Carlo Ancelotti

[Hafnia]

 

those players at Chelsea should never have got any manager the sack.... Absolutely ridiculous squad.  Tuchel hasnt so much as turned them around..... He's just stopped them playing ridiculous football.

Ancellotti would have walked into that squad and had them playing like we were in August/September..... Because they are capable of it. 

[c1982]

5 hours ago, Bailey said:

isn't it a bit of a tribute to Bielsa that he has only brought in 8 players from a team threatened by relegation to get them promoted to the Premier League (and competing in it to mid-table) with a squad largely consisting of the same players? Ancellotti has made 6 signings (Allan, Godfrey, Niels, Olsen, Doucoure, James). There is nothing that I have seen to say Ancellotti would have got Leeds to the position they are in now.

Well Bielsa has signed a lot more than 8 players in his time at Leeds - I’ve just counted 12 in the current squad and that’s not considering loan players who helped get them back to the Prem and players like Barry Douglas who he signed and have since moved on. I’d guess the number would be at least 20 signings. Taking over a relegation threatened team? Leeds? No they weren’t - in the season before he joined they finished comfortably mid-table. Bielsa has done a great job, no doubt, but to ask could Ancelotti have done what he has? God knows... could Bielsa have done a better job with this Everton squad than Ancelotti?

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, c1982 said:

Well Bielsa has signed a lot more than 8 players in his time at Leeds - I’ve just counted 12 in the current squad and that’s not considering loan players who helped get them back to the Prem and players like Barry Douglas who he signed and have since moved on. I’d guess the number would be at least 20 signings. Taking over a relegation threatened team? Leeds? No they weren’t - in the season before he joined they finished comfortably mid-table. Bielsa has done a great job, no doubt, but to ask could Ancelotti have done what he has? God knows... could Bielsa have done a better job with this Everton squad than Ancelotti?

In the current squad I only saw 8 players that he would have brought in, pleased to be proven wrong, it shows that getting your own players gives you a better chance of putting a team out in your own style.  

[Hafnia]

19 hours ago, Bailey said:

isn't it a bit of a tribute to Bielsa that he has only brought in 8 players from a team threatened by relegation to get them promoted to the Premier League (and competing in it to mid-table) with a squad largely consisting of the same players? Ancellotti has made 6 signings (Allan, Godfrey, Niels, Olsen, Doucoure, James). There is nothing that I have seen to say Ancellotti would have got Leeds to the position they are in now.

I have covered Bielsa above and I also talked about Tuchel, the argument for the latter taking into account the ability of the players and more being about how quickly a manager can instill his ideas into a squad.

Yes we were under performing but we were not getting relegated. Much like we weren't when Allardyce took over. Those same players were top half players the season before. I take it your argument isn't that Silva and Koeman over performed the previous season?

What I take from that last paragraph is that in order for Carlo to be successful at Everton, we have to purchase a group of elite footballers? Many of these comments would have leveled at the Chelsea squad before Lampard was sacked (I think it was  that you suggested there was no leadership).

What you can take from the last paragraph is this:

There may be managers out there who could get our current players performing at higher level than they are..... To do this would require a specific approach that likely has a shelf life before they lose the dressing room.  You reckon the Duncan Ferguson approach could have lasted more than a few more matches? Before injuries ravaged the squad.  Ebbrell told me himself that what they were doing was not sustainable physically and mentally.

Be under no illusions.... The pre Carlo Everton was prime relegation fodder.  A dangerous mix of comfortable, highly paid, overrated and non motivated players.  Reminiscent of the Newcastle side that got relegated.  Supposedly too good to be relegated but absolutely no back bone.

Without the introduction of Carlos signings I would guess we would be 14th or lower right now.

 

Are you actually saying that Lampard needed elite footballers to be signed and that somehow Tuchel has managed to get a tune out of dross such as Werner, Mount, Kante, kovacic, James........ Seriously?! Out of our first 11 only 3 players would get in the Chelsea side at best.  The rest probably wouldn't even make the bench.  Instill ideas? Tuchel is working with proper footballers..... Not Andre Gomes and Gylfi Siggurdson who are so one paced and lacking any sort of courage to do anything other than look like players afraid to get their shorts dirty. We lose James and we have Iwobi as the creative option ........  They have options galore.

