Frank Lampard

[Bailey]

On 14/11/2022 at 08:00, Matt said:

Of course you disagree. You think Rondon is an attacking outlet. I stopped ready after that, laughing too much. 

On 14/11/2022 at 09:13, Palfy said:

The reason they don't play anymore is because better players have taken their places, Most have had long term injuries but the biggest reason they don't improve is down to them, either they've reached the top of their abilities, or they lack the fight to regain their place. A manager can't be held responsible for the lack of ability of players he has inherited. Mykolenko played a lot of games under Lampard last season and has improved as time goes on, Pickford as improved since Benitez, not just in ability but in belief and has been rewarded with greater responsibility as a reward for his performances and improvement. Bailey you are very blinkered and only see what suits your narrative. Some laugh as above, I just despair in disbelief at some of the things you say. Never mind we wall more than likely all be here saying the same shit for many years to come God willing. 

Good managers improve players. Otherwise what is the point in changing managers? You might as well just buy new ones all the time and not work on what you have. 

Its an easy comparison but look at Newcastle. Howe has improved players who looked no good before he turned up. 

I am very open to listening to reasonable arguments but a lot of you on here are very blinkered to the reality of our situation. Its been the same for the last few managers. Its always wait until we get a striker, wait until x is fit, the manager didnt make the mistskes its the players etc etc. Wake up! 

On 14/11/2022 at 13:31, RuffRob said:

Just because you disagree, doesn't mean people comments are lazy - it a condescending comment.

Arteta at Arsenal - He went through a very rough patch as Arsenal manager with a period of pretty poor results and media and plenty of Arsenal fans saying he's not up to the job and should be sacked and replaced. Arsenal stood by him, didn't make a knee jerk reaction and bottle it. he was given a fair amount of time and transfer windows, and Arsenals patience has paid off, and as a club they have a better team for it.

I was not comparing Arteta and Lampard as managers or their footballing philosophies and abilities - I am purely making the observation that it takes more 15 games and a single transfer window to turn a club around and the club and the club should take a note out of Arsenals books and give a manager a proper chance and not crack every time there are a run of bad results or some unrest in the fanbase . .  

I think it is lazy, sorry if you find that condescending. 

I think they are two very different situations and there were very good reasons to stick with Arteta. Those reasons are much less clear with Lampard at the moment. That might change.

 

 

 

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

Good managers improve players. Otherwise what is the point in changing managers? You might as well just buy new ones all the time and not work on what you have. 

Its an easy comparison but look at Newcastle. Howe has improved players who looked no good before he turned up. 

I am very open to listening to reasonable arguments but a lot of you on here are very blinkered to the reality of our situation. Its been the same for the last few managers. Its always wait until we get a striker, wait until x is fit, the manager didnt make the mistskes its the players etc etc. Wake up! 

I think it is lazy, sorry if you find that condescending. 

I think they are two very different situations and there were very good reasons to stick with Arteta. Those reasons are much less clear with Lampard at the moment. That might change.

 

 

 

No you fucking wake up and look around and you might actually see what's happening, he has improved players what you can't grasp is that no matter who the manager is sometimes players don't fit and there is no improvement to be had. Do the figures yourself but Howe has brought in 8 new players for a cost of over 200 million, so if you are going to compare other managers to Lampard try and make it an even playing field, try Potter someone you have raved  about in the past, has he improved Chelsea has he fuck, and he has some of the best talent in the league at his disposal, has Ten Haag improved many of the Utd players no he hasn't. Then come the January transfer window where Lampard desperately needs 2 or 3 decent players in attacking areas, he won't get them because there is no funds, so the best he can expect is to get in some frees or some loans, and if he is lucky he might get a gem, but I very much doubt it we will end up with more shit in the form of your Maupay's and McNeil's. 

[RuffRob]

8 hours ago, Bailey said:

Good managers improve players. Otherwise what is the point in changing managers? You might as well just buy new ones all the time and not work on what you have. 

Its an easy comparison but look at Newcastle. Howe has improved players who looked no good before he turned up. 

