Romey 1878 Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Normally, I would probably agree with you, but Martinez has a history with 3-man back-lines. It's not a particularly good one judging by Wigan's record and the few occasions he's tried it here. Maybe it'd be good after some work on it but it scares me a bit tbh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Switching to a 3 at the back seems a bit on the cowardly side to me, i.e. Martinez can't make the big decision on which one to plonk on the bench so plays them all. I fhik he tried it a couple of times at Goodison last year, and it backfired or we looked really unorganised. I prefer 2 centre halves. Jags and Distin for me for this coming seAson but Stones to step in and give Distin a rest and get plenty of game time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Drop Jagielka. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Jagielka is poor with the ball at his feet. He was also shocking before he got injured. Stones place is deserved and Martinez should have balls to drop the captain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zequist Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 It's not the formation that matters, so much as the tactics that you play out of that formation. I don't care so much if RM wants to use three center backs, but I would want to know how he intends to use them to gain/retain possession and generate attacks. The Dutch and the Costa Ricans both played 3-man back lines with two wing backs for the majority of the World Cup (and you can bet Roberto was watching both teams closely and taking notes), but they used them in different ways. The Costa Rican back three focused more on springing offside traps, and they were ridiculously good at that, while the Dutch back three were focused more on winning the ball and launching counterattacks. The key to any solid back line, though, is having guys who are used to playing together and communicating with each other and knowing where to go. The TV commentators talked about that over and over again with the Costa Rican defenders and how they were all perfectly in sync with the timing of their step-ups. I don't doubt we could play a three-man back line much more effectively than last year, especially if it's worked on from the start of training camp, but there would have to be a full-on commitment to it, not just some half-assed dabbling. If you're shuffling guys on and off the back line and they're constantly changing positions and combinations and shuffling formations around, then your defense is going to have problems no matter if you have two, three, or six center backs on the field. All it takes to bust a defense wide open is that one back who's too slow to step up on the last attacker or gets pulled out of position without a teammate ready to cover for him. MikeO, Sibdane, chicagoblue and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Jagielka is poor with the ball at his feet. He was also shocking before he got injured. Stones place is deserved and Martinez should have balls to drop the captain. He's his captain though so he's not going to is he. I think Jagielka has done enough over the past few seasons to warrant a starting place at the beginning of the season but if he's garbage and not doing it, captain or not he should be dropped. I agree he wasn't in the best form of his life before he got injured and I think that has to do with he isn't comfortable with the ball at his feet but we do seem a lot more organised when he's in the team. That being said, I absolutely hate the way we pass it about like we do at the back my heart is in my mouth constantly with it. I also think teams will be much more tuned to how we play this season and we wont get away with it as much as we have. You could see it towards the end of last season, teams were pressing us really high up the pitch, harrying us and not letting us settle on the ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 There is absolutely no reason why we should go three at the back. As mentioned above the times we tried it we looked dis-jointed. He needs to make a decision and personally I think he'll drop Stones. For me he shouldn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 He's his captain though so he's not going to is he. I think Jagielka has done enough over the past few seasons to warrant a starting place at the beginning of the season but if he's garbage and not doing it, captain or not he should be dropped. I agree he wasn't in the best form of his life before he got injured and I think that has to do with he isn't comfortable with the ball at his feet but we do seem a lot more organised when he's in the team. That being said, I absolutely hate the way we pass it about like we do at the back my heart is in my mouth constantly with it. I also think teams will be much more tuned to how we play this season and we wont get away with it as much as we have. You could see it towards the end of last season, teams were pressing us really high up the pitch, harrying us and not letting us settle on the ball. Jagielka is one if those defenders who's better than average but would never be in the World Class bracket. Stones has showed potential to eventually become World Class. He never put a foot wrong all season. I'm also sure Stones was involved in the majority of that unbeaten run towards the end of the season. Jagielka was shocking at times before he got the injury. Stones is more suited to Martinez passing style, I think Martinez knows this but Jagielka is a big part of the dressing room. For that reason I think Martonez will bottle it. Distin has to play no matter what - PACE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Distin has to play no matter what - PACE He glides across the pitch doesn't he. 5 million we paid for him , what an absolute steal. As I said, Jags is his captain and he has sway in the dressing room and that alone gives him a starting berth. Stones will get his chance, he's perfect for Martinez style of play of that I have no doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted July 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 There is absolutely no reason why we should go three at the back. As mentioned above the times we tried it we looked dis-jointed. He needs to make a decision and personally I think he'll drop Stones. For me he shouldn't. So who do you drop from the midfield? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 So who do you drop from the midfield? What? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted July 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Personally I think Jags is comfortably the best defender at the club and is undiutably a big influence in the dressing room but Im sure Roberto will pick the side on merit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted July 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 What? Lol sorry I misread your post. I thought you were saying there was no reason not to play 3 at the back! MC11 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 No problem, I was confused then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibdane Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 It's not a particularly good one judging by Wigan's record and the few occasions he's tried it here. Maybe it'd be good after some work on it but it scares me a bit tbh! Agreed, it would be a scary transition. I don't think Martinez will drop Jags, but I also wouldn't be surprised to see him include Stones in a 3-man line, mainly because he's done it before. Jags better start strong in either situation really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 I wouldn't mind seeing 3 at the back with Oviedo and Coleman as attacking wing backs, with Baines in centre midfield. Spot on. This is exciting. markjazzbassist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Spot on. This is exciting. Baines to centre midfield really is amusing. Sometimes I think Martinez does talk a bit of shite. But I willing to be proved wrong. I can not for the life of me see Baines playing in central midfield. People say Lahm done it. Lahm is in a whole different league than Baines in terms of ball possession! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 It's not a particularly good one judging by Wigan's record and the few occasions he's tried it here. Maybe it'd be good after some work on it but it scares me a bit tbh! They were much better at the back when he played 3 CB's! It was when they played with only 2 CB's or had their FB's playing CB because of the injuries that they suffered. The season before when they went on their late surge of wins was due to them changing to 5 at the back. We actually played with 3 CB's quite effectively on occasions at the beginning of last season but on a couple of times at the end of last season it did back fire, but more down to individual performance than the defensive system IMO. I'm also not really a fan of switching to it mid game, much like I didnt under Moyes. I think its easier to move from 5 at the back to 4 at the back rather than the other way around mid game. Personally I think Jags and Distin should start the season and I also think they are both far more suited to 4 at the back than 5. Stones is so versatile that he could play anywhere and in any formation/set up but I just dont think the other two are as well suited by it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 I'm going to throw this out there. We will not play three at the back in any of the first three games this season (not friendlies). Firstly. If it isn't broke, don't fix it. Roberto will try to improve on last seasons 4231, we were so successful because Barry and McCarthy covered the full backs, giving them and the attacking players more freedom. Secondly. If he played three at the back he would need to bring in more defenders. We currently have four centre halfs (none of the kids, or Duffy, seem upto it yet) if Jags Stones and Distin all play that only leaves Alcaraz as cover, and he's hardly reliable. If we play four at the back we have cover in each position without the immediate need to strengthen. I expect 4231, or 433 depending how you see it, to continue this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Baines to centre midfield really is amusing. Sometimes I think Martinez does talk a bit of shite. But I willing to be proved wrong. I can not for the life of me see Baines playing in central midfield. People say Lahm done it. Lahm is in a whole different league than Baines in terms of ball possession! Totally agree, baines is not and never will be a central midfielder. If Martinez puts him there and proves me wrong then I'll be the first to hold my hands up but he is just not the type of player who could switch to central midfield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thoward18 Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 I don't think it's going to matter now that we have a condensed schedule with Europe in the mix. I imagine that Jagielka and Distin will officially be "starters" but, especially with Distin being old and Jagielka being an injury risk, Martinez is going to be rotating often, I would think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 I don't think it's going to matter now that we have a condensed schedule with Europe in the mix. I imagine that Jagielka and Distin will officially be "starters" but, especially with Distin being old and Jagielka being an injury risk, Martinez is going to be rotating often, I would think. Jagielka is not an injury risk. He had an injury last season but before that he was virtually an ever present . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeQuince Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Jagielka is not an injury risk. He had an injury last season but before that he was virtually an ever present . I'm not so sure. Wasn't it the season prior where he was playing with a broken toe and getting pre-game injections? Maybe I'm wrong. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 I'm not so sure. Wasn't it the season prior where he was playing with a broken toe and getting pre-game injections? Maybe I'm wrong. Mate Jagielka is not injury prone. Whether anyone on here likes him or not, one thing he isn 't is made of glass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 He has been out 6 times in the last 4 seasons. Some lengthy others short. With him getting older and the type of injuries he's had I'd say he was a slight risk. Sibdane and Matt 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 No chance. That ms just because you want him out and Stones in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 I'm not so sure. Wasn't it the season prior where he was playing with a broken toe and getting pre-game injections? Maybe I'm wrong. You'd be surprised how many players play with cortisone injections for injuries. It's no wonder they are so crocked by the time they retire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeQuince Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Mate Jagielka is not injury prone. Whether anyone on here likes him or not, one thing he isn 't is made of glass. Ah, wasn't saying he WAS injury prone. Just saying that he's had a few lengthy spells with things. He plays through them though, usually (probably not a great idea, but at least he wants to earn his paycheck). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Ah, wasn't saying he WAS injury prone. Just saying that he's had a few lengthy spells with things. He plays through them though, usually (probably not a great idea, but at least he wants to earn his paycheck). Ah with you now. Sorry mate misunderstood whst you mesnt so apologies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 In Jags time at Everton he's averaged 29 games a season, considering we play upto 50, he missed a bit. And he's been first choice for most of that. Maybe he's more prone to injuries than we thought? Ok, he doesn't pick up little knocks, well he might but plays through them, but when he gets injured he gets decent time out. Cruiciate knee ligament being the biggest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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