Vitaliy Mykolenko

[Matt]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

I understand the FFP rules, but when a player says he wants to leave you have to get a replacement in. Mykolenko if available will be coming here whether Digne has departed or not, ideally you would want Digne to have gone early in the same transfer window. So I would say it isn’t bad business but necessary business and on this occasion we haven’t been forced to sell because we want to buy. Digne could be very picky in where he wants to go so may not get the move he wants, so if we can get a replacement very early Digne loses a lot of cards he’s holding, because the club can say if you don’t except offers from the likes of Newcastle and your favoured clubs don’t come in you will not be making the squad here, and will soon become a forgotten man. It takes a strong club and management to do that and I believe we now have a stronger club with Ancelotti and Brand’s gone.  

Do you? Could you explain them please? Not being funny, but seems everyone has their own interpretation.

[Palfy]

26 minutes ago, Matt said:

Do you? Could you explain them please? Not being funny, but seems everyone has their own interpretation.

Is this a prelude for you being able to shoot me down , the easiest thing to do is read the article posted in the Echo less than a week ago out lining the FFP rules, that’s what I did. 

[RuffRob]

40 minutes ago, Matt said:

Do you? Could you explain them please? Not being funny, but seems everyone has their own interpretation.

I don't think even the clubs fully understand them, I read that Everton had to check with the power that be to see how close there are of if they are likely be be broken, and there are two forms of them,  Premier league ones and UEFA ones, and them you have a COVID adjustment. Which might kick in again as some European countries now not letting fans in grounds again. It a mine field. 

I think its probably safe to say that we are probably pretty close to falling foul of them given our big spending coupled with limited revenue streams.

[Matt]

59 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Is this a prelude for you being able to shoot me down , the easiest thing to do is read the article posted in the Echo less than a week ago out lining the FFP rules, that’s what I did. 

Not at all, it's a genuine question! Thought I'd made that clear, but to reiterate I'm honestly interested to hear your interpretation. 

 

38 minutes ago, RuffRob said:

I don't think even the clubs fully understand them, I read that Everton had to check with the power that be to see how close there are of if they are likely be be broken, and there are two forms of them,  Premier league ones and UEFA ones, and them you have a COVID adjustment. Which might kick in again as some European countries now not letting fans in grounds again. It a mine field. 

I think its probably safe to say that we are probably pretty close to falling foul of them given our big spending coupled with limited revenue streams.

That's my feeling too. Think FFP is a good idea but it was implemented too fast without any real consideration of potential impacts and loopholes. 

[Palfy]

Apologies Matt for doubting your post. FFP was designed to try and stop teams getting into debts they can’t repay, and to stop asset stripping by owners, whether it works is a different story. UEFA are currently in court battles with teams who have been accused of breaking the rules which I believe has forced them to water down the rules, which means you can break the rules on money spent to income over multiple seasons before serious punishments are administered, such as larger fines, points deducted or being removed from competitions. You can also appeal against any judgment being found against you if you believe you have mitigating circumstances. Hence my reply to Steve saying the purchase of Mykolenko is a bad deal and that we can’t buy unless we sell. 

[RuffRob]

52 minutes ago, Matt said:

Not at all, it's a genuine question! Thought I'd made that clear, but to reiterate I'm honestly interested to hear your interpretation. 

 

That's my feeling too. Think FFP is a good idea but it was implemented too fast without any real consideration of potential impacts and loopholes. 

my overriding issue with FFP is that it now essentially protects those clubs who where 'lucky' enough to get massive cash injections 10-20 years ago and effectively penalises those clubs that didn't. To me it is the most significant ruling that has ever been brought in to the game and has influenced who are not considered the top teams like nothing else, and continually offers them protection. 

Its like going in to at half time 1-0 down off a fluky deflection but then the rules of the game changing - the team who are a goal up can put a 12th player on (to represent your CL etc earnings) and the team who are one goal down has to take a player off (as you now have limits on what you can spend related to turnover). It hard to come back in a game with these rules.

At least let the losing teams keep 11 players on the pitch!!!

