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Record against top 6


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It's abysmal.

  2011-12 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 2015-16 2016-17 2017-18 2018-19 Record Points
Man U 0-1 4-4 1-0 0-2 2-0 1-0 3-0 1-2 0-3 0-1 1-1 1-1 0-2 0-4     4-3-7 15
City 1-0 0-2 2-0 1-1 2-3 1-3 1-1 0-1 0-2 0-0 4-0 1-1 1-3 1-1     3-5-6 14
Chelsea 2-0 1-3 1-2 1-2 1-0 0-1 3-6 0-1 3-1 3-3 0-3 0-5 0-0 0-2     3-2-9 11
Arsenal  0-1 0-1 1-1 0-0 3-0 1-1 2-2 0-2 0-2 1-2 2-1 1-3 2-5 1-5     2-4-8 10
Spurs 1-0 0-2 2-1 2-2 0-0 0-1 0-1 1-2 1-1 0-0 1-1 2-3 0-3 0-4     2-5-7 11
Shite 0-2 0-3 2-2 0-0 3-3 0-4 0-0 1-1 1-1 0-4 0-1 1-3 0-0 1-1     0-8-6 8
Record 3-1-8 3-6-3 4-3-5 1-4-7 1-5-6 2-4-6 0-4-8      
Points 10 15 15 7 8 10 4    

 

Last time we beat each team in the league:

  • Utd - April 26 2015
  • City - January 15 2017
  • Chelsea - September 12 2015
  • Arsenal - December 13 2016
  • Spurs - December 9 2012
  • Shite - October 17 2010

Last time we beat a top 6 team away: December 4 2013

Record in our last 7 seasons (42 games) against top 6 away: 1 - 14 - 27

 

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I love getting results against the big boys, and I'll point out that we can not capitulate against them like we did last year (pathetic) or be as cautious as Moyes was setting us up away from home.... But, the true key is going to be taking care of the dross home and away. Losing the past two was unacceptable (Huddy and WHU).

I want to regain that ability to knock off the big boys, but I want more consistency across the board (refinding form away from home, beating weak teams)

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32 minutes ago, Quinn31 said:

I love getting results against the big boys, and I'll point out that we can not capitulate against them like we did last year (pathetic) or be as cautious as Moyes was setting us up away from home.... But, the true key is going to be taking care of the dross home and away. Losing the past two was unacceptable (Huddy and WHU).

I want to regain that ability to knock off the big boys, but I want more consistency across the board (refinding form away from home, beating weak teams)

agreed with the underlined.  i understand an outlier here or there but the easiest way to become part of the top 6 is to beat the lower sides.  it's 26 matches, 78 points available.  

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41 minutes ago, Quinn31 said:

I love getting results against the big boys, and I'll point out that we can not capitulate against them like we did last year (pathetic) or be as cautious as Moyes was setting us up away from home.... But, the true key is going to be taking care of the dross home and away. Losing the past two was unacceptable (Huddy and WHU).

I want to regain that ability to knock off the big boys, but I want more consistency across the board (refinding form away from home, beating weak teams)

We didn’t lose to Huddersfield but the draw was just as unacceptable. 

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I think it’s fair to say after ten games we will know about what can of season we will have. Silva has had no where near a settled first eleven. Just want us to go out and have a go at the big boys. Once Bernard is settled I think he will give us that composure and confidence you need to keep the ball and look for the forward pass 

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  • 4 weeks later...

Since 14-15 we have got worse against the top six but still finished mid table and above that to me is a good indicator of how big the gulf is getting between the top six and the rest, to bridge that gap now will take the sort of money people like Usmanov can throw at it. 

I agree we could do better against the lower teams and finish 7th or 8th but our chances of breaking into the top six are getting slimmer and slimmer every season, so if we can’t improve against the top six we are destined to stay where we are, what a shit thought. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Not getting any better...

11-12: 3-1-8 10pts; 12-13: 3-6-3 15pts; 13-14: 4-3-5 15pts; 14-15: 1-4-7 7pts; 15-16: 1-5-6 8pts; 16-17: 2-4-6 10pts; 17-18 0-4-8 4pts; 18-19 0-0-2 0pts

Utd 4-3-8 15pts; City 3-5-6 14pts; Chelsea 3-2-9 11pts; Arsenal 2-4-9 10pts; Spurs 2-5-7 11pts; Shite 0-8-6 8pts

 

Last time we beat each team in the league:

  • Utd - April 26 2015
  • City - January 15 2017
  • Chelsea - September 12 2015
  • Arsenal - December 13 2016
  • Spurs - December 9 2012
  • Shite - October 17 2010

Last time we beat a top 6 team away: December 4 2013

Record in our last 7 seasons (42 games) against top 6 away: 1 - 14 - 29

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6 hours ago, StevO said:

That would get you 78 points. 

