Jordan Pickford

[Matt]

11 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

 

I'll be extremely shocked if we aren't in for a goalkeeper in the next 2 days... Extremely. 

Considering the money spent this window and the lad from Norwich coming any day now, there won’t be any money to replace him. Plus then you need to move him on, get the new guy settled... You’re going to be shocked until next summer at the earliest. 

5 minutes ago, London Blue said:

And replace Pickford with whom?

Then there’s this small question too. 

[Shukes]

3 hours ago, Palfy said:

He hasn’t cost us any points as yet I agree more by luck than judgment, but If we are going to compare him on points won or lost he’s still in credit 2-3 points from the Spurs game. 
Every keeper in every league will cost their team points at some stage of the season, when that happens to Pickford which it will the venom that’s going to be directed at him will be completely over the top, I feel for him and it hasn’t happened yet. 
Every game that we have conceded in whether down to him or not and especially the 2 down to him, it has spurred us on to play better and batter the opposition for daring to score against us, and also shows the rest of the team are behind him and want to cover his mistakes. Just a shame more supporters can’t get behind as the manager and team have. 

Mate surely you can see that’s a weak argument? We’re lucky it hasn’t cost us any points. 
Noting to do with his ability, but rather our ability to score goals.

If my team mate let us down, I would fight hard for the team... not the individual.

I stick up for players, but not that. That was poor, very poor.

[Hafnia]

6 minutes ago, London Blue said:

And replace Pickford with whom?

Oh I love this angle of debate .... I'm pretty sure I had plenty of these when I said we needed to sack managers or replace Lukaku with a more rounded striker.  We've gone from Allardyce to Ancellotti and DcL is scoring at the highest rate of any player since lineker.... Maybe more. 

I think I'll take :-  rajkovic, donnarumma, Romero

[Btay]

18 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

I have always backed Pickford but that ends today. What he did in todays game was embarrassing, shambolic, and just plain fucking stupid.

We're not replacing him in this window, and probably not the next, but we have to go all out for a keeper at the end of the season (be as proactive as we were with the midfield this off-season). No getting someone in to push him, we pay big and we buy better than him.

Learn from Liverpool, lets not have a howler in a cup final be the point where we actually say we need a new keeper. His arrogance works against him here and i believe thats made people less patient with him. Needs to go. 

[Bill]

Another poor mistake, he's getting away with it because we are scoring more than he let's in. The time will come when we don't score, and he will start loosing us points.

[Hafnia]

14 minutes ago, Matt said:

Considering the money spent this window and the lad from Norwich coming any day now, there won’t be any money to replace him. Plus then you need to move him on, get the new guy settled... You’re going to be shocked until next summer at the earliest. 

Then there’s this small question too. 

Do you honestly honestly think that brands and his team haven't run the rule over all keepers in most leagues in the world for the past 18 months at least?

On moneyball principles alone if doesn't make sense not to compare his stats Vs those who are cheaper/available in other leagues and to take a punt. 

Andy (el piv) ran the rule over Pickfords stats and other keepers across Europe who are viable targets.

One interesting fact he stated was that of all world class keepers over the years - all of them were world class by 26.  Some maintain it into later years and some burnout.  Pickford is 26 and hasn't played well since he was 24 ... His trajectory is very much reminiscent of Richard Wright. 

[London Blue]

16 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Oh I love this angle of debate .... I'm pretty sure I had plenty of these when I said we needed to sack managers or replace Lukaku with a more rounded striker.  We've gone from Allardyce to Ancellotti and DcL is scoring at the highest rate of any player since lineker.... Maybe more. 

I think I'll take :-  rajkovic, donnarumma, Romero

Haff, not entirely sure what the first part of your answer is about, so I will ignore that.....

Your choices

Rajkovic - Just joined Reims from the footballing powerhouse league that is Israel.

Donnarumma - Milan's no 1 keeper and has been for years, not likely to sell so close to the end of the transfer window.

