2019/20 Pre-season.

[Matt]

13 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Your opinion is completely fucked by your obvious hate for the man. Just look at what he done at Bolton. Newcastle fans say they didn't give him enough time, and we'll West Ham are West Ham. He's done mission impossible keeping Sunderland up, something our highly regarded Moysiah couldn't do.

Aah, so you notice how a hatred of someone distorts a view eh? My confidence in my view being accurate is knowing that everyone but you would agree with me. 

where are Bolton, Blackburn, Sunderland now. Look at the state of Newcastle, West Ham, Palace. Not saying they weren’t poor clubs before him but they’ve all suffered for his presence (although I will concede that could be pure coincidence)

[Bailey]

Of course it's not all DCLs fault that we don't score enough but he doesn't have a strikers instinct (he wasn't one for most of his youth career) and his build up play lacks any real finesse. When he has to use his strength and his pace he is a match for any defender in the league even in yesterday's game when the ball when to him and it required an intricate touch or a perfectly weighted pass to another player the move broke down. At one point he made a world class turn in their box, left the defender for dead but then tripped over the ball. We also had a 3 on 2 in the left channel and he passed the ball 5 yards behind the player he was trying to find. These things happen to all players at times, but the problem is I expect it to happen more often with DCL.

This tactics talk is also a load of rubbish. We should have scored at least 2 goals yesterday. A manager can only do so much and they are clearly set up well but they have to take their own chances in all areas of the pitch, whether that be a perfectly placed pass, a perfectly timed run or beating the keeper with a shot.

[Bailey]

FWIW in terms of xG we were the 8th best team in the league. The top 6 as expected, then Bournemouth and then us. 

Expected goals against we were also 7th best beating Utd and Arsenal but losing out to Leicester and Wolves.

To add some context that is an improvement of 10 more expected goals (11th), 6 less conceded goals (15th) and we were expected to amass an extra 8pts. 

Under Allardyce we had 4 games where we were expected to score less than 0.5 goals whereas we had 3 all season with Silva (Liverpool twice and City).

In my opinion that is a big improvement and I hope we can improve again on that this season.

[pete0]

36 minutes ago, Matt said:

Aah, so you notice how a hatred of someone distorts a view eh? My confidence in my view being accurate is knowing that everyone but you would agree with me. 

where are Bolton, Blackburn, Sunderland now. Look at the state of Newcastle, West Ham, Palace. Not saying they weren’t poor clubs before him but they’ve all suffered for his presence (although I will concede that could be pure coincidence)

I don't hate Gana. He wasn't picking himself. I was just frustrated he was on the pitch as I knew he'd give away an easy chance plus added nothing going forward. 

How on earth is their problems his fault? He wasn't at Newcastle long enough. Sunderland and Palace both stayed up thanks to him. Bolton played far beyond their means and he did try and move away from the defensive style with the likes of Djorkaeff, Anelka, and Okocha. West ham were a lower mid table club and the chairman got what they paid him for. I can't remember his time at Blackburn. 

[Matt]

4 minutes ago, pete0 said:

I don't hate Gana. He wasn't picking himself. I was just frustrated he was on the pitch as I knew he'd give away an easy chance plus added nothing going forward. 

How on earth is their problems his fault? He wasn't at Newcastle long enough. Sunderland and Palace both stayed up thanks to him. Bolton played far beyond their means and he did try and move away from the defensive style with the likes of Djorkaeff, Anelka, and Okocha. West ham were a lower mid table club and the chairman got what they paid him for. I can't remember his time at Blackburn. 

I don’t hate the previous manager either. I hold nothing but contempt for him because he’s a corrupt mercenary, but he doesn’t deserve hate. I’m equally embarrassed by the fact his name will be forever linked with Everton.

As for the list of clubs, I was making a ridiculous statement to prove a point - making stupid remarks undermines the post entirely. Of course i don’t think he’s personally responsible, but in several cases I do think he exacerbated things even further with poor signings (Bolton excludes, but that was nearly 15-20 years ago so completely irrelevant in my opinion) and a negative approach to man management and tactics. 

[pete0]

26 minutes ago, Bailey said:

FWIW in terms of xG we were the 8th best team in the league. The top 6 as expected, then Bournemouth and then us. 

Expected goals against we were also 7th best beating Utd and Arsenal but losing out to Leicester and Wolves.

To add some context that is an improvement of 10 more expected goals (11th), 6 less conceded goals (15th) and we were expected to amass an extra 8pts. 

Under Allardyce we had 4 games where we were expected to score less than 0.5 goals whereas we had 3 all season with Silva (Liverpool twice and City).

In my opinion that is a big improvement and I hope we can improve again on that this season.