Third place last season (17-18)

Joint third place (16-17)

second place (15-16) 

third place (14-15)

fifth place (13-14) we were actually fifth with 72

It seems like it’s a good base for 3rd place. I’d be more than happy with that.

 

 

I would be ok with that too.  City and Liverpool drew, Chelsea and united drew.  The top teams aren’t necessarily beating each other either.  So wins against the minnows and draw against the top 6 and you’re close to there.

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  • 1 month later...

Schedule oddity - all 6 games away in first half, all 6 games home in second half. Goal difference so far: -10. When we face City in February it will have been more than 2 years since our last league win against the top 6. 

11-12: 3-1-8 10pts; 12-13: 3-6-3 15pts; 13-14: 4-3-5 15pts; 14-15: 1-4-7 7pts; 15-16: 1-5-6 8pts; 16-17: 2-4-6 10pts; 17-18 0-4-8 4pts; 18-19 0-1-5 1pt

Utd 4-3-9 15pts; City 3-5-7 14pts; Chelsea 3-3-9 12pts; Spurs 2-5-8 11pts; Arsenal 2-4-9 10pts; Shite 0-8-7 8pts

Last time we beat each team in the league:

  • Utd - April 26 2015
  • City - January 15 2017
  • Chelsea - September 12 2015
  • Arsenal - December 13 2016
  • Spurs - December 9 2012
  • Shite - October 17 2010

Last time we beat a top 6 team away: December 4 2013

Record since 11-12 in games against top 6 away: 1 - 15 - 32

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18 hours ago, AlbanyNYToffee said:

Schedule oddity - all 6 games away in first half, all 6 games home in second half. Goal difference so far: -10. When we face City in February it will have been more than 2 years since our last league win against the top 6. 

11-12: 3-1-8 10pts; 12-13: 3-6-3 15pts; 13-14: 4-3-5 15pts; 14-15: 1-4-7 7pts; 15-16: 1-5-6 8pts; 16-17: 2-4-6 10pts; 17-18 0-4-8 4pts; 18-19 0-1-5 1pt

Utd 4-3-9 15pts; City 3-5-7 14pts; Chelsea 3-3-9 12pts; Spurs 2-5-8 11pts; Arsenal 2-4-9 10pts; Shite 0-8-7 8pts

Last time we beat each team in the league:

  • Utd - April 26 2015
  • City - January 15 2017
  • Chelsea - September 12 2015
  • Arsenal - December 13 2016
  • Spurs - December 9 2012
  • Shite - October 17 2010

Last time we beat a top 6 team away: December 4 2013

Record since 11-12 in games against top 6 away: 1 - 15 - 32

Wanna give that an upvote for your compiling all of it, but that’s too depressing.

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Wolves have been on fire against the top 6 this season! Look like a real threat their fans must be loving it.

8 more points aginst us compared to the top 6 which is fantastic for them. But they're only 2 points above us in the table.

A better record against the top 6 would certainly show our level in this league, but it doesn't make the teams that gain more points against them better than us.

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Its because Wolves dont try and shot for shot against them. They stick to their plan and pick their moments, which in fairness we have done in most of those games but have fallen away from recently. We have become a bit loose and gung ho, almost from the Newcastle game (albeit we were chasing). Since then we have been too open IMO.

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  • 3 months later...

Must give credit to team for turning this picture around in recent weeks.

