Soton (Home) Thursday July 9th

[MikeO]

6 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Because we should not be having to contain Southampton at home !

But we all pretty much expected that did we not? Of course we shouldn't have to but given the form of the two teams coming in it was predictable that we'd need to.

[Wiggytop]

Another woeful first half, change of shape in 2nd much better and we matched them, and could have got the winner. From the starting 11, Pickford ( without the fuck ups ) Coleman, Keane, Digne, DCL and Richy are worth a starting place next season, add Holgate who was sorely missed, and we need 4 starters for next season.

Amazon produced the best sound effects so far.

Credit to Carlo for changing shape and getting a point, with previous managers we would have been battered.

Can we finish the season now please.

 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

5 minutes ago, MikeO said:

But we all pretty much expected that did we not? Of course we shouldn't have to but given the form of the two teams coming in it was predictable that we'd need to.

Maybe he was expecting a reaction from the players after the Spurs shambles?

If we setup to play for a draw at home from the offset against a side sitting below us in the table then it’s time to give up 

 

[MikeO]

10 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Maybe he was expecting a reaction from the players after the Spurs shambles?

If we setup to play for a draw at home from the offset against a side sitting below us in the table then it’s time to give up 

But if we set up to contain (in the early stages) a side with their tails up and confidence levels through the roof that would be quite a good idea I think. The fact that they're a single point behind us in the league shouldn't give us a superiority complex, every unpaid "analyst" on here knew we were going in with a non-existent midfield; were you expecting a reaction from Spurs? I sure as hell wasn't.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

9 minutes ago, MikeO said:

But if we set up to contain (in the early stages) a side with their tails up and confidence levels through the roof that would be quite a good idea I think. The fact that they're a single point behind us in the league shouldn't give us a superiority complex, every unpaid "analyst" on here knew we were going in with a non-existent midfield; were you expecting a reaction from Spurs? I sure as hell wasn't.

They had a good result against City but that game aside was their form really that great (we had good results against Leicester and The Shite) ?
 

[c1982]

Another poor performance but we still picked up a point - we’ve been very poor in every game since the restart in my opinion so the fact that we’ve picked up points while performing so poorly... well there’s a positive in there somewhere!!!

The reality is, without that balance in midfield, we won’t be able to control any game. It’s a mishmash of no other options currently and what little back-up we have - which may improve us e.g. Delph, Gbamin, Besic, Bolasie, Walcott; they’re either injured or unavailable or in Schneiderlin’s case, gone already. Gomes isn’t ready - probably mentally more than physically, Gylfi/Iwobi/Bernard just don’t fit, Davies isn’t good enough to ‘carry’ this midfield yet, Gordon has been the bright spark and hopefully this will put him in the frame for much more opportunities next season. We’re not going to replace all of these, so hopefully a couple of quality additions will bring out the best in others. I see a sound beating coming our way vs a settled/quality Wolves midfield - I think the only option will be long ball missing the midfield up to DCL and Richarlison or we’ll be completely outplayed again.

[Palfy]

1 minute ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

They had a good result against City but that game aside was their form really that great? 
 

They also beat Norwich 3-0 when others struggled, I posted that Southampton of the first 4 games I watched were the standout team, I new we would struggle against them they’ve had some very good performances on there return, and the absence of a functioning MF made it easier for them in the 1st half. 

[MikeO]

17 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

They had a good result against City but that game aside was their form really that great (we had good results against Leicester and The Shite) ?

We had a decent half against Leicester (35% possession and seven shots against fifteen for Leicester over the ninety though) and Liverpool were playing in their flip-flops first game back. Results were certainly good but the football was mostly dire.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

4 minutes ago, Palfy said:

They also beat Norwich 3-0 when others struggled, I posted that Southampton of the first 4 games I watched were the standout team, I new we would struggle against them they’ve had some very good performances on there return, and the absence of a functioning MF made it easier for them in the 1st half. 

Who struggled against Norwich ?

They’ve lost 6 on the trot and 9 out of the last 11

[Tonsta]

Well i expected a reaction from a pathetic performance against Spurs, it never came.

\when the team is that flat, and listless, and imo disinterested, who do you blame, the players or the management? 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

2 minutes ago, Tonsta said:

Well i expected a reaction from a pathetic performance against Spurs, it never came.

