Martinez - Direction?

[Cornish Steve]

Let's say you are a builder trying to build a house but somebody keeps stealing your cement. Then the council pays for security guards so nobody can interfere anymore and so you finally get to build the house

 

And everyone else gets to build their house, too.

 

Frankly, I think we're both right. With TV money, we're living in a different world. Nonetheless, everyone is living in that different world. It's like adding 20K to everyone's salary: We're all richer, but we remain in the same financial pecking order.

[Hafnia]

Let's say you are a builder trying to build a house but somebody keeps stealing your cement. Then the council pays for security guards so nobody can interfere anymore and so you finally get to build the house

Thing is everyone else was getting their cement stolen too. Only the top 5 richest weren't. Now it's more competitive.

 

Who would have thought stoke and West ham could attract players ahead of us because of ££££

Edited February 21, 2016 by Hafnia

[Newty82]

I'm fully with Steve on this. I've been saying forever that the extra TV money makes no difference as everything stays relative.

 

Transfer fee's go up (someone who cost £5m 10 years ago now costs £10m), Salaries increase (£20k per week now turns into £30k per week).

 

The income column on the balance sheet may look great (the exact spin given by our club last year!) but that's exactly the same for every club.

 

For example, without TV money would Bournemouth, with their 12000 capacity stadium, really afford to pay £13m for Afobe? Or would Afobe really have cost £13m 5-10 years ago?

 

We may not have to sell our best players anymore, but neither do a fair few other clubs.

 

I do agree though that it might lead to more choice of foreign players choosing a PL team over a team in another league...but then the selling club know there is more money available so the fee, wages, agent fees all increase anyway?! So your back to square one. Especially if ine many clubs with the same or more income than us goes for the same player. And let's be honest, if the aim is top 4, there will be a few teams after the players that can get you there.

 

It's a good old debate though!

[Romey 1878]

Bournemouth probably isn't the best example, Newts, because they have a rich owner who is willing to bankroll them. Other than that, I'm in full agreement with you.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Romey 1878

[Newty82]

Bournemouth probably isn't the best example, Newts, because they have a rich owner who is willing to bankroll them. Other than that, I'm in full agreement with you.

But the rich owner isn't allowed to do that now? Or is he?!!

 

I've just looked...I didn't realise they'd signed several other players for around £10m....although looking at their names, the example kind of still stands, as would they really have cost that much without the extra money?

 

Basically, whereas we once paid a few million for an Arteta, that same 'unknown' player now costs at least £10m.

 

Anyway, I'm waffling on now!!!

[Romey 1878]

But the rich owner isn't allowed to do that now? Or is he?!!

 

I've just looked...I didn't realise they'd signed several other players for around £10m....although looking at their names, the example kind of still stands, as would they really have cost that much without the extra money?

 

Basically, whereas we once paid a few million for an Arteta, that same 'unknown' player now costs at least £10m.

 

Anyway, I'm waffling on now!!!

 

He can, it only really becomes a problem if they get into European competition or go back down to The Championship where the rules about the money spent apply. As far as my memory stretches the PL doesn't apply FFP do they?

 

No the players wouldn't have cost as much without the extra TV money but that wasn't the point of yours I was highlighting really. I was focusing on your point of them being able to afford those fees without the TV money - they could because of their owner.

[Hafnia]

To cut a long story short Martinez has been similarly restricted in the way moyes was.

 

Here's the similarities....

 

Moyes had rooney as his prize asset and rebuilt the squad off his sale and some otgets. Martinez had fellaini and built the squad off him and a few others.

 

Relatively speaking they have had very similar restrictions. Both bought wisely and that makes the difference.

 

Martinez has not been given a vastly different amount to spend in comparison to teams of a supposed lesser standing. The same applied to moyes.

[MC11]

But the rich owner isn't allowed to do that now? Or is he?!!

 

I've just looked...I didn't realise they'd signed several other players for around £10m....although looking at their names, the example kind of still stands, as would they really have cost that much without the extra money?

 

Basically, whereas we once paid a few million for an Arteta, that same 'unknown' player now costs at least £10m.

 

Anyway, I'm waffling on now!!!