11-12: 3-1-8 10pts; 12-13: 3-6-3 15pts; 13-14: 4-3-5 15pts; 14-15: 1-4-7 7pts; 15-16: 1-5-6 8pts; 16-17: 2-4-6 10pts; 17-18 0-4-8 4pts; 18-19 3-2-6 10pts

Utd 5-3-9 18pts; City 3-5-8 14pts; Chelsea 4-3-9 15pts; Spurs 2-5-8 11pts; Arsenal 3-4-9 13pts; Shite 0-9-7 9pts

Last time we beat each team in the league:

  • Utd - April 26 2015 UPDATE: APRIL 21 2019
  • City - January 15 2017
  • Chelsea - September 12 2015 UPDATE: MARCH 17 2019
  • Arsenal - December 13 2016 UPDATE: APRIL 7 2019
  • Spurs - December 9 2012
  • Shite - October 17 2010

Last time we beat a top 6 team away: December 4 2013

Record since 11-12 in games against top 6 away: 1 - 15 - 32

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1 hour ago, AlbanyNYToffee said:

Must give credit to team for turning this picture around in recent weeks.

11-12: 3-1-8 10pts; 12-13: 3-6-3 15pts; 13-14: 4-3-5 15pts; 14-15: 1-4-7 7pts; 15-16: 1-5-6 8pts; 16-17: 2-4-6 10pts; 17-18 0-4-8 4pts; 18-19 3-2-6 10pts

Utd 5-3-9 18pts; City 3-5-8 14pts; Chelsea 4-3-9 15pts; Spurs 2-5-8 11pts; Arsenal 3-4-9 13pts; Shite 0-9-7 9pts

Last time we beat each team in the league:

  • Utd - April 26 2015 UPDATE: APRIL 21 2019
  • City - January 15 2017
  • Chelsea - September 12 2015 UPDATE: MARCH 17 2019
  • Arsenal - December 13 2016 UPDATE: APRIL 7 2019
  • Spurs - December 9 2012
  • Shite - October 17 2010

Last time we beat a top 6 team away: December 4 2013

Record since 11-12 in games against top 6 away: 1 - 15 - 32

Yeah, but nothing has changed mate, so your facts are wrong...

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2 hours ago, AlbanyNYToffee said:

Must give credit to team for turning this picture around in recent weeks.

11-12: 3-1-8 10pts; 12-13: 3-6-3 15pts; 13-14: 4-3-5 15pts; 14-15: 1-4-7 7pts; 15-16: 1-5-6 8pts; 16-17: 2-4-6 10pts; 17-18 0-4-8 4pts; 18-19 3-2-6 10pts

Utd 5-3-9 18pts; City 3-5-8 14pts; Chelsea 4-3-9 15pts; Spurs 2-5-8 11pts; Arsenal 3-4-9 13pts; Shite 0-9-7 9pts

Last time we beat each team in the league:

  • Utd - April 26 2015 UPDATE: APRIL 21 2019
  • City - January 15 2017
  • Chelsea - September 12 2015 UPDATE: MARCH 17 2019
  • Arsenal - December 13 2016 UPDATE: APRIL 7 2019
  • Spurs - December 9 2012
  • Shite - October 17 2010

Last time we beat a top 6 team away: December 4 2013

Record since 11-12 in games against top 6 away: 1 - 15 - 32

You do realise that is all done in spite of our manager don't you? Nothing to do with him....

If we finished on 38 points he would be getting sacked and taking the blame.. but don't let that detract from the fact that those good results are nothing to do with him. 

 

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1 hour ago, pete0 said:

He's the same distance from the top 6 as Alladyce who inherited the Koeman mess. Silva has had it easier, full preseason plus 5 starters. 

Would the gap be this big of Alladyce stayed and had Digne, Zouma, Gomes, Bernard, and Richarlison to work with, I doubt it. 

Allerdyce is a specialist for swerving relegation by building a strong defensive foundation. 

He was called in, went back to basics with the squad and gave us a steady finish to a horrible season. 

Silva has then adopted that same mess that Allerdyce inherited us in, minus two players, and implemented a whole new style of play. This takes time, a lot more time than just drilling and team and forcing results. Look at Klopp for instance. 

In the last 10 games we are 5th in the form table, with 7 clean sheets and 14 goals, and only City and Liverpool have conceded less goals than us. 

The foundations of what Silva seems to be trying to do are starting to be layed down, a lot can be done better, like conceding two against Fulham who have won every game since they have been relegated, but hopefully that will come in time. 

I've been very disgruntled myself when we have lost games, but after calming down and having a look back on our over all form, it's encouraging. 

Allerdyce if still at the helm would have likely been on similar points, but the pattern of the season would have been completely different, including not being able to best the big sides, and implementing that style of football that not many successful modern clubs like to play. 

