Relegation Battle!

[Sherpa]

 

The win v Wimbledon was a low point?

 

I just watched it on ceefax and bounced off the ceiling like a lunatic; was as good a day as any cup win/title. Don't see how it can be a low point.

 

I've seen far less fight and passion over the years than today; in fact I've seen total surrender before a ball was kicked (Stoke came close to that sadly).

The season was the low point, not the Wimbledon game which was memorable for many reasons, which you are now romanticising about ?. Edited March 6, 2015 by Sherpa

[Mirallas]

[Sherpa]

Let's get this straight we have the best squad/ team since the 80's glory days.

Yes we have been down there struggling before but those teams where nowhere near as talented as this one, and this is why I believe it is one of the worst seasons in my memory... No rose tinted glasses, romanticism needed.

[Elston Gunnn]

Is Barry really suspended for 3?

 

But, our most likely salvation isn't that route, but the utterly atrocious teams below us. QPR, Burnley and Leicester are even worse than us.

 

It won't be glorious, entertaining or even respectable but I'd wager we'll be in the Premier League come August.

I think Barry's out only for 2, having accumulated 10 YCs. More's the pity.

 

And your other points here seem just right to me: salvation by backing in, by being not as incompetent as others. Which will be, as you describe it, something other than glorious, entertaining, and respectable. More than pitiful.

 

We hope to see, but have no reason to expect, a drastic turn toward inspired play. If our boys have a remarkably, miraculously successful final 10 matches and a deep run in Europe, we'll be re-energized and -- some of us -- enthusiastic all summer. If we sneak in at 17th on 36 points, we'll be angry -- all of us -- all summer. If ....... well, I've no idea, except that pitiful and angry wouldn't even come close to describing it.

[Romey 1878]

Whatever happens I think our team is going to look very different next season in terms of what players are here. There will be a major rebuilding going on. I'm not entirely sure I trust Martinez with that if I'm honest.

[Lowensda]

Whatever happens I think our team is going to look very different next season in terms of what players are here. There will be a major rebuilding going on. I'm not entirely sure I trust Martinez with that if I'm honest.

 

This.

 

Don't think the players he's spent out on or bought in have been particularly great.

 

 

Good

McCarthy - Great player

Besic - Potential is huge

 

Steady

Lukaku - Big money who is so hit and miss, it's scary.

Joel - Not been used properly but looked promising after a shakey start.

 

Poor

Barry - Brilliant for 1 season, terrible this.

Kone - Can do a job, but is not the answer.

McGeady - Dreadful

Lennon - Not seen that much

Alcaraz - Steady, when not injured

[Hafnia]

The team spirit has been completely derailed. That is usually down to negative behaviours, seeds of doubt have been planted. Martinez has not been strong enough.

 

Martinez's style relies on "No fear" - but the players have lost that swagger and belief.

[MC11]

The way I see it.

 

We'll be doing a Villa over the next few seasons if Martinez is left long enough to let the place rot

[Paddock]

The whole point is even if he does keep us up, is all this still acceptable?

 

Forget Moyes second season he had a team that was poor and flirting with relegation for years and wasn't given 30 odd million to spend on players that season either.

 

We will be in exactly the same boat with Martinez at the helm next season. I just don't get where this him being this fantastic manager comes from and I never have.

[Elston Gunnn]

I just don't get where this him being this fantastic manager comes from and I never have.

It's a fair question. I have an answer -- mine --which isn't necessarily the answer. I'm not trying to persuade you or anyone else that he came to Everton with a fantastic record that promised certain future success. Only trying to explain why I think people thought him so promising.

 

As an American -- a burden on this subject -- my intro to RM was his commentary during the 2010 WC. He was so refreshingly interesting compared to many other so-called experts that I, and others, were very impressed with his knowledge of the intricacies of the game, leagues, teams, players. You may find this difficult to believe, but he did not speak in cliches. (Amazing, I know.). He was unfailingly upbeat, to be sure, but for a commentator, a sunny disposition seemed preferable to the snarky boorishness of others. He was, and is, likable. He explained the game, discussed teams' and players' strengths and weaknesses, and not incidentally seemed to have impressed his fellow commentators.