Romero - Utds back up keeper, not exactly proven to be a better option, even if Utd would sell to a rival.

[Matt]

28 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Do you honestly honestly think that brands and his team haven't run the rule over all keepers in most leagues in the world for the past 18 months at least?

On moneyball principles alone if doesn't make sense not to compare his stats Vs those who are cheaper/available in other leagues and to take a punt. 

Andy (el piv) ran the rule over Pickfords stats and other keepers across Europe who are viable targets.

One interesting fact he stated was that of all world class keepers over the years - all of them were world class by 26.  Some maintain it into later years and some burnout.  Pickford is 26 and hasn't played well since he was 24 ... His trajectory is very much reminiscent of Richard Wright. 

Im sure they are looking, that’s their job for all areas of the pitch.  I doubt we have the money this window, and it would be very complicated to sort everything out in a couple of days. I’m not disagreeing that upgrading isn’t important, it’s just not going to happen until next summer. 

[Zoo 2.0]

Us not having money isn't an issue, we could always just loan someone in with an obligation to buy so that we could pay the cash next summer, something a lot of clubs are doing (Juventus with Kean for example). 

It just depends who our targets are, how deep into negotiation with them we are and what their clubs stance is. 

[Matt]

38 minutes ago, Zoo 2.0 said:

Us not having money isn't an issue, we could always just loan someone in with an obligation to buy so that we could pay the cash next summer, something a lot of clubs are doing (Juventus with Kean for example). 

It just depends who our targets are, how deep into negotiation with them we are and what their clubs stance is. 

Pickford is going to be our number 1 until the end of next season, we just have to accept it. Unless some genuine world class keeper is willing to be sold by his club, even if the loan with obligation to buy works out (they may be in dire need of cash now) and Pickford being sold in a couple of days... it’s just not going to happen 

[Hafnia]

1 hour ago, London Blue said:

Haff, not entirely sure what the first part of your answer is about, so I will ignore that.....

Your choices

Rajkovic - Just joined Reims from the footballing powerhouse league that is Israel.

Donnarumma - Milan's no 1 keeper and has been for years, not likely to sell so close to the end of the transfer window.

Romero - Utds back up keeper, not exactly proven to be a better option, even if Utd would sell to a rival.

The first part of my answer points to what you just predictably did....  When I stated I wasn't happy with someone and I was asked who I wanted.... And then I gave the answer my choices were challenged.

So if I told you 2 years ago that we would go from Allardyce to Ancellotti you would have no doubt laughed. .. maybe if I told you James Rodriguez and Allan would join us you would laugh... If I told you DCL would score more goals and be a more productive player than Lukaku you would laugh.    

So... Looking at the goalkeeper situation it wouldn't surprise me if Ancellotti landed Oblak or Stegen ....

But all 3 of those keepers I named are gettable and better than Pickford - guaranteed. Not even debatable. 

What's your thoughts on rajkovic? I'm not asking who he plays for and what league, we signed the world's best keeper from Bury. 

[Aidan]

3 minutes ago, Matt said:

Pickford is going to be our number 1 until the end of next season, we just have to accept it. Unless some genuine world class keeper is willing to be sold by his club, even if the loan with obligation to buy works out (they may be in dire need of cash now) and Pickford being sold in a couple of days... it’s just not going to happen 

Certainly looks this way. Wouldn't be against buying adequate cover/rotation for him though. He will cost us points this season, or a cup run. 

[Hafnia]

6 minutes ago, Matt said:

Pickford is going to be our number 1 until the end of next season, we just have to accept it. Unless some genuine world class keeper is willing to be sold by his club, even if the loan with obligation to buy works out (they may be in dire need of cash now) and Pickford being sold in a couple of days... it’s just not going to happen 

We don't need a world class keeper. We just need one that doesn't look like an amateur, that in itself would be an upgrade

[London Blue]

11 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

But all 3 of those keepers I named are gettable and better than Pickford - guaranteed. Not even debatable. 