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3 hours ago, pete0 said:

He's the same distance from the top 6 as Alladyce who inherited the Koeman mess. Silva has had it easier, full preseason plus 5 starters. 

Would the gap be this big of Alladyce stayed and had Digne, Zouma, Gomes, Bernard, and Richarlison to work with, I doubt it. 

No - the gap would have been bigger and I wouldn’t of enjoyed 10 seconds of football he would have severed up! 

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11 hours ago, pete0 said:

Would the gap be this big of Alladyce stayed and had Digne, Zouma, Gomes, Bernard, and Richarlison to work with, I doubt it. 

They wouldn't have signed for us so it's academic, he would have signed a few 30 yr + players on 1 year deals with no long term plan apart from building his bank balance.

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@Aidan

That's exactly what we needed though, some strong foundations to build on. Realistically we would have got Digne, Zouma, Mina, Gomes, and Bernard in as I assume they were all targeted by Brands. The main difference signing is that we'd have brought in a central midfielder rather than Richarlison.

Given what Alladyce managed to do with last seasons unbalanced mess surely it's only logical that he'd have done better with the new signings brought in. 

Silva also had us in relegation form.

As for beating the top 6, Hodgson managed to beat Arsenal away this season. Alladyce has roughly a 1 in 5 against the top 6 which is a decent record considering he was managing worse teams than us for the majority. 

@barryj

He had the likes of Anelka and Jay Jay Okocha playing decent stuff at Bolton. 

@Wiggytop

Why wouldn't they? Other than Richarlison I don't see why any of the others wouldn't have come. The Barca boys would have been brought in by Brands and Bernard probably convinced by the money. Other than Zouma would any of the players have even heard of Silva? Talking of Zouma, he only come for first team football, if anything Allardyce would have been better for him. 

 

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What has allardyce achieved in football other than being known for a brand of football that makes his own fans want him gone? Has he ever won anything? Other than a playoff final I think I'm struggling.  

Silva has won the Portuguese second division, the Portuguese cup and Greek league.... he's not even 44 yet.

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1 hour ago, hafnia said:

What has allardyce achieved in football other than being known for a brand of football that makes his own fans want him gone? Has he ever won anything? Other than a playoff final I think I'm struggling.  

Silva has won the Portuguese second division, the Portuguese cup and Greek league.... he's not even 44 yet.

Never been relegated so he's one step ahead of Silva there.

Done well enough to get the England job and most Newcastle fans will admit they sacked him too soon. What clubs have finished higher without him? Most end up relegated which just shows how good a job he was doing just keeping them in the league. 

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9 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Never been relegated so he's one step ahead of Silva there.

Done well enough to get the England job and most Newcastle fans will admit they sacked him too soon. What clubs have finished higher without him? Most end up relegated which just shows how good a job he was going just keeping them in the league. 

Pete I just can't believe you seriously would have Allardyce over anyone. Marco got relegated with Hull after taking over in January in a hopeless position but still beat Liverpool along the way; I'd personally rather get relegated playing his way (not going to happen) than stay up playing the fat twat's anti football.

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39 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Never been relegated so he's one step ahead of Silva there.

Done well enough to get the England job and most Newcastle fans will admit they sacked him too soon. What clubs have finished higher without him? Most end up relegated which just shows how good a job he was doing just keeping them in the league. 

He got relegated with Notts County..... and he's never won a trophy!!!! Marcos won a league and a cup and a second division and when allardyce was taking his first management role Marco was 13 years old....

Sam got the England job and got sacked after one game cos he's a greedy classless twat.

Fat Sam is a consolidator, a greedy dinosaur, a bitter man who is envious of the managers who dare to play football..... all because in all his years managing all those clubs he won FUCK ALL.

 

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, hafnia said:

He got relegated with Notts County..... and he's never won a trophy!!!! Marcos won a league and a cup and a second division and when allardyce was taking his first management role Marco was 13 years old....

Sam got the England job and got sacked after one game cos he's a greedy classless twat.

Fat Sam is a consolidator, a greedy dinosaur, a bitter man who is envious of the managers who dare to play football..... all because in all his years managing all those clubs he won FUCK ALL.

 

 

 

 

 

There was nearly always a place for Allardyce to try and save clubs from relegation and in the main he was successful at that, but would his style and brand of football take teams to the next level I would say not a chance and would I want to see it here no I wouldn't.

 

10 hours ago, pete0 said:

Never been relegated so he's one step ahead of Silva there.