I am very open to listening to reasonable arguments but a lot of you on here are very blinkered to the reality of our situation. Its been the same for the last few managers. Its always wait until we get a striker, wait until x is fit, the manager didnt make the mistskes its the players etc etc. Wake up! 

I think it is lazy, sorry if you find that condescending. 

I think they are two very different situations and there were very good reasons to stick with Arteta. Those reasons are much less clear with Lampard at the moment. That might change.

 

 

 

I actually think you are lazy and blinkered in the thinking that the best thing to do is simply keep changing managers when instant success and improvement don't happen to a team and club that in reality is board level, financial and playing staff turmoil,  give them all one transfer window each - then fuck them off if they have not managed to turn a sows ear in to a silk purse in 15 games. (I don't really count last season in any sort of 'rebuild' as it was simply a shit storm until the very last week.)

There is lot more going on at Newcastle than simply Eddie Howe and  Arteta at Arsenal. Both these clubs are in a significantly better place than Everton FC. Its lazy to say these clubs upturn is simply because of Howe's and Arteta's brilliance as coaches and managers.

Arteta was hanging on to his Arsenal job by a fine thread at one point (nobody was talking of him as some brilliant coach in those weeks).

Changing the manager every 12months or has been as big a problem at this club as anything.

First sentence you made above is good managers improve players - well Iwobi's improvement has been off the scale - from a get him out of the club player to a weekly MotM player. 

Your last sentence is 'that might change'  - the only way to to test this out is to give a manager a decent amount of time and two or three transfer windows. Lets just stick to a plan for once. 

There have been plenty of positives in what Lampard and Thelwell are doing as a team, the seem to get on and work well together in the 8months or so they have had together. We do need to remember they are currently working with very limited resources, and HAD to let our best and most influential player leave.   

I really don't see any need to desperately rip it up and starting yet again. because that is what changing the manager and his back room staff will be doing.

Wanting to see a project given a fair amount of time to work does no make a lot of us blinkered or lazy, we just have a different perspective. 

[Gwlad]

I'm glad to see the majority on here are not adopting the knee jerk reaction of, sack the manager when results have dipped. Frank still deserves time to get the players we need to evolve into a cohesive unit. I won't be baying for his head. 

[Wiggytop]

I hope that as we’re now 5 days after our last game, the thoughts of the board of replacing Frank will have disappeared. Both he and the squad are good enough to avoid relegation, changing manager yet again will only produce more turmoil.

[Bailey]

On 16/11/2022 at 02:48, Palfy said:

No you fucking wake up and look around and you might actually see what's happening, he has improved players what you can't grasp is that no matter who the manager is sometimes players don't fit and there is no improvement to be had. Do the figures yourself but Howe has brought in 8 new players for a cost of over 200 million, so if you are going to compare other managers to Lampard try and make it an even playing field, try Potter someone you have raved  about in the past, has he improved Chelsea has he fuck, and he has some of the best talent in the league at his disposal, has Ten Haag improved many of the Utd players no he hasn't. Then come the January transfer window where Lampard desperately needs 2 or 3 decent players in attacking areas, he won't get them because there is no funds, so the best he can expect is to get in some frees or some loans, and if he is lucky he might get a gem, but I very much doubt it we will end up with more shit in the form of your Maupay's and McNeil's. 

I disagree that he has and other than Iwobi, there is nothing tangible to back up you assertion that players have improved. I have never said I expect all players to improve, just that I expect to see more get better. If that isnt the case, we should have just stuck with Rafa and let him spend more money. 

The Newcastle team that beat Chelsea, include Schar, Burn, Longstaff, Willock, Almiron, Wood and Joelinton. Target and Murphy were two players to come off the bench. £70ml of that figure was on one player who has been injured. These players have all improved since Howe arrived. 

Potter has been there 5 minutes and arrived in the middle of the season. Its not clicking for them, but if he gets time, I suspect it will. He has managed 8 games in the league. 

Ten Haag has brought Rashford to a different level. Fernandes is starting to show glimpses of his old form more regularly. Shaw and McTominay are playing well. Dalot is as good as he has ever been. Though we haven't seen a lot, Martial has looked very dangerous. All of this, despite also only being there 5 mins and having to deal with that big baby Ronaldo!