I'd credit Brands and the players with the improvement. Goals conceded we had Williams and Jagielka play half a season each last year as well as Keane who had an issue that made him phenomenally plop. 

Goals scored wise just look at the difference in attack. We lacked pace until we brought in Walcott at the end of January. Then we had DCL and Tosun both in a learning phase up top. Plus the full backs which are expected to help in attack so much these days we had Martina and a leggy Baines on the left, and an inexperienced Kenny or not fully fit Coleman on the right. 

Alladyce averaged 1.42 points per game compared to Silva's 1.43. No doubt in my mind that Allardyce would have improved by more than 0.01 points per game given all the extra players and Keane and Coleman being fit. 

[StevO]

6 hours ago, pete0 said:

Alladyce averaged 1.42 points per game compared to Silva's 1.43. No doubt in my mind that Allardyce would have improved by more than 0.01 points per game given all the extra players and Keane and Coleman being fit. 

You’ve seen Sam buy Walcott (who I like) and Tosun (I don’t know how they got so much money out of us for him), what makes you think he could attract the higher caliber of player to improve us?

I don’t see Sam being able to bring in Richarlison, Gomes, Digne or Kean. 

[Romey 1878]

7 hours ago, pete0 said:

I'd credit Brands and the players with the improvement. Goals conceded we had Williams and Jagielka play half a season each last year as well as Keane who had an issue that made him phenomenally plop. 

Goals scored wise just look at the difference in attack. We lacked pace until we brought in Walcott at the end of January. Then we had DCL and Tosun both in a learning phase up top. Plus the full backs which are expected to help in attack so much these days we had Martina and a leggy Baines on the left, and an inexperienced Kenny or not fully fit Coleman on the right. 

Alladyce averaged 1.42 points per game compared to Silva's 1.43. No doubt in my mind that Allardyce would have improved by more than 0.01 points per game given all the extra players and Keane and Coleman being fit. 

Talking about attack in relation to that period under Bisto tits is too funny, Pete. We barely had shots on goal, never mind shots that actually hit the target! Scrap that, we barely entered the oppositions fucking half of the pitch!

You say you’d have liked him to have been given another season... I was so put off by another second of that dick head that I wouldn’t have set foot inside Goodison again until he was gone. I’m not even sure I could’ve stomached watching us on the tv/a stream. The attack was getting worse the longer he was here, the defence were shipping goals (he didn’t shore us up at all). He’d have destroyed us if given more time and more money to spend. 

I don’t know how you can dislike Silva because you think he doesn’t take any responsibility when we play badly but be on board with that fucker getting more time when he blamed everyone else but himself for us playing some of the worst football (if you can call it that) I have ever seen. 

[London Blue]

7 hours ago, pete0 said:

Alladyce averaged 1.42 points per game compared to Silva's 1.43. No doubt in my mind that Allardyce would have improved by more than 0.01 points per game given all the extra players and Keane and Coleman being fit. 

Hand on heart, do you honestly think that the players we have now would have signed for us if we had Allardyce as manager, given the style of football he wants his teams to play? 

[Matt]

1 hour ago, London Blue said:

Hand on heart, do you honestly think that the players we have now would have signed for us if we had Allardyce as manager, given the style of football he wants his teams to play? 

Even with Brands in play? Not a fucking one. 

[Romey 1878]

7 minutes ago, Matt said:

Even with Brands in play? Not a fucking one. 

I doubt Brands would’ve agreed to come if that was the manager he had to work with. Talk about incompatible philosophies. 

[pete0]

4 hours ago, StevO said:

You’ve seen Sam buy Walcott (who I like) and Tosun (I don’t know how they got so much money out of us for him), what makes you think he could attract the higher caliber of player to improve us?

I don’t see Sam being able to bring in Richarlison, Gomes, Digne or Kean. 

Bar Richarlison the rest signed for Brands not Silva. Why would someone sign for a nobody manger in Silva over Alladyce? Fat Sam, gravy chops or whatever you want to call him, manged to get Anelka, okocha and Djorkaeff to sign for Bolton! 

I'd be very surprised if Silva out lasts Brands. 

[SpartyBlue]

33 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Bar Richarlison the rest signed for Brands not Silva. Why would someone sign for a nobody manger in Silva over Alladyce? Fat Sam, gravy chops or whatever you want to call him, manged to get Anelka, okocha and Djorkaeff to sign for Bolton! 

I'd be very surprised if Silva out lasts Brands. 

How do you know the reasons they all signed? It’s fine to speculate (that’s half the posts on any forum) but at least qualify it with “I think” because none of us really knows unless something is stated by the players themselves.

[pete0]

6 hours ago, SpartyBlue said:

How do you know the reasons they all signed? It’s fine to speculate (that’s half the posts on any forum) but at least qualify it with “I think” because none of us really knows unless something is stated by the players themselves.

