Hafnia Posted February 18, 2016 Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 Shane Duffy was a yard dog at best Haf. That's why he's playing in the lower divisions. Again those signings came in because we didn't have a pot to piss in. If we're going to relate to Martinez.... The Caldwell brothers anyone? Possibly the worst centre halfs to ply their trade in the PL and yes Martinez brought them in. Duffy had just had man of the match, he was dropped after a good game for a right back. Maybe duffy is a lower league player because he got to 23 and only had reserve ream experience barring a loan. The point remains, do I think stones would have got his chance under moyes? No is the answer. At Wigan Martinez was restricted to low wage players. Johnny heitinga was on more a week than his whole wigan back 4 put together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted February 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 Duffy had just had man of the match, he was dropped after a good game for a right back. Maybe duffy is a lower league player because he got to 23 and only had reserve ream experience barring a loan. The point remains, do I think stones would have got his chance under moyes? No is the answer. At Wigan Martinez was restricted to low wage players. Johnny heitinga was on more a week than his whole wigan back 4 put together. That's my point though. You mention Senderos and Gardner, they were brought in as backup. Mainly because they cost nothing and would be on cheap wages. You can't put those signings against him.... We didn't have a pot to piss in. Heitinga was a big name and wasn't used enough IMO. He formed a decent partnership with Distin when jags got injured. Shame he was dropped again markjazzbassist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted February 18, 2016 Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 Haf just has an agenda against Moyes. He made plenty of great signings (Fellaini, Mirallas, Stones, Naisy on a free, Coleman, Pienaar, Saha on Free, Baines, Jags, Lescott, etc) and did plenty well with youth (Wayne Rooney, Jack Rodwell anyone?). But MC is right, he didn't have any money it was always buy to sell. Also the vast majority of our whole youth teams were signed under him, so garbutt, ledson, etc are his ilk as well. slate the man's record of not winning trophies all you want but with what he had to work with he did an excellent job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted February 18, 2016 Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 Moyes took us a far as he could (Rome pre first Carthaginian war) Put that way, Roberto's era began with "veni vidi spopondi". London Blue 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Blue Posted February 18, 2016 Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 Put that way, Roberto's era began with "veni vidi spopondi". Perfect response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 18, 2016 Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 Haf just has an agenda against Moyes. He made plenty of great signings (Fellaini, Mirallas, Stones, Naisy on a free, Coleman, Pienaar, Saha on Free, Baines, Jags, Lescott, etc) and did plenty well with youth (Wayne Rooney, Jack Rodwell anyone?). But MC is right, he didn't have any money it was always buy to sell. Also the vast majority of our whole youth teams were signed under him, so garbutt, ledson, etc are his ilk as well. slate the man's record of not winning trophies all you want but with what he had to work with he did an excellent job. Sorry but that's looking at his reign with an eye-patch on so you only see one side, you seemingly have a pro-Moyes agenda. Senderos, Wright, Van der Meyde, Drenthe, Kroldrup, Bily off the top of my head, he needed to be talked into Stones by a scout and eventually took the "risk". How many "prospect" players failed? Kissock, Vidarsson, Baxter, Mustafi, Forshaw, etc etc ad infinitum. No guarantee Ledson or Garbutt will have a future with us. He had very little to do with the development of Rooney, and look at how great Rodwell turned out to be. Romey 1878 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Blue Posted February 18, 2016 Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 Haf just has an agenda against Moyes. He made plenty of great signings (Fellaini, Mirallas, Stones, Naisy on a free, Coleman, Pienaar, Saha on Free, Baines, Jags, Lescott, etc) and did plenty well with youth (Wayne Rooney, Jack Rodwell anyone?). But MC is right, he didn't have any money it was always buy to sell. Also the vast majority of our whole youth teams were signed under him, so garbutt, ledson, etc are his ilk as well. slate the man's record of not winning trophies all you want but with what he had to work with he did an excellent job. Yes he made great signings, but he also had his failures, Billy, Van Der Meyde, Beatie, Kroldrp etc. Overall he made very good signings. Yes he bought good young players as well, but hindered their development by failing to give them the opportunity to learn by playing in the first team. Hand on heart do you really think he would have let Galloway, Barkley, Stones, play in the first team, would he of signed Jerry or Lukaku - no, he would not. MikeO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Blue Posted February 18, 2016 Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 Sorry but that's looking at his reign with an eye-patch on so you only see one side, you seemingly have a pro-Moyes agenda. Senderos, Wright, Van der Meyde, Drenthe, Kroldrup, Bily off the top of my head, he needed to be talked into Stones by a scout and eventually took the "risk". How many "prospect" players failed? Kissock, Vidarsson, Baxter, Mustafi, Forshaw, etc etc ad infinitum. No guarantee Ledson or Garbutt will have a future with us. He had very little to do with the development of Rooney, and look at how great Rodwell turned out to be. Damn it you beat me to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 Sorry but that's looking at his reign with an eye-patch on so you only see one side, you seemingly have a pro-Moyes agenda. Senderos, Wright, Van der