That's called inflation, which would happen whether there was TV money or not. I disagree with what you're saying too. PL players will naturally become more expensive. However, foreign leagues will need to keep their prices competitive as they don't have the financial power to compete with the PL. Unless of course they no longer trade with anyone but PL teams.

[Hafnia]

There is one big observation here... people who aren't in favour of Martinez focus on his bullshit and baffling decisions/tactics.

 

Those in favour of him will look at his first season and expansive football and signings.

 

Overall it's a frustrating scenario. We should be doing better no doubt about it.

[MC11]

There is one big observation here... people who aren't in favour of Martinez focus on his bullshit and baffling decisions/tactics.

Those in favour of him will look at his first season and expansive football and signings.

Overall it's a frustrating scenario. We should be doing better no doubt about it.

Still convinced the first season was because of the solid/drilled back four and Martinez attacking influence. It was a good blend. However Martinez just hasn't the ability to drill the back four like Moyes.

[Kant]

That's called inflation, which would happen whether there was TV money or not. I disagree with what you're saying too. PL players will naturally become more expensive. However, foreign leagues will need to keep their prices competitive as they don't have the financial power to compete with the PL. Unless of course they no longer trade with anyone but PL teams.

 

Not really, for example: for Spanish teams not Real Madrid or Barcelona, if any PL team comes knocking the price for them is £10m. For any other Spanish team the price would be €3m (as no one else can afford £10m).

 

The PL teams, the top teams in Europe and the Chinese league are very wealthy compared to the rest of clubs, and the markets adjust to that.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

I can't believe that people can't see the difference it makes when the club can afford to not have to repeatedly sell its best players

 

In the past only a select few teams could shop at Harrods while the rest of us had to get our players from Aldi

Now we can all afford to go to Harrods. That is a massive difference

 

Martinez can go out and buy the kind of players he wants and keep hold of them

Moyes had a wish list in case we ever came in to money but we never did so he had to look into the lower leagues or find players like Arteta and Piennar that had lost their way

Then once those players developed he had to sell them

 

How is that not different??

[Hafnia]

I can't believe that people can't see the difference it makes when the club can afford to not have to repeatedly sell its best players

 

In the past only a select few teams could shop at Harrods while the rest of us had to get our players from Aldi

Now we can all afford to go to Harrods. That is a massive difference

 

Martinez can go out and buy the kind of players he wants and keep hold of them

Moyes had a wish list in case we ever came in to money but we never did so he had to look into the lower leagues or find players like Arteta and Piennar that had lost their way

Then once those players developed he had to sell them

 

How is that not different??

More foreign players are obtainable to more premier league clubs because the prem clubs can meet the prices versus other countries leagues. This means that there is more competition for the best players, so yes when we are successful it costs more than usual £13m for niasse prime example.

 

Have a look at Newcastle, Stoke, Swansea, West Ham, Norwich look at players they have signed, look at Leicester and the wages they can spend to retain players.

 

Simply put there is a reason that the league is at its most competitive - more money, there are more pigs noses in the trough look at wijnaldum, payet, shaquiri, off to clubs for mega money and wages that we showed an interest in and lost.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Hafnia

[London Blue]

I can't believe that people can't see the difference it makes when the club can afford to not have to repeatedly sell its best players

 

In the past only a select few teams could shop at Harrods while the rest of us had to get our players from Aldi

Now we can all afford to go to Harrods. That is a massive difference

 

Martinez can go out and buy the kind of players he wants and keep hold of them

Moyes had a wish list in case we ever came in to money but we never did so he had to look into the lower leagues or find players like Arteta and Piennar that had lost their way

Then once those players developed he had to sell them

 

How is that not different??

Who has Martinez bought?

 

Lukaku, only got him as he went out and got him on loan for a season, built up a relationship with him and he was surplus to requirements at Chelsea.

Barry, again on loan for a season then got on a free / minimal fee.

McCarthy, Wigan player who he worked with.

Besic, punt on Bosnian player he saw at World Cup.

Mori, player spotted by scouts in Argentinian league.

 

There were no bidding wars for these players.

Yes more money was spent, but he used the funds from Fellani and Anachebe, and the increased TV money, and look at the money other clubs around us were spending.

