Martinez - Direction?

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Ffs this moyes bullshit again...

 

Howard, Baines, Jagielka Distin Coleman Gibson Osman (Hibbert - 89' ) Pienaar Fellaini Mirallas (Oviedo - 90' )28 Anichebe (Jelavic - 73' )

 

 

That was moyes last everton game. 4 first choice players in their last contracts before inevitable retirement. 3 players not good enough.

 

Basically he left us in a similar shape as Dalglish left liverpool when he did a runner first time round.

 

Martinez had to sell fellaini to work in the transfer market and look at what we have now. We were in serious trouble in terms of players ages and lack of funds.

 

I'm far from happy with his tactics and subs but seriously please stop talking about moyes like he's bill shankley.

Which bit is bullshit?

 

Were we not constantly fighting relegation?

Did he not turn us into regular top 7 side?

Did he not do it on a shoestring budget?

 

You have picked his starting XI from one fixture but I notice you failed to mention Stones, you failed to mention the fantastic youth setup he left

 

Whether you like it or not Haf, Moyes did a good job

 

I would totally agree that we were never going to go any further with him in charge but you can't deny he did a good job

 

Yes it was an ageing squad that needed a major overhaul but the foundations were already built . Martinez also inherited one of the best defences in the Premiership and he had considerably more money at his disposal to rebuild than any other manager in Evertons history

 

And fuck only knows where the Bill Shankly shout came from!

[Hafnia]

Well according to the Moyes trend, stones like dier, mustafi and Duffy would have no doubt stayed in the reserves. As for Barkley well let's just say he would probably be on his 6th loan club.

 

So, that leaves players moyes left behind behind... ageing, lacking in quality. 7 of the 13 mentioned not good enough or needing imminent replacement. That's £70m worth of a talent gap.

 

Mccarthy, Barry, Besic, Cleverley, galloway, deulofeu, mori bought in for £30m. 7 players probably worth £80m plus now.

[London Blue]

The defense we have now is based on the defense we had under Moyes.

 

Coleman, Jags, Distin, Baines

 

to

 

Coleman, Jags, Stones / Mori, Baines / Oviedo

 

The only player that Martinez has bought is Mori, all the rest were bought and trained by Moyes. They did not forget how to defend, nor has Martinez trained it out of them. I think there are many reasons why we are defending poorly:

 

1) Howard's skill has diminished badly over the last 2 or so years which has unsettled the rest of the defense.

 

2) We as a team don't have the same emphasis on defense first that we had under Moyes, and we have a changed from hoofing it clear to passing it out of defense, and the transition has been uneven, and exasperated by reason 1.

 

3) While the defense has mostly remained the same, the midfield has changed making it a different team dynamic.

 

4) Individual mistakes by players have been more frequent.

 

The defense will come good, once we get a quality keeper who commands the area, and Martinez has slightly more defensively minded defense.

[MC11]

Well according to the Moyes trend, stones like dier, mustafi and Duffy would have no doubt stayed in the reserves. As for Barkley well let's just say he would probably be on his 6th loan club.

So, that leaves players moyes left behind behind... ageing, lacking in quality. 7 of the 13 mentioned not good enough or needing imminent replacement. That's £70m worth of a talent gap.

Mccarthy, Barry, Besic, Cleverley, galloway, deulofeu, mori bought in for £30m. 7 players probably worth £80m plus now.

Pretty sure Moyes would have taken Barry once he was made available (typical Moyes player). Moyes was always linked with McCarthy so that could have happened too. Especially with Wigan going down. Cleverley again a typical Moyes purchase, that could have happened IMO.

 

Deulofeu, Besic & Mori almost certainly not. Galloway maybe. Who's to say Moyes didn't leave his notorious scouting list at finch farm unwiped?

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Well according to the Moyes trend, stones like dier, mustafi and Duffy would have no doubt stayed in the reserves. As for Barkley well let's just say he would probably be on his 6th loan club.

 

So, that leaves players moyes left behind behind... ageing, lacking in quality. 7 of the 13 mentioned not good enough or needing imminent replacement. That's £70m worth of a talent gap.