\when the team is that flat, and listless, and imo disinterested, who do you blame, the players or the management? 

Given that Carlo never signed any of those players and given that none of the last 4 managers have been able to get a tune out of them , my guess would be the players 

[Bailey]

13 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Who struggled against Norwich ?

They’ve lost 6 on the trot and 9 out of the last 11

We did! 

[Palfy]

12 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Who struggled against Norwich ?

They’ve lost 6 on the trot and 9 out of the last 11

We did Spurs Leicester Man Utd Brighton Watford the only teams in there last 7-8 games to really give them a mauling were Southampton and Arsenal, the others I mentioned either lost drew or were lucky to win by the odd goal, with Norwich unlucky not to get a win or a point from them games, or taking Utd to penalties with10 men, but my original point was that Southampton have played well since the season restarted and the City game wasn’t the only game that they have shown good form. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

23 minutes ago, MikeO said:

We had a decent half against Leicester (35% possession and seven shots against fifteen for Leicester over the ninety though) and Liverpool were playing in their flip-flops first game back. Results were certainly good but the football was mostly dire.

Fair enough but should we really be running scared of a team that’s record in the last 9 games is was won 4 lost 5 when 3 of the 4 wins were against sides in the bottom the bottom 4 ? 

[Bailey]

25 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Fair enough but should we really be running scared of a team that’s record in the last 9 games is was won 4 lost 5 when 3 of the 4 wins were against sides in the bottom the bottom 4 ? 

Its hard to argue that playing 442 the way we do is not extremely defensive to start with. Its not like we have gone into any game with clear intent to win it. 

You can put the numbers into whatever order you want to but its all about intent. Southampton's 442 was clearly much more aggressive and attacking than ours. They played much further up the pitch than we did. They pressed much higher up the pitch than we did. 

Ancellotti sent us out to play that way and he has done every game this restart. Whether its Liverpool or Norwich it hasn't mattered.

[London Blue]

23 minutes ago, Bailey said:

The second point is that despite relatively average players themselves, Romeu and Ward-Prowse completely outplayed our midfield. I am going to pick on Davies here, but when you look at JWP in comparison, JWP looked a far more complete player. He pretty much ran rings around Davies today. 

Davies is not a ball wining midfielder like JWP, we do miss a Gana type player who can use their energy to get the ball back.

I think we are suited to a 3 man midfield with an attacking 3 upfront. None of our current midfield are used to playing in a 442 and it shows.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Its hard to argue that playing 442 the way we do is not extremely defensive to start with. Its not like we have gone into any game with clear intent to win it. 
You can put the numbers into whatever order you want to but its all about intent. Southampton's 442 was clearly much more aggressive and attacking than ours. They played much further up the pitch than we did. They pressed much higher up the pitch than we did. 
Ancellotti sent us out to play that way and he has done every game this restart. Whether its Liverpool or Norwich it hasn't mattered.

I refer you back to my original comment , he has not signed any of these players, these same players that have failed miserably under four different managers, injuries have also severely limited his options, so he can only play with the hand he is dealt

Given all that I can’t actually believe I’m having to defend the manager in here , but hey ho that’s what forums are all about

[pete0]

Imagine picking on Davies when there was 5 players around him who all played  much worse than him. 

Keane Mina

Iwobi Davies Gomes/Sig

DCL

De Bruyne would have struggled in our side today. Seriously what more could he do with them round him playing as they were? 

[nyblue23]

Somebody made the Lee Mason wiki entry even better:

”Lee Stephen Mason (born 29 October 1971)^[2] is a sub-standard referee & gammon headed puketurnip , who should never Referee in the premier league, he once got bummed by his uncle as a child and again as a teenager, he is also a member of the Ku Klux Klan and a notorious Nazi and hitler supporter, Lee [1] is from Bolton, Greater Manchester.”

[Romey 1878]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53357841

VAR fucks with us again. The Villa one is the most unbelievable though, I have no idea how anyone sat there and watched that but didn't reverse the decision.