[Newty82]

That's called inflation, which would happen whether there was TV money or not. I disagree with what you're saying too. PL players will naturally become more expensive. However, foreign leagues will need to keep their prices competitive as they don't have the financial power to compete with the PL. Unless of course they no longer trade with anyone but PL teams.

Wish my wages went up at that rate of inflation!!!

 

Shock horror....you disagree with me!!!!

[Newty82]

I can't believe that people can't see the difference it makes when the club can afford to not have to repeatedly sell its best players

 

In the past only a select few teams could shop at Harrods while the rest of us had to get our players from Aldi

Now we can all afford to go to Harrods. That is a massive difference

 

Martinez can go out and buy the kind of players he wants and keep hold of them

Moyes had a wish list in case we ever came in to money but we never did so he had to look into the lower leagues or find players like Arteta and Piennar that had lost their way

Then once those players developed he had to sell them

 

How is that not different??

It's one of them that goes round and round isn't it?

 

In the past most teams had to sell their best players. Other than the usual suspects at the top of the table. What Moyes had to do was no different to what a good chunk of other clubs had to do.

 

Now we as a club don't have to do it...neither do a fair chunk of other clubs. So no advantage is gained?

 

So, yes, it is different. But it's different not only for us but also for a good amount of other teams.

 

Results in the Premiership show it has made it a much tighter more competitive league I suppose. Which is good for the purist football fan.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

More foreign players are obtainable to more premier league clubs because the prem clubs can meet the prices versus other countries leagues. This means that there is more competition for the best players, so yes when we are successful it costs more than usual £13m for niasse prime example.

 

Have a look at Newcastle, Stoke, Swansea, West Ham, Norwich look at players they have signed, look at Leicester and the wages they can spend to retain players.

 

Simply put there is a reason that the league is at its most competitive - more money, there are more pigs noses in the trough look at wijnaldum, payet, shaquiri, off to clubs for mega money and wages that we showed an interest in and lost.

 

 

Which backs up my point that we can all now shop at Harrods and so its easier than ever for a manager to build a side that can compete

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Who has Martinez bought?

 

Lukaku, only got him as he went out and got him on loan for a season, built up a relationship with him and he was surplus to requirements at Chelsea.

Barry, again on loan for a season then got on a free / minimal fee.

McCarthy, Wigan player who he worked with.

Besic, punt on Bosnian player he saw at World Cup.

Mori, player spotted by scouts in Argentinian league.

 

There were no bidding wars for these players.

Yes more money was spent, but he used the funds from Fellani and Anachebe, and the increased TV money, and look at the money other clubs around us were spending.

 

 

We only got him because the TV money allowed us to write Chelsea a cheque for £28M

 

Again you are backing up my point that its easier for a manager to build a team now than it was for Moyes.

 

Lukaku is a perfect example, he is the focal point for all of our attacks without him we are toothless. He is integral to how we play. and befeore the TV money we simply would never have been able to get a player of his quality

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

It's one of them that goes round and round isn't it?

 

In the past most teams had to sell their best players. Other than the usual suspects at the top of the table. What Moyes had to do was no different to what a good chunk of other clubs had to do.

 

Now we as a club don't have to do it...neither do a fair chunk of other clubs. So no advantage is gained?

 

So, yes, it is different. But it's different not only for us but also for a good amount of other teams.

 

Results in the Premiership show it has made it a much tighter more competitive league I suppose. Which is good for the purist football fan.

 

That is my point

 

Advantage is a good word to use , Im not saying we have an advantage over any other Premiership team because of the TV money., we dont, however we do have an advantage over non Premiership teams in that respect

 

People are saying the money hasnt made a difference, quite clearly it has made a massive difference. Not only do we not have to sell our best players we can now buy better quality players ,this has enabled Martinez to build a team around the likes of Ross Barkley and John Stones rather than watch them go to the highest bidder

 

If the manager does not have to lose his most important player at the end of every season that to me is a significant difference

 

People have mentioned Fellaini, but he wasnt even in Martinez plans so its a different scenario altogether and he was also the last high profile departure and that was almost 3 years ago

[Newty82]