 

Mccarthy, Barry, Besic, Cleverley, galloway, deulofeu, mori bought in for £30m. 7 players probably worth £80m plus now.

Sorry but you are talking shite

Dier was never our player, There is no telling whether or not Mustafi would have been able to handle the Premiership and are you really comparing Stones to Duffy???

 

 

Have you ever heard Barkley speak about Moyes? He has never had a bad word to say about him

 

Yes Martinez has made some cracking signings, I've never said otherwise but how does that detract in any way from the job Moyes did ?

 

I could rattle off a load of signings that Moyes made that are equally if not more impressive but I'm not trying to compare the managers , im merely stating the fact that Moyes did a good job here

[MC11]

The defense we have now is based on the defense we had under Moyes.

 

Coleman, Jags, Distin, Baines

 

to

 

Coleman, Jags, Stones / Mori, Baines / Oviedo

 

The only player that Martinez has bought is Mori, all the rest were bought and trained by Moyes. They did not forget how to defend, nor has Martinez trained it out of them. I think there are many reasons why we are defending poorly:

 

1) Howard's skill has diminished badly over the last 2 or so years which has unsettled the rest of the defense.

 

2) We as a team don't have the same emphasis on defense first that we had under Moyes, and we have a changed from hoofing it clear to passing it out of defense, and the transition has been uneven, and exasperated by reason 1.

 

3) While the defense has mostly remained the same, the midfield has changed making it a different team dynamic.

 

4) Individual mistakes by players have been more frequent.

 

The defense will come good, once we get a quality keeper who commands the area, and Martinez has slightly more defensively minded defense.

 

In simple terms..... Martinez is asking defenders who were drilled not to take risks to start taking risks, which then leads to individual mistakes. All falls on manager for me.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

The defense we have now is based on the defense we had under Moyes.

 

Coleman, Jags, Distin, Baines

 

to

 

Coleman, Jags, Stones / Mori, Baines / Oviedo

 

The only player that Martinez has bought is Mori, all the rest were bought and trained by Moyes. They did not forget how to defend, nor has Martinez trained it out of them. I think there are many reasons why we are defending poorly:

 

1) Howard's skill has diminished badly over the last 2 or so years which has unsettled the rest of the defense.

 

2) We as a team don't have the same emphasis on defense first that we had under Moyes, and we have a changed from hoofing it clear to passing it out of defense, and the transition has been uneven, and exasperated by reason 1.

 

3) While the defense has mostly remained the same, the midfield has changed making it a different team dynamic.

 

4) Individual mistakes by players have been more frequent.

 

The defense will come good, once we get a quality keeper who commands the area, and Martinez has slightly more defensively minded defense.

You say that they don't forget how to defend, and I would agree with that, but they also don't all become bad defenders overnight

 

I agree having a dodgy keeper behind them must give them the jitters, but whose fault is that?

 

You say Martinez has not trained it out of them, I'm not so sure

 

To be a solid back four you need to be well drilled and well organised. Each player needs to know what his team mate is going to do

 

Our back four look anything but organised. They need to learn when it's OK to play it out from the back and when they need to just defend

 

We have alway had the full backs bomb on and we never used to have the extra cover of the 2 holding midfielders. All our problems come from mistakes because we take too many risks

Edited February 15, 2016 by duncanmckenzieismagic

[MC11]

You say that they don't forget how to defend, and I would agree with that, but they also don't all become bad defenders overnight

 

I agree having a dodgy keeper behind them must give them the jitters, but whose fault is that?

 

You say Martinez has not trained it out of them, I'm not so sure

 

To be a solid back four you need to be well drilled and well organised. Each player needs to know what his team mate is going to do

 

Our back four look anything but organised. They need to learn when it's OK to play it out from the back and when they need to just defend

 

We have alway had the full backs bomb on and we never used to have the extra cover of the 2 holding midfielders. All our problems come from mistakes because we take too many risks

I hate this myth. I can certainly remember (more so in Moyes final season) Coleman and Baines just bombing forward. When we had Hibbert and Neville they were limited so obviously didn't go the extra 20 yards. Again absolutely spot on we didn't rely heavily on these two sitting midfielders. Which I've always maintained affect our ability going forward especially against sides who park the bus. The majority of our goals are created from wide positions. There's certainly not enough creativity coming from the middle of the park.

