finishing 11th for 3 seasons on the trot? Highly doubtful. To keep them we need to be up there competing.

 

You really believe that the team you watched last night is going to finish bottom half this season, and again next? I don't.

 

Plus they're all under contract so we can keep them if we choose to, as we proved with Stones in the Summer.

[Gatesy]

The fact of the matter is that this season is wide open anyone can still finish anywhere we are 9 points from 4th and 10 from the relegation zone... A few games can make a huge difference so I believe we are still in with a good chance of European football and even Champions League if we start stringing some wins together... This is the best team we have had in many years and if last night was anything to go off the rest of this season could be something special!

[Btay]

You really believe that the team you watched last night is going to finish bottom half this season, and again next? I don't.

 

Plus they're all under contract so we can keep them if we choose to, as we proved with Stones in the Summer.

Exactly this. If we play the same standard of football as last night for the next month, we will be around top 4 and have a final at wembley

[jofanon]

The thing with last night is that it didn't feel like a Moyeseque smash and grab.

 

We outplayed them in large parts; we didn't just try and nick a goal and then try and just hold on

 

I think we have a team that can really compete; I just think we are a manager and a bit of squad depth short.

[MikeO]

The thing with last night is that it didn't feel like a Moyeseque smash and grab.

 

We outplayed them in large parts; we didn't just try and nick a goal and then try and just hold on

 

I think we have a team that can really compete; I just think we are a manager and a bit of squad depth short.

 

Doesn't your third line contradict the first two ?

 

You think the team played like that despite the manager and not because of him?

[Sideliner]

i am still of the opinion that Martinez can develop the Everton squad into regular top 5 contenders with a little bit more money and with a little bit more courage from his side.

He needs to develop with the squad and learn from his mistakes as well -

i would like to see him being more adventurous with his substitutions and his strategic changes should be more pro-active than reactive.

His loyalty to some of the older players must not cloud his judgement if he wants to be seen as progressive.

Yes we bossed large parts of last nights game against a champion's league side and that was good to see - the real test will come in 3 weeks time with the return match.

He needs to get rid of the dead wood in the squad and find us a few more young guns with high ambitions and no fear in their hearts and use them from the bench

[Finn balor]

We are seriously a goalkeeper a playmaker and another forward short of title contenders I genuinely believe that.

[MC11]

 

You really believe that the team you watched last night is going to finish bottom half this season, and again next? I don't.

 

Plus they're all under contract so we can keep them if we choose to, as we proved with Stones in the Summer.

If we carry on getting the results we have we'll finish in the bottom half. We should have this conversation come May Mike.

 

I personally think the ceiling is 8th now. We'll be between 8th and 12th

[chalkpie]

i am still of the opinion that Martinez can develop the Everton squad into regular top 5 contenders with a little bit more money and with a little bit more courage from his side.

He needs to develop with the squad and learn from his mistakes as well -

i would like to see him being more adventurous with his substitutions and his strategic changes should be more pro-active than reactive.

His loyalty to some of the older players must not cloud his judgement if he wants to be seen as progressive.

Yes we bossed large parts of last nights game against a champion's league side and that was good to see - the real test will come in 3 weeks time with the return match.

He needs to get rid of the dead wood in the squad and find us a few more young guns with high ambitions and no fear in their hearts and use them from the bench

 

Amen to that.

[jofanon]

 

Doesn't your third line contradict the first two ?

 

You think the team played like that despite the manager and not because of him?

Yes perhaps a little!

 

The good thing about Martinez is that the team try to compete rather than just acting like a small club and eeking out a win. Because of the talent in the team this will, on occasion, inspire a great performance.

 

However...

 

I think Martinez has several big flaws that won't let him transition ambition to results on a regular basis. He can't set up a defense and he religiously sticks to players such as Howard no matter what is happening.

[London Blue]

The team has been produced very inconsistent performances this year, from the victories at Southampton and against Chelsea to poor games against Bournemouth and Stoke.

 

Part of the reason is a defense that is under performing, I think as we have two young center backs, one of whom is playing his first season in the premier league. They miss Jags experience. They are learning and will get better. A poor season from Howard has I think undermined the defense. We looked so much better with Rubles.

 

I think our midfield looks allot better with the dynamism of Cleverley, Besic and Barkley, with Dela playing almost as a free winger switching flanks. This has not been available much due to injury.

 

Lukaku has been a revelation.

 

I guess what I am saying is that a side evolves as the season progresses, in the last 2 games we have hit on a very dynamic side that defends allot better. If we can continue in this vain we can really put a run together and climb the table. I think Martinez is building a real squad of youth and quality and some of the signings we have made look to a bright future.

 

If we can get a new keeper, Yarmolenko or equivalent and a new right back we can have a real force.

 

I trust Martinez, and the team.

[Cornish Steve]

We looked so much better with Rubles.

 

Isn't that the young Russian kid?

[DavisJD]

The shock loss to teams of lesser quality happen, this is the Prem, this is why it's the best league in the world, it's competitive, it's unpredictable.

 

If we had closed out a couple more games late on, how different would our season look with and extra 4 or 6 points.... Top 6-7 and in distance of a top 4 place.

 

We have missed the experienced players this year, against City, with 85 mins on the clock, Baines made the most of some contact, ate a couple of minutes off the clock. Osman was standing over free kicks, in the refs ear, slowing things down, stopping momentum building for a city comeback. With things calm, the team responded with 5 minutes of excellent possession play.

 

We have missed some key experienced players this year, in a inexperienced team. This isn't a glaring problem, it's a direction the club is going in, and it's only the start of that journey, it needs time, not a new manager.

 

Off field Martinez has being epic, majority of signings have being excellent, he gives youth a chance rather than playing senior players out of position. A gripe from the Moyes era.

Everton's youth structure is going from good to excellent, with consistent new signings, direction and opportunity.

 

While I'd love Everton to win the league this year, and won't be happy until we do, I am very happy with the direction this club is heading in.

 

I back Martinez.

 

 

The club however, needs to do a much better job on there international footprint. The premier league is a global business now, Everton does the local community very well from what I see from Australia, but it's engagement and marketing to a global audience is a long way from where it needs to be for growth and investment that's needed to compete consistantly for titles.

This is not a sack the chairman statement, its find a new Chief Marketing Officer, with pedigree and success in a multinational company.

[Romey 1878]

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/jan/07/roberto-martinez-everton-lukaku-stones

[Guest rusty747]

'One swallow does not a summer make' but credit where it is due. If we can add some consistency and reliability at the back we may have stumbled on a winning formula.

 

Whatever formation we play, Besic has to start.

Edited January 8, 2016 by rusty747