 

When rumors began that Moyes might be next at MU, and when Moyes declined to sign a new contract, I told the lifelong Everton fan who introduced me to the club that I hoped Martinez would be considered. I knew nothing of his playing or coaching career, save that at the time of his appointment he had Won the FA Cup with Wigan, having in the process embarrassed Everton (3 goals in 3 minutes). Did I and others ignore the disconcerting fact that Wigan went down? Apparently so, a mere oddity that didn't fit the developing narrative.

 

Now maybe some folks saw major flaws in his approach during his first season at Goodison, but surely very few, given a record number of points and a near-miss at a CL spot. The developing narrative certainly wasn't slowed last season. Quite the contrary, it exploded. His always-positive press conferences, then, didn't irritate nearly as many people as now. Easily forgiven, even assuming one were bold enough to think he needed forgiving. He was, or seemed, gold.

 

To repeat: the above isn't intended to persuade you that things are fine, just trust Roberto, blah blah. It is simply my answer to your good question. I've no idea what the rest of this season, this summer, next season will look like. I can't explain this season's EPL disaster; I do not discount the obvious possibility that the explanation is down to RM and no one else.

[Hafnia]

The whole point is even if he does keep us up, is all this still acceptable?

 

Forget Moyes second season he had a team that was poor and flirting with relegation for years and wasn't given 30 odd million to spend on players that season either.

 

We will be in exactly the same boat with Martinez at the helm next season. I just don't get where this him being this fantastic manager comes from and I never have.

 

Interesting - some people will say that Martinez has wasted money in the transfer market. But ask them if Lukaku was a waste of money and they will say "NO".

 

The reality is that Lukaku was Martinez's budget for last summer. If Martinez has wasted £28m then its fair to say that Lukaku is a waste of money.

[Matt]

 

I think hindsight and the romanticism of our heroic escapes is playing tricks with your memory.

 

We've been far worse than we are today; devoid of fight and without talent or leadership. It's a worrying time for sure but we have the tools to get out of it.

We sure do, but thats not the issue. Its the person in charge to motivate to get the tools to perform, and thats a big difference.

[veedublin]

We sure do, but thats not the issue. Its the person in charge to motivate to get the tools to perform, and thats a big difference.

 

Agree with you, but these are men, not high-school or college boys. I would think they're mature enough to find motivation amongst themselves. But, if they don't have belief in the game plan, I can see how they can lose confidence individually.

 

So, maybe it's more confidence than motivation.

 

I play music, and I know that if I'm not completely confident in a situation, I'm gonna have a bad time. Regardless of how "motivated" I am.

[Paddock]

It's a fair question. I have an answer -- mine --which isn't necessarily the answer. I'm not trying to persuade you or anyone else that he came to Everton with a fantastic record that promised certain future success. Only trying to explain why I think people thought him so promising.

 

As an American -- a burden on this subject -- my intro to RM was his commentary during the 2010 WC. He was so refreshingly interesting compared to many other so-called experts that I, and others, were very impressed with his knowledge of the intricacies of the game, leagues, teams, players. You may find this difficult to believe, but he did not speak in cliches. (Amazing, I know.). He was unfailingly upbeat, to be sure, but for a commentator, a sunny disposition seemed preferable to the snarky boorishness of others. He was, and is, likable. He explained the game, discussed teams' and players' strengths and weaknesses, and not incidentally seemed to have impressed his fellow commentators.

 

When rumors began that Moyes might be next at MU, and when Moyes declined to sign a new contract, I told the lifelong Everton fan who introduced me to the club that I hoped Martinez would be considered. I knew nothing of his playing or coaching career, save that at the time of his appointment he had Won the FA Cup with Wigan, having in the process embarrassed Everton (3 goals in 3 minutes). Did I and others ignore the disconcerting fact that Wigan went down? Apparently so, a mere oddity that didn't fit the developing narrative.

 

Now maybe some folks saw major flaws in his approach during his first season at Goodison, but surely very few, given a record number of points and a near-miss at a CL spot. The developing narrative certainly wasn't slowed last season. Quite the contrary, it exploded. His always-positive press conferences, then, didn't irritate nearly as many people as now. Easily forgiven, even assuming one were bold enough to think he needed forgiving. He was, or seemed, gold.

 

To repeat: the above isn't intended to persuade you that things are fine, just trust Roberto, blah blah. It is simply my answer to your good question. I've no idea what the rest of this season, this summer, next season will look like. I can't explain this season's EPL disaster; I do not discount the obvious possibility that the explanation is down to RM and no one else.