[Chach]

 

dude you must not be on here much we have a whole thread devoted to that very subject. it's in the same forum too, just down a few subjects.

 

http://www.toffeetalk.com/index.php?/topic/27682-if-martinez-goes-who-should-get-the-nod/

 

That the was the specific thread I was referring to, Eddie Howe and Andre Villa Boas? I'm not convinced.

 

PS I have posted in that thread and you have only really suggested Haf, who doesn't have any premier league and isn't going to get on with Lukaku.

[chicagoblue]

In simple terms..... Martinez is asking defenders who were drilled not to take risks to start taking risks, which then leads to individual mistakes. All falls on manager for me.

Can't recall the last time I agreed with MC, buy he's taking sense in this post.

[Romey 1878]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/35584080

[Hafnia]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/35584080

 

Finger on the pulse there Joey lad - elsewhere in cyberspace Evertonians are unanimous in their opinions on Martinez....

 

He is probably the most divisive manager in the game at the moment.

[christiffa25]

 

Exactly. Some fans act like Martinez is doing nothing right at all. He has changed an aging squad, brought in some great young talent and is changing the way we play Football. It was never going to be seemless.

Therefore i don't think its as clear cut as saying its time to go, there is a bigger picture to look at.

 

People stuck by Moyes for 10 years and we basically stood still with a few highlights. At least with Martinez you can see what he is trying to build and create.

 

I hate seeing Managers sacked after a short time. You cant judge a manager after 2 years when so much needed changing at the club. He frustrates the life out of me at times but iv never seen us play so much great football either. Just my opinion.

For starters Moyes took us from being relegation fighters year after year to a top 6 side with a crap squad and no money! Of course people stuck by him! Even at the end Moyes was trying and getting close to cracking the top 4 with NO money. He had to beg and borrow!

 

This building a young team with a new style is a cop out imo. He has seasoned pro's in that mix too. There's no improvement, we're getting worse! And a quick look at other teams (Spurs) introducing younger players and a way of playing does NOT mean you drop to a mid table team.

 

Whoopy dooo.....we can play some exciting attacking football at time? So we bloody should with the talent in this squad!!

 

The only tick I'll give Martinez is, he's brought in some good, actually very good players. But again, when your a big club like Everton, so you should be able to. There's also been several duds!

[dlblue]

Pretty sure Moyes would have taken Barry once he was made available (typical Moyes player). Moyes was always linked with McCarthy so that could have happened too. Especially with Wigan going down. Cleverley again a typical Moyes purchase, that could have happened IMO.

 

Deulofeu, Besic & Mori almost certainly not. Galloway maybe. Who's to say Moyes didn't leave his notorious scouting list at finch farm unwiped?

 

Lukaku certainly wouldn't have happened under Moyes and if it would. Stones would have been sold and Barkley too imo.

[dlblue]

For starters Moyes took us from being relegation fighters year after year to a top 6 side with a crap squad and no money! Of course people stuck by him! Even at the end Moyes was trying and getting close to cracking the top 4 with NO money. He had to beg and borrow!

 

This building a young team with a new style is a cop out imo. He has seasoned pro's in that mix too. There's no improvement, we're getting worse! And a quick look at other teams (Spurs) introducing younger players and a way of playing does NOT mean you drop to a mid table team.

 

Whoopy dooo.....we can play some exciting attacking football at time? So we bloody should with the talent in this squad!!

 

The only tick I'll give Martinez is, he's brought in some good, actually very good players. But again, when your a big club like Everton, so you should be able to. There's also been several duds!

 

I'm not knocking what Moyes did for us, he stopped us from being relegated and made us into a decent team. Agreed Spurs have been great this season but its taken them years to get to this point!

Several Duds is a bit much? Kone is the only one for me as he's the one we actually paid money for. Alcaraz was shocking but he was free cover so i see the reasons for him? granted he was terrible though.