So yes ..... Carlo the manager who has an undisputed record of delivering trophies with elite players deserves elite players. Not this shower of shite. 

 

 

[c1982]

Ancelotti would have 100% have asked for more quality in other areas last summer but he prioritised improving possibly the weakest midfield in the league (I’m not joking either) by bringing in James, Doucoure and Allan and bringing some pace into a very slow defence. We went into this season still paying the wages of Walcott, Bolasie, Besic, Tosun, etc. who offer nothing, then Gbamin and Delph who have been constantly injured (also offering nothing) you’ve got to factor that in. There’s a lot of wages/ investment there and we haven’t touched on the likes of Gylfi, Iwobi, Bernard and Gomes. Ancelotti has barely got started here.

[Bailey]

23 hours ago, Sibdane said:

I get what you're saying but I wouldn't throw those two in the pot. I imagine Niels has played more than expected (which is still very little), and Olsen was brought in as a backup to a position you never really want to rotate unless you have to. 

That is balanced by the same thing for Bielsa.

21 hours ago, Sibdane said:

We also can't forget that we've been without Allan and Doucoure for good chunks of the season. 

Leeds have also had plenty of injuries too.

18 hours ago, c1982 said:

Well Bielsa has signed a lot more than 8 players in his time at Leeds - I’ve just counted 12 in the current squad and that’s not considering loan players who helped get them back to the Prem and players like Barry Douglas who he signed and have since moved on. I’d guess the number would be at least 20 signings. Taking over a relegation threatened team? Leeds? No they weren’t - in the season before he joined they finished comfortably mid-table. Bielsa has done a great job, no doubt, but to ask could Ancelotti have done what he has? God knows... could Bielsa have done a better job with this Everton squad than Ancelotti?

I was going by the number given to me. Blame whoever posted it! A lot of the player he brought up still play for them now though, which is the main point. Here is a link to his first game... Look how many started or are on the bench. Its hardly a side that has been transformed by signings.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44995752

You are completely correct about the relegation comment though, knew I should have checked! It was a couple of seasons before that they were looking over their shoulder. Before Bielsa they finished 13th, 7th and then 13th. They then went on to be first or second for most of the season before finishing 3rd when Bielsa took over before being crowned champions the following season. They are now only 5 points behind us in their first season in the league with a squad largely consisting of the same players. 

Again I didn't ask the question, it was put to me. The way I see it is that there is clear performance improvements at Leeds both in the style of play and in their subsequent promotion and premier league performance. Our football, with a far superior squad of players is awful.

 

4 hours ago, Hafnia said:

 

Are you actually saying that Lampard needed elite footballers to be signed and that somehow Tuchel has managed to get a tune out of dross such as Werner, Mount, Kante, kovacic, James........ Seriously?! Out of our first 11 only 3 players would get in the Chelsea side at best.  The rest probably wouldn't even make the bench.  Instill ideas? Tuchel is working with proper footballers..... Not Andre Gomes and Gylfi Siggurdson who are so one paced and lacking any sort of courage to do anything other than look like players afraid to get their shorts dirty. We lose James and we have Iwobi as the creative option ........  They have options galore.

So yes ..... Carlo the manager who has an undisputed record of delivering trophies with elite players deserves elite players. Not this shower of shite. 

 

 

No that isn't what I am saying. I wouldn't rate Lampard that highly as a manager but he got a decent tune out of some average players at Derby who have gone the other way since. Lampard also oversaw a young Chelsea side with lots of academy graduates and if anything, his problems arose more from those "elite" signings than the young lads he introduced to the Premier League.

He is however a young manager and Tuchel, who has more experience, has come in and tightened everything up and introduced a lot more structure. The patterns of play and organisation in attack are much more defined. That doesn't make Lampard a bad coach, it just makes Tuchel a better one. It wasn't that Lampard struggled for a lack of leadership like you said he did, because the performances under Tuchel suggest otherwise. At no point have I sought to compare squads as there is clearly a gulf between the two, but the two examples I have given show clearly that you don't need elite players to play quality football in the premier league. Bielsa did it with a mid-table Championship side in the space of one pre-season, and Tuchel took a handful of training sessions to do it with his quality Chelsea side.