 

 

 

[Aidan]

I'm not a business man, so will not be offended if anyone calls me incorrect, but my interpretation of the Digne situation is this.

Digne wants to leave, thus automatically devaluing him as other clubs understand he may put pressure on the board to go. This won't always be the case as fundamentally the club make the final decision, but this surly is a factor for the buying club to negotiate.

Further to this a replacement is already through the door (or so we think). Another negotiating factor for other clubs who will know our FFP 'wiggle room' and want to take advantage of this. They will understand we need to sell to raise funds otherwise face fines.

One more factor maybe that Rafa sees Digne as a player who does not fit into his style of play. He no longer becomes a key player for us and the argument of his importance to the squad is lost during negotiations.

The only valuation we have of him is the quality he's shown over the past few years and the 3.5 years he has remaining on his current deal.

I'd be surprised if we gained more than £25m for him.

[RuffRob]

17 minutes ago, Aidan said:

I'm not a business man, so will not be offended if anyone calls me incorrect, but my interpretation of the Digne situation is this.

Digne wants to leave, thus automatically devaluing him as other clubs understand he may put pressure on the board to go. This won't always be the case as fundamentally the club make the final decision, but this surly is a factor for the buying club to negotiate.

Further to this a replacement is already through the door (or so we think). Another negotiating factor for other clubs who will know our FFP 'wiggle room' and want to take advantage of this. They will understand we need to sell to raise funds otherwise face fines.

One more factor maybe that Rafa sees Digne as a player who does not fit into his style of play. He no longer becomes a key player for us and the argument of his importance to the squad is lost during negotiations.

The only valuation we have of him is the quality he's shown over the past few years and the 3.5 years he has remaining on his current deal.

I'd be surprised if we gained more than £25m for him.

but counter to that is - the age old 'supply and demand'. There are not that may good players in supply in January and there seems to be a demand by more than one club. Digne is also not cup ties for playing in Europe. Once you have more than one club interested, then any single club loses a lot of negotiating bargain chips. 

A replacement lined up means Digne faces being on the bench at Everton if he does not move to a club that we are willing to sell him to. He will not want to be on the bench on the run up to what might be his last chance to play in a world cup. 

I don't think Mykolenko deal hinges on Digne sale, but a Digne sale may also allow another one or two to come in January. 

£25M is probably not far of the mark of what he is worth, as whoever buys him will take on his hefty wages as well. I think we get a better deal selling him now than in the summer though. If he stays until the end of August that's also another £3.5M in wages spent!!  

[Matt]

3 hours ago, Palfy said:

Apologies Matt for doubting your post. FFP was designed to try and stop teams getting into debts they can’t repay, and to stop asset stripping by owners, whether it works is a different story. UEFA are currently in court battles with teams who have been accused of breaking the rules which I believe has forced them to water down the rules, which means you can break the rules on money spent to income over multiple seasons before serious punishments are administered, such as larger fines, points deducted or being removed from competitions. You can also appeal against any judgment being found against you if you believe you have mitigating circumstances. Hence my reply to Steve saying the purchase of Mykolenko is a bad deal and that we can’t buy unless we sell. 

No worries. And no disrespect but that's why it is and not how it works. 

[Romey 1878]

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/dynamo-kyiv-vitaliy-mykolenko-everton-22551628

[Bailey]

I guess this will go down as a Brands signing when it happens. Hopefully it works.

[RuffRob]

6 minutes ago, Bailey said:

I guess this will go down as a Brands signing when it happens. Hopefully it works.

It is interesting to read that Mykolenko was a player both Benitez and Brands agreed on. If they had BOTH been looking at a £20m LB was there already a plan to cash in on Digne in the next 12-18month. The 'fallout' simply excelerating the process? Just a thought. 

[Bailey]

34 minutes ago, RuffRob said:

It is interesting to read that Mykolenko was a player both Benitez and Brands agreed on. If they had BOTH been looking at a £20m LB was there already a plan to cash in on Digne in the next 12-18month. The 'fallout' simply excelerating the process? Just a thought. 

I think it was probably just good 'succession planning'. 