What's your thoughts on rajkovic? I'm not asking who he plays for and what league, we signed the world's best keeper from Bury. 

I have explained why we are unlikely to get the keepers you listed. If we do get one of them and he is the new no 1 then I will be cheering him on. But I don't think we will. I would still want Pickford to rediscover his confidence and form tho.

Rajikovic, has played a few games in a weak French league, but he is good enough for Rennes to sell their other goalkeeper to Chelsea, so what I think of him is academic as he is going nowhere this season.

[pete0]

4 hours ago, Hafnia said:

I'm actually trying to think of the worst keeper to win a premier league medal ... 

Ederson has just made a right howler tbf

Joe Hart and Kasper Schmeichel. Seaman when he was past it. Any keeper at United bar schmiechel, de gea, and van de sar.

1 hour ago, Shukes said:

Mate surely you can see that’s a weak argument? We’re lucky it hasn’t cost us any points. 
Noting to do with his ability, but rather our ability to score goals.

If my team mate let us down, I would fight hard for the team... not the individual.

I stick up for players, but not that. That was poor, very poor.

How many points has he cost us since he's been here?

__

He'svictim number one at the moment, seen it happen to Lukaku, seen it happen to Davies, walcott, Osman,Fellaibi. The hate right now is disproportionate to the player. If you have issue with all these players more likely you're a sheep than someone capable of independent thought.

[Aidan]

2 minutes ago, pete0 said:

The hate right now is disproportionate to the player. If you have issue with all these players more likely you're a sheep than someone capable of independent thought.

He's been making errors almost game in game out. He's obviously not improving and this is going to be a problem for us this season. At this stage it looks like we have to ride it out but he will need replacing if we want to be taken seriously. 

[Hafnia]

10 minutes ago, Aidan said:

He's been making errors almost game in game out. He's obviously not improving and this is going to be a problem for us this season. At this stage it looks like we have to ride it out but he will need replacing if we want to be taken seriously. 

If he gets really bad then PSG may buy him for £30m. 

[Palfy]

2 hours ago, Bill said:

Another poor mistake, he's getting away with it because we are scoring more than he let's in. The time will come when we don't score, and he will start loosing us points.

Well if we get to the stage where we don’t score then does that mean we can accuse players on the pitch for costing us points, or is that just something you can aim at keepers for playing poorly. 

[StevO]

3 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

I have always backed Pickford but that ends today. What he did in todays game was embarrassing, shambolic, and just plain fucking stupid.

We're not replacing him in this window, and probably not the next, but we have to go all out for a keeper at the end of the season (be as proactive as we were with the midfield this off-season). No getting someone in to push him, we pay big and we buy better than him.

Think I’m feeling the same. 

[Palfy]

3 hours ago, Shukes said:

Mate surely you can see that’s a weak argument? We’re lucky it hasn’t cost us any points. 
Noting to do with his ability, but rather our ability to score goals.

If my team mate let us down, I would fight hard for the team... not the individual.

I stick up for players, but not that. That was poor, very poor.

Then in my eyes that makes you a poor team mate, in the best teams players fight for each other that is a fundamental for every player in every team. I shouldn’t have to be telling you that like myself you have done your coaching badges and these things are addressed, or they were in my day unless you’re saying not anymore?

[Hafnia]

31 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Well if we get to the stage where we don’t score then does that mean we can accuse players on the pitch for costing us points, or is that just something you can aim at keepers for playing poorly. 

Yeah I think so - that's always been the case.    Let's face it the likes of Lukaku, Kone, DCL all got shit at certain stages for missing easy chances. 