I know you're not trying to persuade me Elston mate, and just because you're American or have never been to Goodison etc etc doesn't mean your points are moot or opinions aren't valid. Fact is you make some decent points in that post and you have your opinions and have every right to voice them.

 

I think Martinez has lost the dressing room and more importantly I think his players have lost their belief in HIM and there lies the crux of the problem. Players aren't stupid, they know the score a lot better than us fans do. There's Lukaku stating that they had to ask him could we play more direct, their body language speaks absolute volumes to me, they look tired, fed up, lost, aimless like a well tuned sports car with the engine missing.

 

There's just nothing thrre. No confidence, no self belief, no fight, no drive, no passion, no commitment no nothing. Just a bunch of very good footballers who seem to all of a sudden forgotten how to play football.

 

I never wanted Martinez, even after last season I think it's perfectly onvious what my stance was on him from the day I joined this board and unfortunately, every worry I had about him is starting to come true. It's like a nightmare getting more and more real every day and everytime it gets worse I think "I fucking knew this was going to happen, I just fucking knew it"

 

We are in real danger of going down matey, trust me on that.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Paddock

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/exclusive-graeme-jones-insists-everton-8790872

[Paddock]

Funny he says that as Martinez said in an interview earlier in the season he didn't think it affected us.

 

Plenty of cohesion between the two there obviously ?

[Mirallas]

 

Interesting - some people will say that Martinez has wasted money in the transfer market. But ask them if Lukaku was a waste of money and they will say "NO".

 

The reality is that Lukaku was Martinez's budget for last summer. If Martinez has wasted £28m then its fair to say that Lukaku is a waste of money.

 

TBF, I don't think money is to blame for our position in the league. I think it's management; dealing with poor form, building a team, killer mentality, a winner mindset... You need someone charismatic to change those things. Martinez doesn't exactly have the charisma that some others have. I think he's brilliant though, in terms of transfer policy for instance, but he's hardly a Mourinho on the training pitch.

[Blue 250]

 

Interesting - some people will say that Martinez has wasted money in the transfer market. But ask them if Lukaku was a waste of money and they will say "NO".

 

The reality is that Lukaku was Martinez's budget for last summer. If Martinez has wasted £28m then its fair to say that Lukaku is a waste of money.

 

Let it go billy bullshit!

 

You were one of Martinezs' biggest fans.Every single one of his signings is yet to really prove themselves.

Your relentless trashing of one player is just embarrasing.

 

I can actually see us surviving this season courtesy of teams even worse than us ( and I think some of the quality players in this team actually realising what a disaster it would be for Everton to go down.....and finally gving it 100%)

 

If all fails and this great club does actually go down (and we have no God given right to stay up ) then I'd say the players really should hang their heads in shame, at times the football and the passion have been non-exsistent.

 

And once more just for you Billy.....NOT just Lukaku..........ALL of them.

 

The man most to blame.......Martinez, he buys the players, picks the team, brings on the subs, devises the tactics, picks the backroom staff, builds the players up.

 

The buck stops with him.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/royal-blue-8791302

[Gwlad]

(His) deep-rooted beliefs about how the game should be played. It's not all about you Roberto for God's sake. Take a look at the team's low morale and get someone to tell you what the supporters are saying....only then can you really know this great club of OURS.

[Sherpa]

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/royal-blue-8791302

Another good article and completely spot on, if Martinez could compromise and get us out of the mire he would gain more respect and increase his standing amongst the fans.

We could then kick on with a manager who is better equipped for the task in hand .... Sadly I get the feeling he won't compromise his principles.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Sherpa

[Btay]

I can't help but wonder how different Barkleys season could have been has he not done his knee. Had he come in on the roll he was on. Who knows though. ( do blame Barry for at as well )

[StevO]

Missing McCarthy for so long certainly hasn't helped, but this hasn't been good enough for a long time.

We need to win three games as a minimum, four ideally, Newcastle, QPR, Villa and Sunderland should all be winnable games. United are certainly beatable, but the way we are playing now I couldn't see us doing much against them as we need more fight. Spurs season could be over when we play them so hopefully that helps too.

 

Come the summer, should we survive, we need a massive clear out. Pienaar, Distin, Kone, Osman, Gibson, Hibbert, Mirallas. Some of these cant stay fit, others don't want to be here, we need players who can be available and committed.