Because Brands is well known in football and it's his job to sign the players. Unless there's a link between the player and the manager or some other reason I think it's fair to assume Brands is the man. 

[Romey 1878]

10 hours ago, pete0 said:

Bar Richarlison the rest signed for Brands not Silva. Why would someone sign for a nobody manger in Silva over Alladyce? Fat Sam, gravy chops or whatever you want to call him, manged to get Anelka, okocha and Djorkaeff to sign for Bolton! 

I'd be very surprised if Silva out lasts Brands. 

While Brands will have obviously played a big role in all of our signings it’s ridiculous to completely overlook the manager (whoever he is) in it. It’s the manager that the player is playing for and deals with on a day to day basis, there needs to be a relationship there, a good feeling. If there isn’t then players will turn down the move. 

Id be surprised if Silva is here longer than Brands as well. But it’s not a case of “out lasting”. It’s just that that is the whole point of a DoF; that they are the driving force of the culture and way we want to go forward, while the managers can come and go. 

[StevO]

46 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

While Brands will have obviously played a big role in all of our signings it’s ridiculous to completely overlook the manager (whoever he is) in it. It’s the manager that the player is playing for and deals with on a day to day basis, there needs to be a relationship there, a good feeling. If there isn’t then players will turn down the move. 

Id be surprised if Silva is here longer than Brands as well. But it’s not a case of “out lasting”. It’s just that that is the whole point of a DoF; that they are the driving force of the culture and way we want to go forward, while the managers can come and go. 

Exactly! That’s why you sign a manager on a fixed term contract and the DoF on a permanent contract, and sometimes a position on the board. 

[Bailey]

Plus I think all the players commented on signing in part due to chats with Silva.

 

[plaidharper]

I cannot wait for the day when Fat Sam is NEVER mentioned again on this forum.  Every time I read anything in regards to him I just feel ill. Such dark days those were.

[Matt]

2 hours ago, Bailey said:

Plus I think all the players commented on signing in part due to chats with Silva.

Don’t be silly! People just sign up because of Marcel and the pay package, and are always willing to just get on with the job. No one goes in and says “oh, and who will be responsible for choosing me, for training me, for mentoring me, for xyz. Actually, doesn’t matter”...

 

[barryj]

17 hours ago, pete0 said:

Why would someone sign for a nobody manger in Silva over Alladyce? Fat Sam, gravy chops or whatever you want to call him, manged to get Anelka, okocha and Djorkaeff to sign for Bolton! 

can’t believe you’ve had to go back to 2006 to evidence Sam as a good manager. 

Why would they sign for a nobody Silva over Alladyce? Because players aren’t daft and have seen the football Sam plays and they'd sign for Silva in belief of what he wants to achieve not necessarily what he has achieved.

[Bailey]

On 04/08/2019 at 13:32, pete0 said:

I'd credit Brands and the players with the improvement. Goals conceded we had Williams and Jagielka play half a season each last year as well as Keane who had an issue that made him phenomenally plop. 

Goals scored wise just look at the difference in attack. We lacked pace until we brought in Walcott at the end of January. Then we had DCL and Tosun both in a learning phase up top. Plus the full backs which are expected to help in attack so much these days we had Martina and a leggy Baines on the left, and an inexperienced Kenny or not fully fit Coleman on the right. 

Alladyce averaged 1.42 points per game compared to Silva's 1.43. No doubt in my mind that Allardyce would have improved by more than 0.01 points per game given all the extra players and Keane and Coleman being fit. 

Allardyce at West Ham in his last season:

46.49 xG (Silva last season 53.87)

57.40 xGA (Silva last season 49.31 - West Ham 3rd worst expected goals against in the league)

47 xPoints (Silva last season 55.54)

Plus he signed this rabble: Kouyate, Cresswell, Valencia, Jenkinson, Sakho, Song, Amalfitano, Zaurate.

Sunderland (came in after the first 8 games):

40.52 xG

58.85 xGA (3rd worst in the league)

40 xPoints

He signed Kone, Kichoff and Khazri in January.

Harder to asses Silva as he has mainly had half seasons prior to joining us but in terms of an average xG per game he was 1.03 at Hull and 1.27 at Watford for the games he managed (Allardyce 1.13 at Sunderland, 1.22 at West Ham after several seasons).

Basically, there is no evidence to suggest that Allardyce would have brought about better attacking performance than Silva.

[barryj]

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

Basically, there is no evidence to suggest that Allardyce would have brought about better attacking performance than Silva.

I think you’ve just evidenced that Allardyce wouldn’t have brought about a better attacking performance than Silva. 