[Romey 1878]

To our game though

This was worse than Tottenham, because it's Southampton that outplayed us. And at home (even though a lot of the advantage is lost). We couldn't live with their movement and none of our players got anywhere near them. Our staticness in attack and defence is mindblowing - they do not move to close people down, they'll let players skip by them with a token dangled leg, and god help one of our defenders or the keeper when they have the ball because there is no one in front of them that bothers to try and get themselves into a bit of space to receive the ball comfortably. I honestly don't know which is the more effective gameplan - the opposition bypassing our midfield with quick passing, or us bypassing our own fucking midfield by launching it over them long ball style (what a beautiful goal that brought for us, and almost another in the second half). I cannot tell you how much my blood was boiling in the first half at Gomes and Davies - pair of fucking fairies coasting around the pitch, without a care in the world. I don't want to see either one against Wolves, even if Gomes is fit.

Second half we at least looked more organised and stopped Southampton bearing down on our goal every ten seconds and threatened at the other end.

Pickford made some really good saves but also made some look a lot harder than they needed to be.

Our defence has been solid but in the first half it was like the Keystone Cops and the only difference was Mina coming in. I think his presence makes the others nervous tbh and I can't blame them, because I think he's a liability and it's his athleticism that makes up for him being a pretty poor defender and I would get rid if we could get our money back on him.

The midfield is where our problems really lie though. Not going into the centre again but, like Bailey, I spent a big chunk of the first half not realising Iwoeful was playing. He's offering absolutely nothing. Well, except raising my blood pressure. Gordon is frustrating but he is actually putting himself about and he's trying things when he gets on the ball. He's playing a hell of a lot better than more senior players and taking more responsibility on the ball.

I'm separating Richarlison and DCL because it would do Richie a disservice to talk about them together. Richarlison was a warrior tbh - never stopped working, never stopped battling, and he took his goal brilliantly.

DCL was nothing but a wilting flower. I said in his thread that I've been disappointed with him since the restart and after yesterday alarm bells are going off. He looked so lethargic and unlike the player that fought for everything, and he was easily bullied. And that chance... I actually felt sorry for Davies becuase that was a lovely ball he played, probably the only decent thing he did all game, and I have no idea what DCL was doing or how he managed to fucking thigh it.

[Tonsta]

12 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Given that Carlo never signed any of those players and given that none of the last 4 managers have been able to get a tune out of them , my guess would be the players 

That would be my rational also, but he is above the dross we have employed recently.

Having said that time will tell, and im sure Carlo will get us back were we want to be, i just thought he would get through to them quicker. not to turn them into world beaters cos they are not.

But they are not a hard working unit either. 

Just another fed up blue at the moment, still unable to understand how people need motivating to play for us.

[Hafnia]

It's almost become standard for Everton fans to criticise home grown players for things they let expensively acquired internationals get away with.

Why? I honestly do not know.   

Let's call it as it is.... yes players don't set their price etc, but for me - if I knew a club paid £45m for me, was paying me in excess of 100k a week whilst I pocketed a cool £5m signing on fee which meant my family and future generations would be secure from that one contract I would be embarrassed about jumping out of tackles etc.

Osman, Barkley, Davies, DCL,  the list just grows. 

I can honestly say that at theirs worst - I have never seen any of them abandon their duties as a player the way I have with Schneiderlein, Mirrallas, Gylfi and yes Andre gorgeous Gomes.

They owed us fuck all financially, which is beside the point.  The club could sell them and pay for the running of finch farm for years....  whereas the aforementioned superstars stroll round picking up money whilst the club struggles to staywithin the confines of FFP due to the outlay on them.

These home grown players are the least of our worries but fans get incensed that they got played instead of supposed superstars who we should have.... THESE ARENT THE PLAYERS BLOCKING THE CLUB FROM GETTING TOP PLAYERS.   

Start holding the likes of Gomes and gylfi to account. Their talent points to a complete and utter embarrassing level of commitment to the team. They should do more.

It's fair to call out performances that are lacking.... DCL has indeed stopped putting his weight around. Davies needs more quality..... but the club shouldn't be relying on them because the superstars can't be arsed.  All things being well, they would be on the bench happily waiting to be involved where possible. 

 

[Hafnia]

Side note.... not sure whether Carlo has ever managed shiteness merged with piss poor attitude. He has now.

I know he's managed attitudes but they tended to be top players.. 

[Bailey]

13 hours ago, London Blue said:

Davies is not a ball wining midfielder like JWP, we do miss a Gana type player who can use their energy to get the ball back.

I think we are suited to a 3 man midfield with an attacking 3 upfront. None of our current midfield are used to playing in a 442 and it shows.