Its safe to say the jury is out on Niels as he doesnt seem to have been fancied by Carlo or Benitez. 

I imagine they would have hoped that Digne could have passed on some of his experience before Mykolenko took over and Digne was moved on. 

Its a shame the other side of the pitch hasn't been as well considered!

[Bailey]

 

 

 

[Bailey]

 

 

 

[dunlopp9987]

19 minutes ago, Bailey said:

 

 

 

I guess I'm glad to see he's not on massive wages, but £20m for someone coming from the Ukrainian league is a real gamble. Especially with our financial constraints.

Really hope he's something special, but I just worry over that fee

[Bailey]

7 hours ago, dunlopp9987 said:

I guess I'm glad to see he's not on massive wages, but £20m for someone coming from the Ukrainian league is a real gamble. Especially with our financial constraints.

Really hope he's something special, but I just worry over that fee

Id also say £50k per week for the same league is a big gamble!

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

Id also say £50k per week for the same league is a big gamble!

Are you completely discounting that he may have stood out when playing international and European football, as someone with the ability to go and become a very good player given the right opportunity. And I would remind you buying players from the top 3 or 4 leagues is no guarantee even if you are paying them between 100-200k a week. 
We have needed to find another way of doing our business so buying younger players on wages less than 50% plus of some of our senior players who haven’t repaid their costs is a better way forward imo, everything is a gamble whether it be managers or players, and in Benitez I believe we have a very calculated manager and he will make Mykolenko a real success as Gray is. 

[RuffRob]

10 hours ago, Bailey said:

Id also say £50k per week for the same league is a big gamble!

He is definately not cheap, the problem now is you simply have to pay these fees and wages for the best and most sort after youngsters around. This lad has been on the radar of some big clubs, lets hope we have caught them napping this january, sorry I mean December.

Pretty much all transfers are a gamble. Some just more so than others. 

 

[Bailey]

15 hours ago, Palfy said:

Are you completely discounting that he may have stood out when playing international and European football, as someone with the ability to go and become a very good player given the right opportunity. And I would remind you buying players from the top 3 or 4 leagues is no guarantee even if you are paying them between 100-200k a week. 
We have needed to find another way of doing our business so buying younger players on wages less than 50% plus of some of our senior players who haven’t repaid their costs is a better way forward imo, everything is a gamble whether it be managers or players, and in Benitez I believe we have a very calculated manager and he will make Mykolenko a real success as Gray is. 

Lots of players stand out in internationals but it doesnt make them good players.

He might turn out to be very good but its hard to judge him in that league. Not many come over and stand out over here. Even less come over and hit the ground running. He could be the one though.

It may turn out to be a cheap deal but when you consider Digne had played at the very highest level, cost less in transfer fee and not that much more in wages (relatively speaking). 

This is a signing that Brands has had a big say in as he was scouted well before Benitez arrived according to reports.

I have had a little look at videos of him and I actually think he looks quite decent. In that league he looks pretty strong and quick. He has good size about him too. He has enough about him to beat a man at that level and he has the technique to whip in a decent enough cross too. I certainly think he is too good for that league but whether he does that in the Premier League I'm not so sure where players are stronger, quicker and smarter. It depends on how he adapts.

My one concern would be that I think he could end up seeing a few bookings whilst he settles in as he seems to like going off his feet. 

[Palfy]

13 minutes ago, Bailey said:

Lots of players stand out in internationals but it doesnt make them good players.

He might turn out to be very good but its hard to judge him in that league. Not many come over and stand out over here. Even less come over and hit the ground running. He could be the one though.

It may turn out to be a cheap deal but when you consider Digne had played at the very highest level, cost less in transfer fee and not that much more in wages (relatively speaking). 

This is a signing that Brands has had a big say in as he was scouted well before Benitez arrived according to reports.

I have had a little look at videos of him and I actually think he looks quite decent. In that league he looks pretty strong and quick. He has good size about him too. He has enough about him to beat a man at that level and he has the technique to whip in a decent enough cross too. I certainly think he is too good for that league but whether he does that in the Premier League I'm not so sure where players are stronger, quicker and smarter. It depends on how he adapts.