The issue with Pickfords errors have been that they are mainly fundamentally basic tasks... It's the equivalent of a striker doing an air shot from 8 yards.   They are mistakes that professional keepers shouldn't make - let alone a premier league international. 

ive seen enough football over the years to spot when a goalkeeper has lost it. It happens and it's unfortunate... Scott Carson, Paul Robinson,  Robert Green, Chris Kirkland, Richard Wright, David James, Ben Foster, Joe Hart.....   They have what appears to be an aura and that aura can go in a matter of a game or two. Mistakes get into their heads and that's it .... They need a fresh start, they stop playing for their country.... So e regain an element of form many don't go back to anything like they were.  Peter Shilton was one of the worst ... Awful.  Cost us 3 world cups.  Built a reputation as a shot stopper but made some of the worst mistakes I've seen. 

[London Blue]

8 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Then in my eyes that makes you a poor team mate, in the best teams players fight for each other that is a fundamental for every player in every team. I shouldn’t have to be telling you that like myself you have done your coaching badges and these things are addressed, or they were in my day unless you’re saying not anymore?

This, its not called a team for nothing!

[barryj]

I can’t see him turning it around in the short term. He’s made so many mistakes and is in the spotlight. In the second half he had two easy catches and he elected to punch (which is my absolute pet hate!). I think the pressure at the moment is too much and I’d actually rather give a start to our backups as I really can’t see them doing worse. 

[Palfy]

16 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Yeah I think so - that's always been the case.    Let's face it the likes of Lukaku, Kone, DCL all got shit at certain stages for missing easy chances. 

The issue with Pickfords errors have been that they are mainly fundamentally basic tasks... It's the equivalent of a striker doing an air shot from 8 yards.   They are mistakes that professional keepers shouldn't make - let alone a premier league international. 

ive seen enough football over the years to spot when a goalkeeper has lost it. It happens and it's unfortunate... Scott Carson, Paul Robinson,  Robert Green, Chris Kirkland, Richard Wright, David James, Ben Foster, Joe Hart.....   They have what appears to be an aura and that aura can go in a matter of a game or two. Mistakes get into their heads and that's it .... They need a fresh start, they stop playing for their country.... So e regain an element of form many don't go back to anything like they were.  Peter Shilton was one of the worst ... Awful.  Cost us 3 world cups.  Built a reputation as a shot stopper but made some of the worst mistakes I've seen. 

I’m not denying he’s going through a tough spell, but I believe he will turn it around and I believe at this moment in time Ancelotti feels the same, you have called him the worst keeper in the league and an amateur, yet he hasn’t been dropped by Ancelotti for Lossle which would seem bizarre if what you have said holds much weight. 
Why do you believe that Ancelotti and Southgate haven’t dropped him to date, and I’m not saying that won’t happen, to many games like today and that will happen I realise that, but for now his coaches and managers seem to have more faith in him, so he must be showing them that he as the ability to turn his fortunes round, because if not the only other thing we can say about them is they haven’t got clue what they are doing when it comes to keepers, and I’m not having that they’ve seen more football and keepers than the 2 of us put together, so it’s only logical that they know what there doing. 

[DownUnderToff]

Can't see a replacement coming in at this stage, so... Hopefully Southgate benches him.  Give him a reality check, take some pressure off, and make him chase it again.

That said, wonder if Alexander Nubel would be interested in a 12 month loan.

[Shukes]

7 hours ago, Palfy said:

Then in my eyes that makes you a poor team mate, in the best teams players fight for each other that is a fundamental for every player in every team. I shouldn’t have to be telling you that like myself you have done your coaching badges and these things are addressed, or they were in my day unless you’re saying not anymore?

 Exactly you fight for each other, not a single person. They teach you this.

A football team is exactly that, a team. Maybe in your day it was more about the individual, but I teach my lads teamwork. 
 

The FA training never once taught me to focus on teaching anything other than teamwork mate. You got taught by the wrong people honestly.

[Palfy]

30 minutes ago, Shukes said:

 Exactly you fight for each other, not a single person. They teach you this.

A football team is exactly that, a team. Maybe in your day it was more about the individual, but I teach my lads teamwork. 
 

The FA training never once taught me to focus on teaching anything other than teamwork mate. You got taught by the wrong people honestly.