We will have to see what support Lampard gets. I think he needs another window to prove himself but I am not sure he has earnt the right to spend lots either because the majority of signings havent caught fire yet.

On 16/11/2022 at 09:40, RuffRob said:

I actually think you are lazy and blinkered in the thinking that the best thing to do is simply keep changing managers when instant success and improvement don't happen to a team and club that in reality is board level, financial and playing staff turmoil,  give them all one transfer window each - then fuck them off if they have not managed to turn a sows ear in to a silk purse in 15 games. (I don't really count last season in any sort of 'rebuild' as it was simply a shit storm until the very last week.)

There is lot more going on at Newcastle than simply Eddie Howe and  Arteta at Arsenal. Both these clubs are in a significantly better place than Everton FC. Its lazy to say these clubs upturn is simply because of Howe's and Arteta's brilliance as coaches and managers.

Arteta was hanging on to his Arsenal job by a fine thread at one point (nobody was talking of him as some brilliant coach in those weeks).

Changing the manager every 12months or has been as big a problem at this club as anything.

First sentence you made above is good managers improve players - well Iwobi's improvement has been off the scale - from a get him out of the club player to a weekly MotM player. 

Your last sentence is 'that might change'  - the only way to to test this out is to give a manager a decent amount of time and two or three transfer windows. Lets just stick to a plan for once. 

There have been plenty of positives in what Lampard and Thelwell are doing as a team, the seem to get on and work well together in the 8months or so they have had together. We do need to remember they are currently working with very limited resources, and HAD to let our best and most influential player leave.   

I really don't see any need to desperately rip it up and starting yet again. because that is what changing the manager and his back room staff will be doing.

Wanting to see a project given a fair amount of time to work does no make a lot of us blinkered or lazy, we just have a different perspective. 

I haven't said Lampard needs to go but at the same time, if there isnt improvement, how long do you keep flogging a dead horse. 

For me it has to all be about performances. Sometimes you can do all the right things and lose games because that is football. I don't put this squad in that bracket at the moment and as has been proven recently, we have reverted back to what those underlying stats have been saying about our performances. It was exactly the same under Benitez and Carlo at the start. Results give you only snippet into how good a side is. Over time, performances will catch up with you.

Nobody was talking about Arteta at that time because thats what pundits do. You watch his team, you could see exactly what he was trying to achieve. It just wasn't quite there. To the Arsenal boards credit they backed him and they have reaped that reward. I dont see any of that at the moment. I dont see any plan of how we attack and break teams down. We have no idea what to do in possession and as soon as our defence gets exposed it starts to crumble. That has to be a red warning light to everyone. 

I have also always said about Iwobi being the one player, albeit in earlier posts so you may have missed it.

I am not saying your persective is blinkered or lazy, just the Arteta comparison. I do largely agree with your last points but you can't just blindly back someone without seeing real progress. I like Lampard, I want him to be a successful manager of Everton Football Club but there has to be improvement and it needs to be soon.

[StevO]

5 hours ago, Bailey said:

I disagree that he has and other than Iwobi, there is nothing tangible to back up you assertion that players have improved. I have never said I expect all players to improve, just that I expect to see more get better. If that isnt the case, we should have just stuck with Rafa and let him spend more money. 

The Newcastle team that beat Chelsea, include Schar, Burn, Longstaff, Willock, Almiron, Wood and Joelinton. Target and Murphy were two players to come off the bench. £70ml of that figure was on one player who has been injured. These players have all improved since Howe arrived. 

 

Two points and then I realised the post was bloody massive and got bored. 
 

Frank has improved Iwobi. 
Rafa improved nobody, but made quite a few players lose all sign of confidence. 
 

Dodnt Howe bring in Burn, Wood and Target? 
Those players listed; did they improve or were they hampered by the negative atmosphere around their club under Bruce and Ashley? 

[Btay]

I think the biggest difference between us & Newcastle is how they have spent their money after their initial take over. We were so incredibly naive in nearly every transfer we made with no actual plan. We signed 4 attacking midfielders in 1 window ffs. Newcastle added an absolute superstar in Bruno and complimented it with competent premier league players - everyone of our fans would have turned their nose up at Chris Wood or Dan Burn signing when we first got our money but sometimes it’s what you need.