 

"Whoopy dooo.....we can play some exciting attacking football at time? So we bloody should with the talent in this squad!!" - Talent brought in by Martinez!

 

Big club like Everton? Great History yes but we aren't a Big Club anymore, Those days are gone and people need to face up to this. London clubs will always have the advantage and now even teams like Stoke can compete for signings. We cant compete with most clubs on that front anymore. Until we have a new board in place that wants to move the club forward this is a reality we need to face up to.

[Hafnia]

Ok, Moyes like Joe Royle took over from possibly one of the 2 worst managers in Everton history.

 

How difficult would it have been to improve on either of those 2? Not very, but none the less both squads were completely in need of a new manager who they respected. You had suntan Walker who basically picked up a wage and didn't care about the club - should have been taken to task for abandoning duties according to some ex players.

 

Walter Smith and his side kick Archie baseball-bat Knox..... well lets just say I would pay good money to see that bullying vile double act have a baseball bat taken to them.

 

None the less - both managers injected passion into the team and established a fundamental mindset of playing for the shirt.

 

I recall being at Moyes first game and being nearly in tears at the prospect of losing that game - watching him get to grips with Jesper Blomqvist after his display of dissent was brilliant, exactly what we needed and we survived the trap door with some ease in the end.

 

Moyes had money and in fairness on the whole he was very very good with it. He also got to spend alot of what he gained in sales - he also had a very flexible salary budget which allowed him to retain top talent (arteta £70k a week a good while ago)

 

His best squad peaked in the FA Cup final year and after that never really reached the same heights. The squad he left behind was aged and needed regenerating. He did a decent job for us without ever being anything more than a good book balancer and a solid team organiser.

 

Ironically he would work well as a number 2 to Martinez... I am being serious there, but that would never happen.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

 

Lukaku certainly wouldn't have happened under Moyes and if it would. Stones would have been sold and Barkley too imo.

Why?

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Ok, Moyes like Joe Royle took over from possibly one of the 2 worst managers in Everton history.

 

How difficult would it have been to improve on either of those 2? Not very, but none the less both squads were completely in need of a new manager who they respected. You had suntan Walker who basically picked up a wage and didn't care about the club - should have been taken to task for abandoning duties according to some ex players.

 

Walter Smith and his side kick Archie baseball-bat Knox..... well lets just say I would pay good money to see that bullying vile double act have a baseball bat taken to them.

 

None the less - both managers injected passion into the team and established a fundamental mindset of playing for the shirt.

 

I recall being at Moyes first game and being nearly in tears at the prospect of losing that game - watching him get to grips with Jesper Blomqvist after his display of dissent was brilliant, exactly what we needed and we survived the trap door with some ease in the end.

 

Moyes had money and in fairness on the whole he was very very good with it. He also got to spend alot of what he gained in sales - he also had a very flexible salary budget which allowed him to retain top talent (arteta £70k a week a good while ago)

 

His best squad peaked in the FA Cup final year and after that never really reached the same heights. The squad he left behind was aged and needed regenerating. He did a decent job for us without ever being anything more than a good book balancer and a solid team organiser.

 

Ironically he would work well as a number 2 to Martinez... I am being serious there, but that would never happen.

He only had a mid table budget but what he did well was bring in players who were very versatile and could play in several positions, therefore we didn't need too many numbers in the squad, that is how he was able to offer big wages to a few individuals

 

I don't think it's fair to say he had money, he always had to sell before he could buy

 

Agree with the rest though

[christiffa25]

I think lukaku would certainly have happened under Moyes tbh.

 

As for money he certainly didn't have money. Ok every now and again he splashed when he sold but that was all. He had nothing like what Martinez has been afforded.

 

It makes me sad when Moyes gets bashed, or put down on. And I think for whatever reason some people change history when talking about what he did here which is a shame.

 

He had his faults, which imo were brought on by circumstance rather than choice. But all in all he did a brilliant job here and I would have loved to have seen what he could have done with the extra cash and resources Martinez has had. We'd certainly be fighting for top 4 currently rather than heading for another mid table finish.

 

Anyway, the fool went and took the most poisened job in football, got shafted, and I bet regrets that decision more and more everyday! But still, he's a better manager than our current one imo, fa cup winner or not.