If Carlo needs elite players, then in all honesty, why is he here?

[Sibdane]

10 minutes ago, Bailey said:

That is balanced by the same thing for Bielsa.

Leeds have also had plenty of injuries too.

 

1. How so? 

2. Looking at our injuries, Godfrey is the only one who has managed to stay healthy, and you could argue that he wasn't brought in to be an immediate first-teamer.

I think you're being too hard on Ancelloti given the circumstances. I don't see how their current situations are comparable.   

 

[c1982]

3 hours ago, Bailey said:

That is balanced by the same thing for Bielsa.

Leeds have also had plenty of injuries too.

I was going by the number given to me. Blame whoever posted it! A lot of the player he brought up still play for them now though, which is the main point. Here is a link to his first game... Look how many started or are on the bench. Its hardly a side that has been transformed by signings.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44995752

You are completely correct about the relegation comment though, knew I should have checked! It was a couple of seasons before that they were looking over their shoulder. Before Bielsa they finished 13th, 7th and then 13th. They then went on to be first or second for most of the season before finishing 3rd when Bielsa took over before being crowned champions the following season. They are now only 5 points behind us in their first season in the league with a squad largely consisting of the same players. 

Again I didn't ask the question, it was put to me. The way I see it is that there is clear performance improvements at Leeds both in the style of play and in their subsequent promotion and premier league performance. Our football, with a far superior squad of players is awful.

 

That link to Bielsa’s first game includes 5 of his signings - he’s added many more since.

Regarding our far superior squad - really? I disagree. We have a much more expensively assembled squad and a squad on much higher wages but superior - I disagree. I’d take plenty of players off Leeds who would improve us - Raphinha, Harrison, Phillips, Llorente, Rodrigo - yes we probably have better players (on paper) overall but they have far better suited players and a better balance in the squad - this comes when a manager is backed and given time to implement their style.

[Hafnia]

7 hours ago, Bailey said:

That is balanced by the same thing for Bielsa.

Leeds have also had plenty of injuries too.

I was going by the number given to me. Blame whoever posted it! A lot of the player he brought up still play for them now though, which is the main point. Here is a link to his first game... Look how many started or are on the bench. Its hardly a side that has been transformed by signings.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44995752

You are completely correct about the relegation comment though, knew I should have checked! It was a couple of seasons before that they were looking over their shoulder. Before Bielsa they finished 13th, 7th and then 13th. They then went on to be first or second for most of the season before finishing 3rd when Bielsa took over before being crowned champions the following season. They are now only 5 points behind us in their first season in the league with a squad largely consisting of the same players. 

Again I didn't ask the question, it was put to me. The way I see it is that there is clear performance improvements at Leeds both in the style of play and in their subsequent promotion and premier league performance. Our football, with a far superior squad of players is awful.

 

No that isn't what I am saying. I wouldn't rate Lampard that highly as a manager but he got a decent tune out of some average players at Derby who have gone the other way since. Lampard also oversaw a young Chelsea side with lots of academy graduates and if anything, his problems arose more from those "elite" signings than the young lads he introduced to the Premier League.

He is however a young manager and Tuchel, who has more experience, has come in and tightened everything up and introduced a lot more structure. The patterns of play and organisation in attack are much more defined. That doesn't make Lampard a bad coach, it just makes Tuchel a better one. It wasn't that Lampard struggled for a lack of leadership like you said he did, because the performances under Tuchel suggest otherwise. At no point have I sought to compare squads as there is clearly a gulf between the two, but the two examples I have given show clearly that you don't need elite players to play quality football in the premier league. Bielsa did it with a mid-table Championship side in the space of one pre-season, and Tuchel took a handful of training sessions to do it with his quality Chelsea side.

If Carlo needs elite players, then in all honesty, why is he here?

If Carlo needs elite players then why is he here?

Because he is in the process of getting them in.  See James Rodriguez, Allan..... I repeat - tell me a manager who can get that level of player to sign for a team that was scrapping at the bottom half 6 months before. 

I think you just enjoy being contrary tbh.

 

Just currently watching Chelsea hand Real Madrid their arse.....  Pulisic, mount..... Outstanding.  