We simply have to survive this season & allow these young players we have time to grow in to the players they can be, whilst adding to the team around them. It’s going to be tight this year but I still feel safer now than I did last year.

[Gwlad]

Newcastle have money. 

[Btay]

21 hours ago, Gwlad all over said:

Newcastle have money. 

Money doesn’t mean success. If we haven’t learnt that after the last few years - we are truly fucked

[Bailey]

On 17/11/2022 at 21:28, StevO said:

Two points and then I realised the post was bloody massive and got bored. 
 

Frank has improved Iwobi. 
Rafa improved nobody, but made quite a few players lose all sign of confidence. 
 

Dodnt Howe bring in Burn, Wood and Target? 
Those players listed; did they improve or were they hampered by the negative atmosphere around their club under Bruce and Ashley? 

Sorry, I can't help it, I get carried away!  

I agree about Iwobi as I have always said.

I think Rafa improved Pickford (which has been maintained under Lampard) and he did improve Doucoure too. Gray played his best football that I have ever seen under Rafa too. There wasn't much else to shout about though and he destroyed plenty of others!

He did, but the point was they are crap players that I can't imagine many of us would have wanted at the time.

On that last point does it matter? The point is, when a manager gets sacked its because the players have underperfomed (if it isn't then just sign more players). If those players don't improve under a new manager, they either shouldn't have sacked the last one or they shouldn't have hired the new one. FWIW I think a lot of players are playing their best ever football under Howe at Newcastle at the moment. 

[Btay]

Not a dig at Frank here but travelled to Sydney to watch the Celtic game yesterday, disappointed is an understatement.

It’s a friendly, it was a hot day & I was never expecting a premier league quality game but it hurt to watch. There’s a lot of work to do over the 6 weeks.

[Bailey]

I have watched the highlights and it looked like we caused them a lot of problems on the break, albeit without too many clear sights on goal. 

Its a bit criminal that at times we had them on the counter with numbers in our favour against sub-standard defenders and we didn't even test the keeper. Clearly bad decision making by the players but it gave me the impression it hasn't been worked on in training as you can't mess up those opportunties at this level. 

It was also worrying that despite playing what appears to be very defensive football that we conceded 3 guilt edged opportunities. 

Whilst it appeared quite even in the highlights, the reviews of the game from both sets of fans was that we were very poor and were completely outplayed by Celtic. Is that what you are referring to @Btay or was it more even?

As for the Celtic boss, I would be a little concerned that whilst they can clearly play some nice football, they can also be cut open by some very basic counter attacks. You can't get away with that in the Premier League as even Pep found out in his first season. Managing a better group of players would help though as some of their defending was really naive! 

[Billwelshblue]

I like Frank, he gets us is a good communicator and galvanized us last season but there is no doubt he should be doing better but managing Everton isn't easy and sacking seven managers in as many years isn't progressing us. On one hand, he should be getting more out of them and tactically and with his in-game management, I have questions about him at times, but appreciate he is still a young manager learning himself. On the other hand, he's only had ten months, one transfer window, we are trying to rebuild a mess of a squad and I blame the squad more than him. Having to sell Richy and DCL never being available added to inconsistent wingers and Maupay who doesn't fit the way we play makes it difficult to get attacking patterns going. We have stripped away a lot of the creativity from the team in the last few seasons James, Digne, Sig, Richy even Bernard has gone that's most of our assists and goals. We have to credit him for a more solid back line, in general and some good midfield additions, now it's his job to find the balance, a double pivot with Iwobi ahead works best for me. Also, it's an unusual season we are only a third of a way through so it's hard to fully judge. So I think we give him January to get some attacking reinforcements if results and performances are still poor yes, then its time to consider his position because we cannot afford to go down. And if it's a rebuild you need to know what you are building towards a style of play or something, the fact we see no attacking patterns of play after this long doesn't speak well to him or his coaching team. But constantly churning managers is partly why we always end up in this mess, (it lets the wasters in the squad off the hook we need a manager to complete a turnover of the squad). Along with the financial and governance mismanagement from the board and owner..  So if you think sacking him will instantly solve our issues then I have bad news for you. Our issues are deeper than whoever the manager is...