I wouldn't call JWP a ball winner by any stretch. Romeu maybe, but not JWP.

13 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

I refer you back to my original comment , he has not signed any of these players, these same players that have failed miserably under four different managers, injuries have also severely limited his options, so he can only play with the hand he is dealt

Given all that I can’t actually believe I’m having to defend the manager in here , but hey ho that’s what forums are all about

 

No I get that and I agree. In the same breath I would be a little disappointed if such a high level and experienced coach couldn't improve the players he has, but that aside I do completely agree. 

I was purely responding to the comment about the expectation of the side he picked.

[Palfy]

We can’t knock Ancelotti for the players at his disposal everyone was inherited, as he got a better tune out them since his arrival,  I would say damn right he has, but you are only going to go so far with shit regardless of how much it cost. 
I wouldn’t aim the poor performances at the feet of the home grown talent, but if they aren’t performing I will say so the same as I would any player. 
Whether it be Walsh or Brands if they have had the lion’s share on the say of the players brought here in the last 4-5 years then they need to take the majority of the responsibilities of how poor we are due to the players they have acquired. 
I hope to god that the next wave of signings are all Ancelotti’s and not Brands targets, this Director of football bullshit isn’t working for us, let’s get back to hiring a manager who knows the targets he wants and leave him to get on with it, and hopefully Ancelotti is the right man to do that. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

2 hours ago, Palfy said:

We can’t knock Ancelotti for the players at his disposal everyone was inherited, as he got a better tune out them since his arrival,  I would say damn right he has, but you are only going to go so far with shit regardless of how much it cost. 
I wouldn’t aim the poor performances at the feet of the home grown talent, but if they aren’t performing I will say so the same as I would any player. 
Whether it be Walsh or Brands if they have had the lion’s share on the say of the players brought here in the last 4-5 years then they need to take the majority of the responsibilities of how poor we are due to the players they have acquired. 
I hope to god that the next wave of signings are all Ancelotti’s and not Brands targets, this Director of football bullshit isn’t working for us, let’s get back to hiring a manager who knows the targets he wants and leave him to get on with it, and hopefully Ancelotti is the right man to do that. 

Iwobi aside I think Brands’ signings have been fairly successful 

[Palfy]

26 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Iwobi aside I think Brands’ signings have been fairly successful 

Richarlison yes but come because of Silva not Brands, Digne yes Gomes I’d like to make it but has given me massive doubts these last few games, Bernard won’t make it Delph what was that all about, Mina so so but can’t see him being first choice, Sidibe everyone’s favourite, there’s been a lot of money spent for very little return. Sorry forgot Kean. 

[Bailey]

6 hours ago, Palfy said:

We can’t knock Ancelotti for the players at his disposal everyone was inherited, as he got a better tune out them since his arrival,  I would say damn right he has, but you are only going to go so far with shit regardless of how much it cost. 
I wouldn’t aim the poor performances at the feet of the home grown talent, but if they aren’t performing I will say so the same as I would any player. 
Whether it be Walsh or Brands if they have had the lion’s share on the say of the players brought here in the last 4-5 years then they need to take the majority of the responsibilities of how poor we are due to the players they have acquired. 
I hope to god that the next wave of signings are all Ancelotti’s and not Brands targets, this Director of football bullshit isn’t working for us, let’s get back to hiring a manager who knows the targets he wants and leave him to get on with it, and hopefully Ancelotti is the right man to do that. 

Playing devils advocate here but who has he actually improved? I think the main players that will spring to mind such as DCL and Holgate but their improvement came under Ferguson.

I would argue Digne is back to his best, Keane has shown form and Richarlison is looking a more complete player but again he went up a notch under Ferguson as well.

The other thing with Ancelotti is has he ever worked without a DoF?

[Palfy]

6 minutes ago, Bailey said:

Playing devils advocate here but who has he actually improved? I think the main players that will spring to mind such as DCL and Holgate but their improvement came under Ferguson.

I would argue Digne is back to his best, Keane has shown form and Richarlison is looking a more complete player but again he went up a notch under Ferguson as well.

The other thing with Ancelotti is has he ever worked without a DoF?

I wasn’t referring to individuals as such but  as a collective he has improved team results and performances. 
To be honest I don’t know if he has ever managed without a DoF, but either way I hope he chooses the players he wants and not the players put forward by the DoF.