My one concern would be that I think he could end up seeing a few bookings whilst he settles in as he seems to like going off his feet. 

The league thing is confusing me slightly if your analogy of leagues and players is correct shouldn’t James be setting the world on fire In Qatar. 

[Wiggytop]

2 hours ago, Palfy said:

The league thing is confusing me slightly if your analogy of leagues and players is correct shouldn’t James be setting the world on fire In Qatar. 

If he could be arsed, then yes, but as we all know…….

[Matt]

20 hours ago, Bailey said:

Id also say £50k per week for the same league is a big gamble!

£50k in the Premier League is probably entry level for most clubs nowadays.

[Bailey]

21 hours ago, Palfy said:

The league thing is confusing me slightly if your analogy of leagues and players is correct shouldn’t James be setting the world on fire In Qatar. 

If he gave a shit then yes, like he did in the Premier League.

Do you think players doing well in one league at a lower level can translate the same level of form into a tougher league? 

18 hours ago, Matt said:

£50k in the Premier League is probably entry level for most clubs nowadays.

It depends where they come from. A quick look at Sportac for Leicester shows the following players were bought at less than £50k.

Fofana £19k

Tielemans £33k

Soyuncu £45k

Perez £45k

Looking at West Ham there is:

Benhrama £23k

Coufal £30k

(Unfortunately a lot of their other recent signings are unknown).

At Brighton only Lallana is reported to be on more than Mykolenko is going to be on.

At Wolves you have a raft of players including Neto, Neves, Traore & Jimenez that are on less. 

I actually find it a bit shocking how much we pay on wages compared to other clubs at our level!

[BedfordBlue]

2 hours ago, Bailey said:

If he gave a shit then yes, like he did in the Premier League.

Do you think players doing well in one league at a lower level can translate the same level of form into a tougher league? 

It depends where they come from. A quick look at Sportac for Leicester shows the following players were bought at less than £50k.

Fofana £19k

Tielemans £33k

Soyuncu £45k

Perez £45k

Looking at West Ham there is:

Benhrama £23k

Coufal £30k

(Unfortunately a lot of their other recent signings are unknown).

At Brighton only Lallana is reported to be on more than Mykolenko is going to be on.

At Wolves you have a raft of players including Neto, Neves, Traore & Jimenez that are on less. 

I actually find it a bit shocking how much we pay on wages compared to other clubs at our level!

But we are not trying to be at our level that's why we are paying more unfortunately we keep getting it wrong 

[Palfy]

2 hours ago, Bailey said:

If he gave a shit then yes, like he did in the Premier League.

Do you think players doing well in one league at a lower level can translate the same level of form into a tougher league? 

It depends where they come from. A quick look at Sportac for Leicester shows the following players were bought at less than £50k.

Fofana £19k

Tielemans £33k

Soyuncu £45k

Perez £45k

Looking at West Ham there is:

Benhrama £23k

Coufal £30k

(Unfortunately a lot of their other recent signings are unknown).

At Brighton only Lallana is reported to be on more than Mykolenko is going to be on.

At Wolves you have a raft of players including Neto, Neves, Traore & Jimenez that are on less. 

I actually find it a bit shocking how much we pay on wages compared to other clubs at our level!

No I don’t think all players that are doing well in lower leagues will replicate the same in a higher league, as not all players in highest leagues doing well will not always replicate the same form in lower leagues. Mykolenko has been looked at by a few clubs because he’s playing well fuck all to do with playing in a lower league and all to do with he has what it takes to be a very good player in any league, most players in higher leagues cut their teeth in lower teams or lower leagues, and the youngsters like him who show they have ability get snapped up by the better team’s in higher leagues, always has been that way and always will be, then they become the player you are only interested in buying 40 million and 140k a week, and still no guarantee they will be any good. Still don’t get your league thing?