[Btay]

3 hours ago, Bailey said:

I have watched the highlights and it looked like we caused them a lot of problems on the break, albeit without too many clear sights on goal. 

Its a bit criminal that at times we had them on the counter with numbers in our favour against sub-standard defenders and we didn't even test the keeper. Clearly bad decision making by the players but it gave me the impression it hasn't been worked on in training as you can't mess up those opportunties at this level. 

It was also worrying that despite playing what appears to be very defensive football that we conceded 3 guilt edged opportunities. 

Whilst it appeared quite even in the highlights, the reviews of the game from both sets of fans was that we were very poor and were completely outplayed by Celtic. Is that what you are referring to @Btay or was it more even?

As for the Celtic boss, I would be a little concerned that whilst they can clearly play some nice football, they can also be cut open by some very basic counter attacks. You can't get away with that in the Premier League as even Pep found out in his first season. Managing a better group of players would help though as some of their defending was really naive! 

We played on the backfoot the whole game mate & could barely string a few passes together. Myko got forward a lot more than I expected & put a good ball in behind. Patterson is a gutsy player but you’d expect that against Celtic from him. Just felt like we soaked up pressure on our own 18 yard line, played 2 passes and then one of our CB’s chipped a ball to Maupay and it came back at us.

[StevO]

5 hours ago, Btay said:

We played on the backfoot the whole game mate & could barely string a few passes together. Myko got forward a lot more than I expected & put a good ball in behind. Patterson is a gutsy player but you’d expect that against Celtic from him. Just felt like we soaked up pressure on our own 18 yard line, played 2 passes and then one of our CB’s chipped a ball to Maupay and it came back at us.

It’s how we’ve played all season. It’s not pretty. It’s been very effective in the games we managed to win, but not so much in many others. 

[Billwelshblue]

15 hours ago, Btay said:

We played on the backfoot the whole game mate & could barely string a few passes together. Myko got forward a lot more than I expected & put a good ball in behind. Patterson is a gutsy player but you’d expect that against Celtic from him. Just felt like we soaked up pressure on our own 18 yard line, played 2 passes and then one of our CB’s chipped a ball to Maupay and it came back at us.

Tbf we had two fit midfielders so probably all we could do. Agree I would actually like to see a style of play and attacking patterns though.

[Billwelshblue]

10 hours ago, StevO said:

It’s how we’ve played all season. It’s not pretty. It’s been very effective in the games we managed to win, but not so much in many others. 

He can't get the balance right, we are ultra defensive or playing a 433 where Gana is left on his own while the other two press and the front three offer little he needs to change it up fast or I fear he will be sacked too...

[RuffRob]

The first half of this season was always going to be a bit of a learning curve - given the early start to the season and lateness of the arrivals it is going to take a bit of time getting any sort of team flowing. We also have to remember the rawness of Onana - both age and experience wise. He's been Lampard's 'big' purchase and he is going to be a little bit inconsistent given where he is in career. We all want top young talent, but we need patience all around. You can see Lampard has been testing him out in slightly different roles the midfield - with mixed results, but things have to be tried and sometime it take more than 90mins before things work properly. 

We need to give Frank's current squad far more time to develop (than other managers before him have had). Buying young Onana's, Garner's and McNeil's (to join the Patterson's, Mykolenko's and Gordons) comes with slightly different immediate expectations than bringing in the James's, Allan's, Gomes's, Gylfi's, Walcott's, Mina's and Digne's of this world.  

I think we pretty much all champion bringing in young players with lots of potential, but we can't jump up and down after a dozen games or so. This is a very new squad of player if you look at the past 12-18months. 