Done well enough to get the England job and most Newcastle fans will admit they sacked him too soon. What clubs have finished higher without him? Most end up relegated which just shows how good a job he was doing just keeping them in the league. 

Pete most Newcastle fans protested week in week out and forced Ashley to get rid of him, they hated his style of football it went against everything they believed in and the vast majority of Evertonians felt the same way

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20 hours ago, hafnia said:

What has allardyce achieved in football other than being known for a brand of football that makes his own fans want him gone? Has he ever won anything? Other than a playoff final I think I'm struggling.  

Silva has won the Portuguese second division, the Portuguese cup and Greek league.... he's not even 44 yet.

He’d have won titles with Real Madrid, don’t forget...

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  • 4 months later...

Sorry for continuing down this path - just find it fascinating. 

12-13: 3-6-3 15pts (6th)
13-14: 4-3-5 15pts (5th)
14-15: 1-4-7 7pts (11th)
15-16: 1-5-6 8pts (11th)
16-17: 2-4-6 10pts (7th)
17-18 0-4-8 4pts (8th)
18-19 3-2-6 10pts (8th)
19-20 TBD

Utd 5-2-7 17pts
City 2-5-7 11pts
Chelsea 3-3-8 12pts
Spurs 1-6-7  9pts 
Arsenal 3-4-7 13pts 
Shite 0-9-5 9pts

Last time we beat each team in the league:

  • Utd -  April 21 2019
  • City - January 15 2017
  • Chelsea - March 17 2019
  • Arsenal - April 7 2019
  • Spurs - December 9 2012
  • Shite - October 17 2010

Last time we beat a top 6 team away: December 4 2013 (Man U)

Record since 12-13 in games against top 6 home: 13-14-15
Record since 12-13 in games against top 6 away: 1-15-26

                   
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1 hour ago, AlbanyNYToffee said:

Sorry for continuing down this path - just find it fascinating. 

12-13: 3-6-3 15pts (6th)
13-14: 4-3-5 15pts (5th)
14-15: 1-4-7 7pts (11th)
15-16: 1-5-6 8pts (11th)
16-17: 2-4-6 10pts (7th)
17-18 0-4-8 4pts (8th)
18-19 3-2-6 10pts (8th)
19-20 TBD

Utd 5-2-7 17pts
City 2-5-7 11pts
Chelsea 3-3-8 12pts
Spurs 1-6-7  9pts 
Arsenal 3-4-7 13pts 
Shite 0-9-5 9pts

Last time we beat each team in the league:

  • Utd -  April 21 2019
  • City - January 15 2017
  • Chelsea - March 17 2019
  • Arsenal - April 7 2019
  • Spurs - December 9 2012
  • Shite - October 17 2010

Last time we beat a top 6 team away: December 4 2013 (Man U)

Record since 12-13 in games against top 6 home: 13-14-15
Record since 12-13 in games against top 6 away: 1-15-26

                   

Strange that while Liverpool are the only team we've not beaten over that period they've beaten us fewer times than any of the other five.

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48 minutes ago, Bill said:

I think its our record against the bottom 6 you need to worry about.

 

16 minutes ago, StevO said:

Is it that bad Bill?

Unquantifiable by the same criteria because the bottom six change every season, it'd take a fair bit of work checking year on year to come up with the answer.

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51 minutes ago, MikeO said:

....it'd take a fair bit of work checking year on year to come up with the answer.

Waiting for the vote in the house I decided to do it...

12/13 6-4-2
13/14 6-4-2
14/15 6-2-4
15/16 7-4-1
16/17 6-3-3
17/18 6-5-1
18/19 8-1-3

Total of 45-23-16 = 158 points at 1.88 points per game. 

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  • 1 year later...

Looking at that, we should be able to easily surpass our previous points tally of 15. Biggest difference this year is that with the topsy-turvy nature of this season, the "Big 6" aren't performing up to their usual standards.

Any other season, if you looked at that and saw we had collected 14 points against the "Big 6" with 4 games remaining, you'd assume we were squarely in a position for Europe. Now, we are still very much in the mix for a top 4 finish, but because this season has been so bonkers, those 14 points don't carry as much weight as they would in any other season. 

Funnily enough, it could be the 4 points we took off Leicester and if we can claim 3 against West Ham that might make the difference. Never would've thought that heading into the season

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