[Btay]

Will be hugely disappointed if we don’t have any form of Europe next year but looking at the season realistically -

We’ve probably had our best season against the “bigger” teams.

Away form has been excellent.

Finally lost the liverpool hoodo 

Beat arsenal away 

So hopefully we back Carlo/Brands in the market and get those 3/4 players that will bring a higher level of consistency.

[Matt]

I don't really care about Europe next season, it was always a nice to have rather than a must for me because I still think we need another season of stabilising and laying foundations. For me the more important thing is the transfer window, which we can't judge until September 

[Bailey]

23 hours ago, Sibdane said:

1. How so? 

2. Looking at our injuries, Godfrey is the only one who has managed to stay healthy, and you could argue that he wasn't brought in to be an immediate first-teamer.

I think you're being too hard on Ancelloti given the circumstances. I don't see how their current situations are comparable.   

 

1. As in Bielsa will have players that aren't expecting to necessarily start but supplement the squad like Olsen and Niels.

2. Every side has injuries. James will always spend a lot of time on the sidelines and Allan will miss games too. I get that it doesn't help but it isnt the difference between good attacking structure or a coherrent defensive press or not.

19 hours ago, c1982 said:

That link to Bielsa’s first game includes 5 of his signings - he’s added many more since.

Regarding our far superior squad - really? I disagree. We have a much more expensively assembled squad and a squad on much higher wages but superior - I disagree. I’d take plenty of players off Leeds who would improve us - Raphinha, Harrison, Phillips, Llorente, Rodrigo - yes we probably have better players (on paper) overall but they have far better suited players and a better balance in the squad - this comes when a manager is backed and given time to implement their style.

The point I made originally is that you can coach average players to perform to the instructions of the manager. That is all. Regardless of whether he signed them or not this Leeds side, is a Championship side on ability. Bielsa has done an incredible job managing them and he usues largely the same squad he started with back at the start. They are successful due to the manager and not due to the quality of the players. 

I disagree about the players because you take Bielsa away and those players wont be as successful. Raphina is clearly a talent but the rest are dubious and arent guarenteed to transfer the same level of form elsewhere. 

16 hours ago, Hafnia said:

If Carlo needs elite players then why is he here?

Because he is in the process of getting them in.  See James Rodriguez, Allan..... I repeat - tell me a manager who can get that level of player to sign for a team that was scrapping at the bottom half 6 months before. 

I think you just enjoy being contrary tbh.

 

Just currently watching Chelsea hand Real Madrid their arse.....  Pulisic, mount..... Outstanding.  

Allan isn't elite. Even James for all his clear talent, wouldn't get in the City, Chelsea, Liverpool, Madrid, Bayern etc squads because of the rest of his game. 

Despite this elite talent, we are still playing relegation quality football. If this was Dave Jones who took Exeter to promotion and then signed for us, there would be a lot more questions floating around. Carlo clearly gets more benefit of the doubt, and should have more time to work with the team but the football we have played in his 12 months here has been as bad as I remember it being for a long time and that isn't good enough for a man of his experience, the money spent and the squad at his disposal. 

 

[c1982]

53 minutes ago, Bailey said:

The point I made originally is that you can coach average players to perform to the instructions of the manager. That is all. Regardless of whether he signed them or not this Leeds side, is a Championship side on ability. Bielsa has done an incredible job managing them and he usues largely the same squad he started with back at the start. They are successful due to the manager and not due to the quality of the players. 

I disagree about the players because you take Bielsa away and those players wont be as successful. Raphina is clearly a talent but the rest are dubious and arent guarenteed to transfer the same level of form elsewhere.

I don’t see too many Spanish, German and England internationals plying their trade in the Championship. Bielsa is clearly a top manager but he’s got some excellent players too.

[Hafnia]

2 hours ago, Bailey said:

1. As in Bielsa will have players that aren't expecting to necessarily start but supplement the squad like Olsen and Niels.

2. Every side has injuries. James will always spend a lot of time on the sidelines and Allan will miss games too. I get that it doesn't help but it isnt the difference between good attacking structure or a coherrent defensive press or not.