[Cornish Steve]

I think lukaku would certainly have happened under Moyes tbh.

 

As for money he certainly didn't have money. Ok every now and again he splashed when he sold but that was all. He had nothing like what Martinez has been afforded.

 

It makes me sad when Moyes gets bashed, or put down on. And I think for whatever reason some people change history when talking about what he did here which is a shame.

 

He had his faults, which imo were brought on by circumstance rather than choice. But all in all he did a brilliant job here and I would have loved to have seen what he could have done with the extra cash and resources Martinez has had. We'd certainly be fighting for top 4 currently rather than heading for another mid table finish.

 

Anyway, the fool went and took the most poisened job in football, got shafted, and I bet regrets that decision more and more everyday! But still, he's a better manager than our current one imo, fa cup winner or not.

 

Thank you, David. How's the tan?

[MC11]

I'd take Moyes back in a heartbeat. As long as he's learnt from his mistakes. He's a bit more expansive going forward etc

[Sibdane]

I'd take Moyes back in a heartbeat. As long as he's learnt from his mistakes. He's a bit more expansive going forward etc

 

No, thanks. I appreciate Moyes, but he's not going to change just like Martinez probably isn't.

 

I just don't think it would show a lot of ambition if we ever brought him back. His reputation is tarnished a bit now, and he's more stubborn than Martinez.

 

Moyes is a "safe" choice.

Edited February 16, 2016 by TonkaRoost

[London Blue]

Everyone knows that Moyes was great at organizing a team that was hard to break down, and was very, well drilled. His teams were also rather dull and didn't have much flair.

 

Martinez is the opposite, his teams can create many chances and and play with an attacking flair few can match. Defensively his teams are not as defensively organised and ship far too many goals.

 

If you combined them together in some Jekyll and Hyde character you probably would have the perfect Everton Manager.

 

To go back to Moyes would be to swing the pendulum too far in the way of defensive playing, we would go back to having defensive subs when were trailing by a goal, playing players out of position, playing his favorites week in and week out, and not having enough adventure.

 

Some say Moyes has grown as a manager and I don't doubt he has learnt from managing Utd and managing in Spain, but the fans of those clubs had the same problems with him we did. Going back to Moyes would be a step back.

 

As for Martinez, I go back to our greatest manager in my memory, Howard Kendall who said it took 3 years to build a team, those 3 years are up at the end of this season. So I expect to see an improvement in defense, a more balanced side that can play out for wins and stay solid when under pressure. Who also retain the attacking flair an score goals. In the transfer window I expect us to sign a right back, a replacement for Stones if he goes, a top goalkeeper, and genuine play-maker, as well as replacing anyone who leaves.

[markjazzbassist]

I'd take Moyes back in a heartbeat. As long as he's learnt from his mistakes. He's a bit more expansive going forward etc

 

he wouldn't be my first choice but i wouldn't fear relegation every christmas like i do with RM. i don't know what people are saying about not playing exciting football under him either, i loved the way gibson/arteta/etc would move the ball quickly to the left flank and pienaar and baines would dash down the left, do a quick 1-2 and put either a cross or shot in the box. enough that Vic and Jela were scoring decent amounts of goals (look at them now, barely goals between them 2). It was direct and fast. I just didn't like the close up shop approach, but that attack i loved.

[MikeO]

 

he wouldn't be my first choice but i wouldn't fear relegation every christmas like i do with RM. i don't know what people are saying about not playing exciting football under him either, i loved the way gibson/arteta/etc would move the ball quickly to the left flank and pienaar and baines would dash down the left, do a quick 1-2 and put either a cross or shot in the box. enough that Vic and Jela were scoring decent amounts of goals (look at them now, barely goals between them 2). It was direct and fast. I just didn't like the close up shop approach, but that attack i loved.

 

Vic scoring a decent amount of goals ? He was a one in seven man for us and has gone on to be a one in eight for West Brom. Jelavic had a purple patch when he joined us in Jan 2011 but after that he scored less than one in five.

 

Your memory need tweaking Mark.