 

[Gwlad]

4 hours ago, RuffRob said:

The first half of this season was always going to be a bit of a learning curve - given the early start to the season and lateness of the arrivals it is going to take a bit of time getting any sort of team flowing. We also have to remember the rawness of Onana - both age and experience wise. He's been Lampard's 'big' purchase and he is going to be a little bit inconsistent given where he is in career. We all want top young talent, but we need patience all around. You can see Lampard has been testing him out in slightly different roles the midfield - with mixed results, but things have to be tried and sometime it take more than 90mins before things work properly. 

We need to give Frank's current squad far more time to develop (than other managers before him have had). Buying young Onana's, Garner's and McNeil's (to join the Patterson's, Mykolenko's and Gordons) comes with slightly different immediate expectations than bringing in the James's, Allan's, Gomes's, Gylfi's, Walcott's, Mina's and Digne's of this world.  

I think we pretty much all champion bringing in young players with lots of potential, but we can't jump up and down after a dozen games or so. This is a very new squad of player if you look at the past 12-18months. 

 

Soon passed their sell by date.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

2 hours ago, Gwlad all over said:

Soon passed their sell by date.

Don’t think any of them had a pass in them to be honest 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/frank-lampard-exclusive-everton-plan-25610373

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/everton-january-transfer-shortlist-lampard-25614434

Not sure I share his view about there being any positives to take from the Leicester game and I still lay the blame for the Bournemouth debacles firmly at his door due to the ridiculous team selection in the first game

He heaped this pressure on us and instantly stamped out any confidence or morale the players may have had

I just hope that they’ve managed to rebuild it in Australia

[StevO]

Though Bournemouth was a shite couple of games, I really have no issue with the team he put out in the cup. I don’t recall many of our managers, or other premier league managers, going full strength right through the competition. 

The second game, we were just as shit as the full strength team the week before. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

52 minutes ago, StevO said:

Though Bournemouth was a shite couple of games, I really have no issue with the team he put out in the cup. I don’t recall many of our managers, or other premier league managers, going full strength right through the competition. 

The second game, we were just as shit as the full strength team the week before. 

I would have no issue with him making  changes but there is a huge difference between throwing in a few fringe players and changing the entire XI

Even worse when he also changed the formation and most of the defence that night had hardly kicked a ball all season.
Throwing XI players who haven’t played together all season in an unfamiliar formation was only ever going to end one way. It was a complete capitulation that only served to put extra pressure on us and give them a much needed confidence boost before the league game

Yes it was practically two different teams for the league game but their crowd was buoyed by the fact they had just twatted us a few days earlier , it also took the pressure off their players who had gone 4 defeats on the trot before playing us,  as soon as they went in front our heads dropped and there tails were up because everyone knew it was going to be the same outcome

That last week before the World Cup break has put an entirely different complexion on the season and it was so avoidable

 

 

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

That last week before the World Cup break has put an entirely different complexion on the season and it was so avoidable

 

How was it avoidable, you have no evidence to prove that if we played a full strength team in the cup the outcome in both games wouldn't have been the same, how about this for an excuse instead of Lampard letting the team and players down, it could be better argued that team and players let the manager down. 

[Tonsta]

7 minutes ago, Palfy said:

How was it avoidable, you have no evidence to prove that if we played a full strength team in the cup the outcome in both games wouldn't have been the same, how about this for an excuse instead of Lampard letting the team and players down, it could be better argued that team and players let the manager down. 

The results proved it was a bad decision, but you are 100% right the players let the manager down.

[Hafnia]

Players had been knocking on lampards door to ask for game time, they got game time and stunk the gaff out.  Hopefully these will be exited in January/not get contracts renewed. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

4 hours ago, Palfy said:

How was it avoidable, you have no evidence to prove that if we played a full strength team in the cup the outcome in both games wouldn't have been the same, how about this for an excuse instead of Lampard letting the team and players down, it could be better argued that team and players let the manager down. 

It’s true that we will never know what the results would have been had we tried to win the first game but  the score lines are conclusive proof that it backfired spectacularly

Its also true that the players let themselves down but Frank setting them up for defeat definitely did not help matters

[Bailey]

I just look at both games and think the side werent very well prepared for either. Making that many chages isn't a recipe for success but Bournemouth did a similar thing and spanked us.

The whole first team squad and management need to take that one on the chin.