Meyde, Drenthe, Kroldrup, Bily off the top of my head, he needed to be talked into Stones by a scout and eventually took the "risk". How many "prospect" players failed? Kissock, Vidarsson, Baxter, Mustafi, Forshaw, etc etc ad infinitum. No guarantee Ledson or Garbutt will have a future with us. He had very little to do with the development of Rooney, and look at how great Rodwell turned out to be. Yes exactly just like Roberto. Good signings and bad with an emphasis on good signings.im not pro Moyes I'm just not against him either, neutral on him. Good for what he did but not a world beater by any means. Rodwell was sold for a large sum as was Rooney and both were given playing time by moyes, success stories for a cash strapped team. Yes and it will be the same with failed youngsters with Roberto, that's about the success rate anywhere that take their academy seriously. All in all my point is he's no different from Roberto in transfer dealings, so don't slate him there. Slate record attitude etc sure, but he knew a signing just like martinez, trying to make that point. Remember Rm had traore, Alcatraz, atsu, Kone so far as stinkers, he ain't infallible either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 That's my point though. You mention Senderos and Gardner, they were brought in as backup. Mainly because they cost nothing and would be on cheap wages. You can't put those signings against him.... We didn't have a pot to piss in. Heitinga was a big name and wasn't used enough IMO. He formed a decent partnership with Distin when jags got injured. Shame he was dropped again Senderos and Gardner were both on London club contracts in excess of 30k a week. A bit much for them IMO. The point is that do I think stones would have got a chance under moyes? No. A fair few no doubt think the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 Yes exactly just like Roberto. Good signings and bad with an emphasis on good signings.im not pro Moyes I'm just not against him either, neutral on him. Good for what he did but not a world beater by any means. Rodwell was sold for a large sum as was Rooney and both were given playing time by moyes, success stories for a cash strapped team. Yes and it will be the same with failed youngsters with Roberto, that's about the success rate anywhere that take their academy seriously. All in all my point is he's no different from Roberto in transfer dealings, so don't slate him there. Slate record attitude etc sure, but he knew a signing just like martinez, trying to make that point. Remember Rm had traore, Alcatraz, atsu, Kone so far as stinkers, he ain't infallible either. Rooney under Moyes??? I'm not being funny but he was far far too restricted with him and tried to be too clever for his own good. Subbing him all over the place, putting him on the left... Rooney was a physically ready footballer at 15/16, whereas most players only get to his physicality at around 21-22. Essentially this meant he could handle a full workload, it's a rarity, Lukaku, Norman whiteside, and a few others - they were ready just play them. Rooney fell out with Moyes, moyes did his head in. As for Rodwell - don't get me started on him. The lad was like a rolls Royce, fearless, composed, two great feet and Moyes ruined him IMO. Atsu was a loan, Alcaraz was a free on far less wages than heitinga, traore was a loan one goal in one game and got injured, kone was the right signing at the time. Look what he's done for Rom. I don't have an agenda, I have an opinion. Look back at my post about moyes and his pros and cons ffs. You must think I miss things when making an opinion. Moyes steadied the ship, balanced the books and stayed 4-5 years too long. London Blue 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 Was it Sheedy who slated Moyes for overlooking the academy? Moyes was a bully and had ruined Gosling and Rodwell's careers. Rodwell was class and should be playing every week at a better club than Sunderland, but injuries have wiped him out now so he's just a bit part player constantly out injured. As for playing Rooney, he was ready for the Prem at 15 Walter Smith wasn't allowed to play him as he had his gcses. Only player I can think moyes give a fair crack to is Anichebe and he's always injured. Thinking about it Vaughan is injured all the time as well. Moyes was brutal on the youngsters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/everton-manager-roberto-martinez-will-do-things-his-way-whether-its-popular-or-not-a6882561.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 Rooney under Moyes??? I'm not being funny but he was far far too restricted with him and tried to be too clever for his own good. Subbing him all over the place, putting him on the left... Rooney was a physically ready footballer at 15/16, whereas most players only get to his physicality at around 21-22. Essentially this meant he could handle a full workload, it's a rarity, Lukaku, Norman whiteside, and a few others - they were ready just play them. Rooney fell out with Moyes, moyes did his head in. As for Rodwell - don't get me started on him. The lad was like a rolls Royce, fearless, composed, two great feet and Moyes ruined him IMO. Atsu was a loan, Alcaraz was a free on far less wages than heitinga, traore was a loan one goal in one game and got injured, kone was the right signing at the time. Look what he's done for Rom. I don't have an agenda, I have an opinion. Look back at my post about moyes and his pros and cons ffs. You must think I miss things when making an opinion. Moyes steadied the ship, balanced the books and stayed 4-5 years too long. Moyes plays Rooney on the left and limits a youngsters playing time during his breakthrough season and gets slated for it Alex Ferguson plays Rooney on the left and limits a youngsters playing time during his breakthrough season and is hailed a tactical genius and the perfect manager to nurture young players Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 From this discussion alone, I can see the fundamental difference between Moyes and Martinez. David Moyes, by nature, plays it safe. He's very careful, some would say too restrictive, when it comes to young talent