[markjazzbassist]

 

Vic scoring a decent amount of goals ? He was a one in seven man for us and has gone on to be a one in eight for West Brom. Jelavic had a purple patch when he joined us in Jan 2011 but after that he scored less than one in five.

 

Your memory need tweaking Mark.

 

5 one year and 6 the next is a decent amount of goals. not spectacular (i would have used that wording) but just that, decent. Consequently went to WBA and got 3 and 3. halved his goals scored, pretty big difference.

 

Jelavic in 50 had 16 and for hull in 46 had 13. He scored more with us, again decent numbers for a striker, nothing mind blowing but that's my point. they're both not great and when fed they scored.

[MikeO]

 

5 one year and 6 the next is a decent amount of goals. not spectacular (i would have used that wording) but just that, decent. Consequently went to WBA and got 3 and 3. halved his goals scored, pretty big difference.

 

Jelavic in 50 had 16 and for hull in 46 had 13. He scored more with us, again decent numbers for a striker, nothing mind blowing but that's my point. they're both not great and when fed they scored.

 

If you think that's a decent return for a striker in a team finishing top six/seven then fair enough, we'll just have to disagree. But you then went on to say you "loved" that attack, which is a bit more of an endorsement than "decent".

 

Pienaar & Baines were certainly great on the left, but when you have to rely on that because you have f'ck all down the right all is not well.

[markjazzbassist]

 

If you think that's a decent return for a striker in a team finishing top six/seven then fair enough, we'll just have to disagree. But you then went on to say you "loved" that attack, which is a bit more of an endorsement than "decent".

 

Pienaar & Baines were certainly great on the left, but when you have to rely on that because you have f'ck all down the right all is not well.

 

i loved the direct attack style, how quickly we transitioned from defense to offense and moved the ball up the pitch. it was more exciting to watch. i agree they weren't great strikers by any measurement, but serviceable with what we had money wise.

 

again i'm not in the bring moyes back camp, but i'm not going to lie and say i didn't like the way we attacked. i did, i feel no shame. there are times when i love the way we play under RM. Arsenal matches the first year are 2 of them, we attacked like mad (played a 433) and closed down balls like a Klopp side. Just wish we saw that every week.

[MC11]

Mike seems to have a terrible memory, Moyes had nobody down the right because he never had a pot to piss in most seasons. He did the best with the little funds he had. Martinez on the itherhand has been backed handsomely. Yet can't get results

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Everyone knows that Moyes was great at organizing a team that was hard to break down, and was very, well drilled. His teams were also rather dull and didn't have much flair.

 

Martinez is the opposite, his teams can create many chances and and play with an attacking flair few can match. Defensively his teams are not as defensively organised and ship far too many goals.

 

If you combined them together in some Jekyll and Hyde character you probably would have the perfect Everton Manager.

 

To go back to Moyes would be to swing the pendulum too far in the way of defensive playing, we would go back to having defensive subs when were trailing by a goal, playing players out of position, playing his favorites week in and week out, and not having enough adventure.

 

Some say Moyes has grown as a manager and I don't doubt he has learnt from managing Utd and managing in Spain, but the fans of those clubs had the same problems with him we did. Going back to Moyes would be a step back.

 

As for Martinez, I go back to our greatest manager in my memory, Howard Kendall who said it took 3 years to build a team, those 3 years are up at the end of this season. So I expect to see an improvement in defense, a more balanced side that can play out for wins and stay solid when under pressure. Who also retain the attacking flair an score goals. In the transfer window I expect us to sign a right back, a replacement for Stones if he goes, a top goalkeeper, and genuine play-maker, as well as replacing anyone who leaves.

To be fair a Sunday league manager would be quite capable of getting this side to score goals, especially if you told them not to worry about defending and results didn't matter

 

Every manager has his favourites and Roberto is no different just look at Barry, McCarthy, Howard and Kone

 

To listen to some people on here you would think Moyes was in the same bracket as Tony Pullis. It is an absolute fallacy that we were just hoofball merchants under him

 

If that had been the case the likes of Osman, Mirallas ,Arteta and Piennar would never of had a look in