I did my FA coaching through Swindon Town hardly the wrong people, are you having a Homer moment doh Is Pickford not part of the team then, you teach players to look after each other, Glen Hoddle use to say his mistake is your mistake, if you have to cover for someone you cover, if someone makes a mistake a team fights to correct that mistake, you will never or shouldn’t hear a player criticising another player for a mistake, but you will often hear players defend team mates for making mistakes as individuals, and as a coach you should be telling your lads that. 
An example that I used to use was that let’s say anyone of you here make a bad judgment that cost us a game, how are you going to feel as an individual walking off that pitch and for the next few days, you are going to feel like shit you are going to shrink as a person, so when that happens I want you as a team to fight to fight to cancel out that mistake, because I don’t want any of you walking off that pitch feeling like shit, and most importantly you don’t want one of your team mates feeling like that after a game because if you don’t fight for your team mates then one day it might be you coming off that pitch feeling like shit. 
Other great examples you see on the pitch of players supporting individuals is when a player has made a howler and cost his team the lead, then the team fight back a regain the lead team mates around the individual who made the howler will go to him and celebrate because they are just as happy for him as taking the lead, also penalties in a shoot out you don’t knife the player in the back who has missed the last pen that has cost you the game, you go and commiserate with them give them a hug as an individual you should know what there going through. 
Supporters criticise and stab the players in the back of the teams they follow not the coaches or players of that team they protect and fight for each other on and off the pitch, good coaching promotes good harmony and team work with each other as a team and individuals. 
I was working with Swindon from 90-93 I did 2 weekly courses at Lilleshall, I gave up being involved in football to concentrate on my family and business and I’ll be honest with you not necessarily in that order, which was a mistake but I cannot turn the clock back so you learn to live with your mistakes. 
Anyway to sum up individuals are important in a team players and coaches learn to look after individuals, and all the individuals make the team strong. 

[Matt]

11 hours ago, Hafnia said:

We don't need a world class keeper. We just need one that doesn't look like an amateur, that in itself would be an upgrade

Isnt that the goal though? To work towards a world class team? Why replace him with someone who’s a bit better? Can’t remember who made the point, but Liverpool and City went and bought the “best” keepers to help them step up, that should be our goal next season. 

Someone also mentioned Joe Hart somewhere and now that’s in my head, the parallels are very very clear  

[badaids]

You can see in most of the more senior players - Siggy, Davies, Keane - they have upped their game now there is something to play for other than their places. Pickford on the other hand seems to be going in the other direction. Needs to sort it out between the ears. In the meantime get Romero in.

[Hafnia]

9 hours ago, Palfy said:

I’m not denying he’s going through a tough spell, but I believe he will turn it around and I believe at this moment in time Ancelotti feels the same, you have called him the worst keeper in the league and an amateur, yet he hasn’t been dropped by Ancelotti for Lossle which would seem bizarre if what you have said holds much weight. 
Why do you believe that Ancelotti and Southgate haven’t dropped him to date, and I’m not saying that won’t happen, to many games like today and that will happen I realise that, but for now his coaches and managers seem to have more faith in him, so he must be showing them that he as the ability to turn his fortunes round, because if not the only other thing we can say about them is they haven’t got clue what they are doing when it comes to keepers, and I’m not having that they’ve seen more football and keepers than the 2 of us put together, so it’s only logical that they know what there doing. 

 Goalkeepers get continuity.  Once they get the shirt they are in for a spell unless there is an agreement that one will play League cup etc. 

Once Pickford is dropped it will be for a period, not just a few games. 

This situation has been specifically spoken about on talksport.   Maybe Ancellotti doesn't see enough in lossl to justify dropping Pickford - it has to be for a markedly improved keeper. 

We will see how it plays out but he is absolutely our weak link in the team.  A goalkeeper who is the weak link is not good,  it was the midfield.... That excuse that he was not getting protected is gone now.