 

The team needs to be built around Joel, Stones, McCarthy, Ross and Lukaku. There is massive potential in Besic, but him and McCarthy together can't work with Naismith infront of them as there is just no creativity in the middle, Ross has to play but he can't get out of this rut either.

 

Stones needs a partner for the long term, time to move Jags on for me. I'd love Ryan Shawcross, maybe Ron Vlaar on a free. We need a bit of competition for Lukaku, Danny Ings if he doesn't go to the shite. A winger or two, one must be a left footer, both need pace! I think Valencia at United will be available but I'm not sure we could convince him.

If we have the money for one serious signing, get a midfielder. If there is someone out there who could dominate centrally, win headers, win tackles, put a bit of fear into the opposition and then have the ability to pick a pass going forward, and move the play quickly, that's where I'd be happy to throw £20m plus for the right man.

 

We need more nasty in our team, we are just too nice. No one is scared of us, or any of our players. That's why I like Shawcross, he's horrible, and his first thought is defending, but forwards seem to be scared of his elbows and his studs, we need more of this.

 

We are too good to go down, we have too many good players, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. Until we win three or four games, I'll continue to shit myself.

[Paddock]

Tottenham winning thank fuck.

[Paddock]

Missing McCarthy for so long certainly hasn't helped, but this hasn't been good enough for a long time.

We need to win three games as a minimum, four ideally, Newcastle, QPR, Villa and Sunderland should all be winnable games. United are certainly beatable, but the way we are playing now I couldn't see us doing much against them as we need more fight. Spurs season could be over when we play them so hopefully that helps too.

 

Come the summer, should we survive, we need a massive clear out. Pienaar, Distin, Kone, Osman, Gibson, Hibbert, Mirallas. Some of these cant stay fit, others don't want to be here, we need players who can be available and committed.

 

The team needs to be built around Joel, Stones, McCarthy, Ross and Lukaku. There is massive potential in Besic, but him and McCarthy together can't work with Naismith infront of them as there is just no creativity in the middle, Ross has to play but he can't get out of this rut either.

 

Stones needs a partner for the long term, time to move Jags on for me. I'd love Ryan Shawcross, maybe Ron Vlaar on a free. We need a bit of competition for Lukaku, Danny Ings if he doesn't go to the shite. A winger or two, one must be a left footer, both need pace! I think Valencia at United will be available but I'm not sure we could convince him.

If we have the money for one serious signing, get a midfielder. If there is someone out there who could dominate centrally, win headers, win tackles, put a bit of fear into the opposition and then have the ability to pick a pass going forward, and move the play quickly, that's where I'd be happy to throw £20m plus for the right man.

 

We need more nasty in our team, we are just too nice. No one is scared of us, or any of our players. That's why I like Shawcross, he's horrible, and his first thought is defending, but forwards seem to be scared of his elbows and his studs, we need more of this.

 

We are too good to go down, we have too many good players, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. Until we win three or four games, I'll continue to shit myself.

Agree with absolutely everything you say BUT....

 

It'll be a new contract for the likes of Osman and Pienaar and signings like Cleverley and Maloney et al that will come in. There wont be another bumper pot to spend big and we'll continue to deaft shit like Mcgeady, Kone and Alcaraz whilst losing the likes of Mirallas I fear Colemans a gonner in the summer aswell whilst players like Osman, Pienaar etc are way past their best but will continue to be played.

 

The phrase flogging a dead horse will apply next aeason imo. Hope I'm wrong like but I don't think I am.

 

We will beat Neecastle next Sunday though, I'm certain of that.

[StevO]

I don't mind McGeady staying as long as he is back up. I forgot about Alcaraz, get him gone too.

 

I really hope it's not new contracts all round for the deadwood. If anything he needs rid of Moyes old favourites if they are causing the rumoured negative environment in the dressing room.

 

If we don't go down there should still be £30m to spend in the summer from the current tv deal. It must be used wisely or risk losing our better players should we have another bad season.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Tottenham winning thank fuck.

 

 

Squeaky bum time, QPR just got one back!

[Elston Gunnn]

Surely the very best QPR can get is 1 point. Don't like it, but just not a late-miracle 3, please.

[Btay]

 

 

Squeaky bum time, QPR just got one back!

Hate spurs but i hope they get it done!

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Thank fuck for that Spurs have won but were hanging on for dear life at the end. If QPR play like that against us they will wipe the floor with us