But I am bias as I couldn’t stand Sam as Everton manager. If I had to listen to another post match interview or watch another 90 mins of his dire football I don’t know what I’d of done. 

[pete0]

4 hours ago, barryj said:

can’t believe you’ve had to go back to 2006 to evidence Sam as a good manager. 

Why would they sign for a nobody Silva over Alladyce? Because players aren’t daft and have seen the football Sam plays and they'd sign for Silva in belief of what he wants to achieve not necessarily what he has achieved.

Walcott is possibly our most well known player and spent most his career under Wenger yet was convinced to join by Alladyce. What players have signed for Silva? I only see Richarlison. 

3 hours ago, Bailey said:

Allardyce at West Ham in his last season:

46.49 xG (Silva last season 53.87)

57.40 xGA (Silva last season 49.31 - West Ham 3rd worst expected goals against in the league)

47 xPoints (Silva last season 55.54)

Plus he signed this rabble: Kouyate, Cresswell, Valencia, Jenkinson, Sakho, Song, Amalfitano, Zaurate.

Sunderland (came in after the first 8 games):

40.52 xG

58.85 xGA (3rd worst in the league)

40 xPoints

He signed Kone, Kichoff and Khazri in January.

Harder to asses Silva as he has mainly had half seasons prior to joining us but in terms of an average xG per game he was 1.03 at Hull and 1.27 at Watford for the games he managed (Allardyce 1.13 at Sunderland, 1.22 at West Ham after several seasons).

Basically, there is no evidence to suggest that Allardyce would have brought about better attacking performance than Silva.

 

What would you expect from them teams? 

He got 1.42 points with our unbalanced mess. You add the players we got and any manager should be doing better. Even without the better players the bottom teams were that poor you'd have expected more points. (bottom 5 teams last year lost about 20% more games than the year before). 

[London Blue]

38 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Walcott is possibly our most well known player and spent most his career under Wenger yet was convinced to join by Alladyce. What players have signed for Silva? I only see Richarlison. 

Go on, tag me in.

Dinge, Mina, Gomes, Bernard, Kean, Richarlison, Gbamin. 

Its not they left high profile clubs to join us or anything..........

 

[Ghoat]

Can we make a Fat Sam pro/con thread - maybe mix it with a Gana thread?

[pete0]

8 minutes ago, London Blue said:

Go on, tag me in.

Dinge, Mina, Gomes, Bernard, Kean, Richarlison, Gbamin. 

Its not they left high profile clubs to join us or anything..........

 

How many had you heard of before they joined? Profile wise only Bernard comes close to Walcott. 

I only knew Mina from the World Cup. Bernard from the World Cup before and a couple of champs league games. Richarlison from his debut season at Watford were he looked good at first but then had a very poor second half to the season.

[London Blue]

Just now, pete0 said:

How many had you heard of before they joined? Profile wise only Bernard comes close to Walcott. 

I only knew Mina from the World Cup. Bernard from the World Cup before and a couple of champs league games. Richarlison from his debut season at Watford were he looked good at first but then had a very poor second half to the season.

Mina from the World Cup

Gomes from before he signed for Barca, which is where I found out about Dinge.

Kean from watching Italian football.

Bernard from the World Cup.

 

[pete0]

5 minutes ago, London Blue said:

Mina from the World Cup

Gomes from before he signed for Barca, which is where I found out about Dinge.

Kean from watching Italian football.

Bernard from the World Cup.

 

For you to have watched Digne and Kean you must watched nearly every Juve and Barca game. 

Kean played 533 minutes for Juve last year. 

Digne was a bit part player and only got 13 minutes against any of the other known teams over there. Zero mins against Madrid. 

As for Bernard his last cap was 2014. His only full game was the 7-1 Germany defeat. 

Gomes had a big money move but was known as a flop. 

They've all been good signing for us (Kean pending) but none of them come with the profile of Walcott. 

[Bailey]

26 minutes ago, pete0 said:

How many had you heard of before they joined? Profile wise only Bernard comes close to Walcott. 

I only knew Mina from the World Cup. Bernard from the World Cup before and a couple of champs league games. Richarlison from his debut season at Watford were he looked good at first but then had a very poor second half to the season.

I wonder how many Spaniards or Italians know about Walcott other than he is quick? 

I still wish we hadn't signed him. Nothing player on a massive wage.

[barryj]

1 hour ago, pete0 said:

How many had you heard of before they joined? Profile wise only Bernard comes close to Walcott. 

Walcott is on the way down whilst Richarlison is on the way up! I’m also not a Walcott fan. I really haven’t see him produce consistently at all. 

I hadn’t heard of Tosun before big Sam brought him in. All those @London Bluehas listed are far better signings & value for money than Tosun - just saying.