and prefers to stick with the tried and tested. If a young player makes a mistake, he takes them out and continues their "safe" apprenticeship with the U-21s or at a lower league team. His team setup is safe, too, with a focus on strong defence. Low risk means consistency and a mid-table finish over and over. Roberto Martinez, on the other hand, appears to be something of a risk-taker. He promised European football up front and has brought in a host of young players. He plays them and urges them to be themselves, even praising their occasional mistakes because they were bold and took a risk. Rather than drop young players, he gives them a chance to grow, even if it costs a few points and positions in the table. His team setup is more aggressive and, for the moment, we're paying the price for this with a leaky defence. In these early days (and it is still early days), this more risky approach leads to inconsistency - top five, then bottom half, then .... Do we, as a fan base, have the stomach to ride on a risky roller-coaster as momentum builds, or would we prefer to play it safe on the merry-go-round? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 Very well put. I do, I believe in striving and not being safe, but I also understand how football works and realise that there are lots of other things to consider. At the end of this season he either has to make substantial progress or it could be time to move on. I am going to vault myself and say that last week was a blip in a run that has turned a corner. We will win tomorrow and get back into winning ways against villa in the league. Deacs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 From this discussion alone, I can see the fundamental difference between Moyes and Martinez. David Moyes, by nature, plays it safe. He's very careful, some would say too restrictive, when it comes to young talent and prefers to stick with the tried and tested. If a young player makes a mistake, he takes them out and continues their "safe" apprenticeship with the U-21s or at a lower league team. His team setup is safe, too, with a focus on strong defence. Low risk means consistency and a mid-table finish over and over. Roberto Martinez, on the other hand, appears to be something of a risk-taker. He promised European football up front and has brought in a host of young players. He plays them and urges them to be themselves, even praising their occasional mistakes because they were bold and took a risk. Rather than drop young players, he gives them a chance to grow, even if it costs a few points and positions in the table. His team setup is more aggressive and, for the moment, we're paying the price for this with a leaky defence. In these early days (and it is still early days), this more risky approach leads to inconsistency - top five, then bottom half, then .... Do we, as a fan base, have the stomach to ride on a risky roller-coaster as momentum builds, or would we prefer to play it safe on the merry-go-round? yes but moyes never had the funds and ability to not play it safe thats the point myself and MC and others are trying to make. He had to get the highest place to insure the most TV revenue, and sell to buy, net 0 while maintaining the squad. RM regardless of position gets a huge kitty each window to spend, he doesn't have to produce results because the TV money is so large, 5th and 15th are still light years ahead of where the money used to be. Martinez if anything plays it safe as well, he plays the same lineup and favorites every week regardless of form (mirallas, robles, besic). they are a lot more alike than different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted February 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 From this discussion alone, I can see the fundamental difference between Moyes and Martinez. David Moyes, by nature, plays it safe. He's very careful, some would say too restrictive, when it comes to young talent and prefers to stick with the tried and tested. If a young player makes a mistake, he takes them out and continues their "safe" apprenticeship with the U-21s or at a lower league team. His team setup is safe, too, with a focus on strong defence. Low risk means consistency and a mid-table finish over and over. Roberto Martinez, on the other hand, appears to be something of a risk-taker. He promised European football up front and has brought in a host of young players. He plays them and urges them to be themselves, even praising their occasional mistakes because they were bold and took a risk. Rather than drop young players, he gives them a chance to grow, even if it costs a few points and positions in the table. His team setup is more aggressive and, for the moment, we're paying the price for this with a leaky defence. In these early days (and it is still early days), this more risky approach leads to inconsistency - top five, then bottom half, then .... Do we, as a fan base, have the stomach to ride on a risky roller-coaster as momentum builds, or would we prefer to play it safe on the merry-go-round? That's some biased shite if I've ever seen it.... Consistent mid table finishes? If you call 4th, 5th & 6th place mid table I'd agree with you. Unfortunately you're talking shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 yes but moyes never had the funds and ability to not play it safe thats the point myself and MC and others are trying to make. He had to get the highest place to insure the most TV revenue, and sell to buy, net 0 while maintaining the squad. RM regardless of position gets a huge kitty each window to spend, he doesn't have to produce results because the TV money is so large, 5th and 15th are still light years ahead of where the money used to be. Martinez if anything plays it safe as well, he plays the same lineup and favorites every week regardless of form (mirallas, robles, besic). they are a lot more alike than different. What's changed? TV money! And that's the same for other teams. Relatively, we're no different than before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 That's some biased shite if I've ever seen it.... Consistent mid table finishes? If you call 4th, 5th & 6th place mid table I'd agree with you. Unfortunately you're talking shit. I heard that response in stereo... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted February 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 I heard that response in stereo... You're only on the forum because of Martinez anyway. Of course you're going to put propaganda out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 What's changed? TV money! And that's the same for other teams. Relatively, we're no different than before. Of cause it's different now, we can blow most European teams out of the water financially but the biggest difference is that we no longer have to sell our best players That means we can build a team around them rather than see them flourish at one of the Sky teams markjazzbassist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted February 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 Of cause it's different now, we can blow most European teams out of the water financially but the biggest difference is that we no longer have to sell our best players That means we can build a team around them rather than see them flourish at one of the Sky teams Nailed. markjazzbassist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 http://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2016/02/19/david-ginola-makes-his-feelings-known-about-evertons-season/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 You're only on the forum because of Martinez anyway. Of course you're going to put propaganda out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 Of cause it's different now, we can blow most European teams out of the water financially but the biggest difference is that we no longer have to sell our best players That means we can build a team around them rather than see them flourish at one of the Sky teams With respect, you're missing my point. If we're now able to build a team, then so are all other teams in the league. What matters, as far as progress and league position matters, is how we fare relative to other teams, not in absolute terms. In that light, we're no better off than before. MikeO, Kant and Chach 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 With respect, you're missing my point. If we're now able to build a team, then so are all other teams in the league. What matters, as far as progress and league position matters, is how we fare relative to other teams, not in absolute terms. In that light, we're no better off than before. Nailed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 With respect, you're missing my point. If we're now able to build a team, then so are all other teams in the league. What matters, as far as progress and league position matters, is how we fare relative to other teams, not in absolute terms. In that light, we're no better off than before. Sorry but I think it's you that is missing the point. We have always had to sell our best players and so it's harder to develop as a team. We no longer have to do that which makes it easier for Roberto to assemble his side. If other premier league teams can also do that it just makes it more of an even playing field therefore we are in a better position than ever before to challenge the top teams Also the TV money makes the premier league an even more attractive proposition for foreign players. If Everton and Ajax were in for the same player we could blow them out of the water in both the fee we could play the players club and the personal terms we could offer the player Another example would be our pursuit of Yarmalenko , ultimately it may end in failure but without all this TV money we wouldn't even be in for him So the difference is not only do we not have to sell our best player every season we can now go out and buy players that previously would have been beyond our reach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 Sorry but I think it's you that is missing the point. We have always had to sell our best players and so it's harder to develop as a team. We no longer have to do that which makes it easier for Roberto to assemble his side. If other premier league teams can also do that it just makes it more of an even playing field therefore we are in a better position than ever before to challenge the top teams Also the TV money makes the premier league an even more attractive proposition for foreign players. If Everton and Ajax were in for the same player we could blow them out of the water in both the fee we could play the players club and the personal terms we could offer the player Another example would be our pursuit of Yarmalenko , ultimately it may end in failure but without all this TV money we wouldn't even be in for him So the difference is not only do we not have to sell our best player every season we can now go out and buy players that previously would have been beyond our reach So let's say the government decides to halve the income tax rate. You can now afford to buy a car instead of having to take a bus or train everywhere. Does that make you suddenly more mobile than everyone else in your town? No - because they too enjoy the tax break and can afford to buy a car. Compared to citizens of Spain, you're in a better position. Relative to others in your league, however, you're in the same position you always were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted February 21, 2016 Report Share Posted February 21, 2016 So let's say the government decides to halve the income tax rate. You can now afford to buy a car instead of having to take a bus or train everywhere. Does that make you suddenly more mobile than everyone else in your town? No - because they too enjoy the tax break and can afford to buy a car. Compared to citizens of Spain, you're in a better position. Relative to others in your league, however, you're in the same position you always were. Let's say you are a builder trying to build a house but somebody keeps stealing your cement. Then the council pays for security guards so nobody can interfere anymore and so you finally get to build the house Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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