The point I made originally is that you can coach average players to perform to the instructions of the manager. That is all. Regardless of whether he signed them or not this Leeds side, is a Championship side on ability. Bielsa has done an incredible job managing them and he usues largely the same squad he started with back at the start. They are successful due to the manager and not due to the quality of the players. 

I disagree about the players because you take Bielsa away and those players wont be as successful. Raphina is clearly a talent but the rest are dubious and arent guarenteed to transfer the same level of form elsewhere. 

Allan isn't elite. Even James for all his clear talent, wouldn't get in the City, Chelsea, Liverpool, Madrid, Bayern etc squads because of the rest of his game. 

Despite this elite talent, we are still playing relegation quality football. If this was Dave Jones who took Exeter to promotion and then signed for us, there would be a lot more questions floating around. Carlo clearly gets more benefit of the doubt, and should have more time to work with the team but the football we have played in his 12 months here has been as bad as I remember it being for a long time and that isn't good enough for a man of his experience, the money spent and the squad at his disposal. 

 

FFS are we quibbling cover whether Allan and James are elite now?  

Whatever.  Let's say they are the minimum level of what Ancellotti would like to manage..... It means we have at least 7 players not good enough. 

James wouldn't get in the other clubs "squads". Well that is absolute bollocks for a start..... At very very worst he gets on the bench in any side because he's a match winner. 

Carlo Ancellotti isn't Dave Jones from Exeter..... The reason he isn't Dave Jones from Exeter is that he's Carlo Ancellotti who has won 19 major trophies at 6 clubs.... Who has been voted best manager in world football twice, who has players such as ibrahimovic, Terry, Lampard and Ronaldo say he's the best coach they've played for. 

He's kind of earned this level of blind trust some of us are showing him.......  Maybe some of us realise that the players he inherited that have had us floundering for a while really are shit. 

[StevO]

Bailey you’re one miserable bastard

[StevO]

2 hours ago, Hafnia said:

FFS are we quibbling cover whether Allan and James are elite now?  

Whatever.  Let's say they are the minimum level of what Ancellotti would like to manage..... It means we have at least 7 players not good enough. 

James wouldn't get in the other clubs "squads". Well that is absolute bollocks for a start..... At very very worst he gets on the bench in any side because he's a match winner. 

Carlo Ancellotti isn't Dave Jones from Exeter..... The reason he isn't Dave Jones from Exeter is that he's Carlo Ancellotti who has won 19 major trophies at 6 clubs.... Who has been voted best manager in world football twice, who has players such as ibrahimovic, Terry, Lampard and Ronaldo say he's the best coach they've played for. 

He's kind of earned this level of blind trust some of us are showing him.......  Maybe some of us realise that the players he inherited that have had us floundering for a while really are shit. 

Haf, you’ve made a post and I agree with every word. I’m going to open a beer. It’s been a while.  

[Palfy]

11 minutes ago, StevO said:

Haf, you’ve made a post and I agree with every word. I’m going to open a beer. It’s been a while.  

What that you’ve opened a beer or agreed with Haf

[Hafnia]

3 hours ago, StevO said:

Haf, you’ve made a post and I agree with every word. I’m going to open a beer. It’s been a while.  

Enjoy it ya helmet. Be a while till ya next one. 

[StevO]

3 hours ago, Palfy said:

What that you’ve opened a beer or agreed with Haf

The beer is a regular, me and Haf agreeing? Not so much.

[Bailey]

20 hours ago, Hafnia said:

FFS are we quibbling cover whether Allan and James are elite now?  

Whatever.  Let's say they are the minimum level of what Ancellotti would like to manage..... It means we have at least 7 players not good enough. 

James wouldn't get in the other clubs "squads". Well that is absolute bollocks for a start..... At very very worst he gets on the bench in any side because he's a match winner. 

Carlo Ancellotti isn't Dave Jones from Exeter..... The reason he isn't Dave Jones from Exeter is that he's Carlo Ancellotti who has won 19 major trophies at 6 clubs.... Who has been voted best manager in world football twice, who has players such as ibrahimovic, Terry, Lampard and Ronaldo say he's the best coach they've played for. 

He's kind of earned this level of blind trust some of us are showing him.......  Maybe some of us realise that the players he inherited that have had us floundering for a while really are shit. 