 

That is my point

 

Advantage is a good word to use , Im not saying we have an advantage over any other Premiership team because of the TV money., we dont, however we do have an advantage over non Premiership teams in that respect

 

People are saying the money hasnt made a difference, quite clearly it has made a massive difference. Not only do we not have to sell our best players we can now buy better quality players ,this has enabled Martinez to build a team around the likes of Ross Barkley and John Stones rather than watch them go to the highest bidder

 

If the manager does not have to lose his most important player at the end of every season that to me is a significant difference

 

People have mentioned Fellaini, but he wasnt even in Martinez plans so its a different scenario altogether and he was also the last high profile departure and that was almost 3 years ago

Yeah. I think it's one of those open debates were people are coming at different angles, no one I'd 'dead wrong' really.

 

I mean, to be fair, we see ourselves as previously having to sell our best players. You look through the Moyes era (or even just Everton in the last 10 or 12 years), he didn't have to sell that many high profile players. Apart from Rooney in the very early years, the only 2 biggies are Lescott for £24m and Arteta for £10m. If you want to be picky, you could say Rodwell for £12m...but I think we were laughing at that one. Other players we sold we generally sold for less than we bought them!

[London Blue]

 

 

We only got him because the TV money allowed us to write Chelsea a cheque for £28M

 

Again you are backing up my point that its easier for a manager to build a team now than it was for Moyes.

 

Lukaku is a perfect example, he is the focal point for all of our attacks without him we are toothless. He is integral to how we play. and befeore the TV money we simply would never have been able to get a player of his quality

My point is that the players Martinez bought were not superstars, there was no bidding war they were players he had identified and purchased.

 

Yes there is more money around mow, but that's relative because there is more money for all clubs in our division. Stoke have spent how much 30 million on players?

 

Both Moyes and Martinez have bought really good players for us.

[Hafnia]

Moyes sold 28m player and rebuilt, Martinez sold 28m player and rebuilt.

 

28m 10 years ago was a lot more than it is now.

 

Bottom half clubs all shop at Harrods now, The premier league is like Monaco, you can be a multi millionaire and be made to look cheap.

 

Years ago the relaxation threatened clubs bought less paid players in case they got relegated, now they can buy expensive foreign players because of the value of parachute payments covers contracts.

[markjazzbassist]

Gotta give credit where it's due he changed formation. I've been bitching all season about the same formation and the 343 was a beauty. Had mirallas stayed on I think it would have held well.

 

Subs were garbage, niasse not looking like much so far but jury's still out. Why take off Lennon? He was a beast. Should have taken off McCarthy but RM favorite will never be subbed.

 

1 step forward 1 step backward.

[Matt]

Gotta give credit where it's due he changed formation. I've been bitching all season about the same formation and the 343 was a beauty. Had mirallas stayed on I think it would have held well.

 

Subs were garbage, niasse not looking like much so far but jury's still out. Why take off Lennon? He was a beast. Should have taken off McCarthy but RM favorite will never be subbed.

 

1 step forward 1 step backward.

thought bringin Besic on for Stones was a brave move, but beyond that....

[Romey 1878]

The 343 was a beauty?! Stones was completely and utterly lost out there and should never have started. I was happy as fuck to see him go off.

[nogs]

Just look at the table. Look at our home form. Tells you everything you need to know about the direction we're heading.

[Matt]

The 343 was a beauty?! Stones was completely and utterly lost out there and should never have started. I was happy as fuck to see him go off.

The only good decision Martinez made was taking him off

[evilweevil666]

Agree with what's been said. I thought tactics were pretty spot on through ~45 minutes, but later game subs have and continue to be a massive weakness for Roberto. Did us no favors seeing that game out, although I think he deserves some credit for having us cruising in the first place.

[MC11]

Still can't defend crosses

[Romey 1878]

The only good decision Martinez made was taking him off

I knew it was going to happen but I'm still in disbelief that he started him.

 

I'm even more miffed at him bringing Niasse on for Lennon. At that time we should've brought Barry on to shut the game down. Down to ten men and cruising and he brings someone on who played higher up the pitch than Rom?! Kamikaze shite from the witless wonder.