Do you not think every manager has a minimum level of what they would like to manage? It's just nonsense, a great manager, works with the players they have and then improves them, whilst gradually adding to the squad piece by piece.

Then why didn't any of those clubs sign him? Why was he not playing for Madrid? On ability alone he could get into their sides but that is only a small part of the package with him. Could you see him playing in the role Havertz or Mount play for Chelsea with the way they press and work? Not a chance.

I don't think anyone gets blind trust. You judge, what you see and the progress that is being made. That is like saying you will have Lukaku back now as he has won a league and scored 20+ goals again. Do you now blindly trust that he is the centre forward you want in the side? Should we have blindly trusted Delph to be any good because he won trophies with City?

If you think this side is well managed then at least point me to what you think shows that and debate the ins and outs of those points because at the moment all we are doing is going round in circles that are miles away from the original point.

[Bailey]

18 hours ago, StevO said:

Bailey you’re one miserable bastard

Everton and/or this place drives me to it sometimes.

I am all about a good laugh in the real world!

[Matt]

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

Everton and/or this place drives me to it sometimes.

I am all about a good laugh in the real world!

Real world?

[Hafnia]

2 hours ago, Bailey said:

Do you not think every manager has a minimum level of what they would like to manage? It's just nonsense, a great manager, works with the players they have and then improves them, whilst gradually adding to the squad piece by piece.

Then why didn't any of those clubs sign him? Why was he not playing for Madrid? On ability alone he could get into their sides but that is only a small part of the package with him. Could you see him playing in the role Havertz or Mount play for Chelsea with the way they press and work? Not a chance.

I don't think anyone gets blind trust. You judge, what you see and the progress that is being made. That is like saying you will have Lukaku back now as he has won a league and scored 20+ goals again. Do you now blindly trust that he is the centre forward you want in the side? Should we have blindly trusted Delph to be any good because he won trophies with City?

If you think this side is well managed then at least point me to what you think shows that and debate the ins and outs of those points because at the moment all we are doing is going round in circles that are miles away from the original point.

I think every single manager in world football wants to manage elite players..... Because ultimately they are the ones best equipped to win you football matches.

The reality of that situation is that elite footballers are a different breed to the average footballer ..... They have egos, demands, arrogance and a general disregard for managers who don't know how to run a team or manage big players.

This is why you see managers fall flat on their faces like AVB did .... Like Moyes did.

So next question ... Why did other clubs not sign James? James actually said he chose to come to Everton to play for a manager who trusted him and he trusted.  Are you honestly saying that James Rodriguez on a free transfer had other clubs knocking him back???  Behave mate. 

So James has to be mount or havertz to get into Chelsea's side now?  Again .. another load of bollocks.  He would get in to their side and no doubt be there to do the role that Ancellotti  wants him to do for us.  

 

Whether you like it or not ... And quite clearly you don't.  Carlo Ancellotti has amassed far more goodwill and trust in his tactical knowledge than probably any other manager on the planet.  It's going to take alot of copying and pasting from football analyst hipster sites to make many on here think that the problems we see are down to the manager or something that the manager could and should solve without a decent budget.  

[Romey 1878]

This is all my fault. 

[c1982]

This is a great stat to have and today is a perfect example. Not always pretty but win those personal battles all over the pitch and you’ll win more than you lose.

[pete0]

Sigurdsson and Gomes skew the stats.

 

[Bailey]

On 07/05/2021 at 16:03, Matt said:

Real world?

I hate to break it to you Matt, but this is a forum and we are all sitting behind computers (or similar devices)

On 07/05/2021 at 21:49, Romey 1878 said:

This is all my fault. 

[Matt]

33 minutes ago, Bailey said:

I hate to break it to you Matt, but this is a forum and we are all sitting behind computers (or similar devices)

@MikeOwe've got a non-believer! Get the torches!

[Shukes]

4 hours ago, Bailey said:

I hate to break it to you Matt, but this is a forum and we are all sitting behind computers (or similar devices)

I knew it.... the Matrix was real!!!!! 
Trying to remember which colour I took now

[London Blue]

21 minutes ago, Shukes said:

I knew it.... the Matrix was real!!!!! 
Trying to remember which colour I took now

Blue I hope!!