[StevO]

58 minutes ago, Palfy said:

No I don’t think all players that are doing well in lower leagues will replicate the same in a higher league, as not all players in highest leagues doing well will not always replicate the same form in lower leagues. Mykolenko has been looked at by a few clubs because he’s playing well fuck all to do with playing in a lower league and all to do with he has what it takes to be a very good player in any league, most players in higher leagues cut their teeth in lower teams or lower leagues, and the youngsters like him who show they have ability get snapped up by the better team’s in higher leagues, always has been that way and always will be, then they become the player you are only interested in buying 40 million and 140k a week, and still no guarantee they will be any good. Still don’t get your league thing?

I think his “league thing” is that it’s a big risk buying players from a poor quality league for a lot of money. To be fair we’ve been burned with Biliyaletdinov (I’m positive I’ve not spelt that correctly) and Niasse who both didn’t cut it, so I get the concern. 
I hope we’ve unearthed a gem though, but for £20m (ish) he better be as we can’t afford the losses anymore. 
 

To add to this, we bought what was one of the best players in the Dutch league in Klassen and he was an absolute flop. But then Liverpool bought the best in the Dutch league in Suarez and he was unbelievable. It’s very tough to call. 

[Palfy]

29 minutes ago, StevO said:

I think his “league thing” is that it’s a big risk buying players from a poor quality league for a lot of money. To be fair we’ve been burned with Biliyaletdinov (I’m positive I’ve not spelt that correctly) and Niasse who both didn’t cut it, so I get the concern. 
I hope we’ve unearthed a gem though, but for £20m (ish) he better be as we can’t afford the losses anymore. 
 

To add to this, we bought what was one of the best players in the Dutch league in Klassen and he was an absolute flop. But then Liverpool bought the best in the Dutch league in Suarez and he was unbelievable. It’s very tough to call. 

We’ve also bought players who have performed in some of the best leagues in Europe and they haven’t performed for us, for me this isn’t a league issue it’s all about will the player fit into the team and the managers tactics not what league or where you come from. I’d like to think the way forward is to buy players with a plan no matter where they come from, the buying of the big names on big fees and even bigger wages has been our down fall. 

[Bailey]

2 hours ago, BedfordBlue said:

But we are not trying to be at our level that's why we are paying more unfortunately we keep getting it wrong 

Thats where we need to check ourselves. We aren't a fringe Europe side. We are mid table and all those sides around us are aiming higher too. We don't need to pay more than anyone else.

2 hours ago, Palfy said:

No I don’t think all players that are doing well in lower leagues will replicate the same in a higher league, as not all players in highest leagues doing well will not always replicate the same form in lower leagues. Mykolenko has been looked at by a few clubs because he’s playing well fuck all to do with playing in a lower league and all to do with he has what it takes to be a very good player in any league, most players in higher leagues cut their teeth in lower teams or lower leagues, and the youngsters like him who show they have ability get snapped up by the better team’s in higher leagues, always has been that way and always will be, then they become the player you are only interested in buying 40 million and 140k a week, and still no guarantee they will be any good. Still don’t get your league thing?

Lots of players in the Championship get bought for big fees and go nowhere. Then you get someone like Vardy who comes from nowhere to being an England player. The former is much more common than the latter. I agree that it should be based on the player and not everyone in a league should be tarnished with the same brush, but even if he is good enough for this league, he will have to be bloody good to be better than Digne and I expect he will take time to settle into this league. 

The league thing is that we have to be careful with our money and we are essentially swapping a French international who has been one of the best full backs in the league for the last few seasons to a complete unknown quality for what is reported to be not too dissimilar money. 

 

32 minutes ago, Palfy said:

We’ve also bought players who have performed in some of the best leagues in Europe and they haven’t performed for us, for me this isn’t a league issue it’s all about will the player fit into the team and the managers tactics not what league or where you come from. I’d like to think the way forward is to buy players with a plan no matter where they come from, the buying of the big names on big fees and even bigger wages has been our down fall. 

I am sure those big names also came with a plan too. If he doesnt cut the mustard, do you think he will be easy to sell on at almost £60k per week wages given what I have said about other sides in the league? Tosun, a proven Champions League and International goalscorer is on less and can't be sold on, albeit with a different age profile.

Lets just hope it works out so this conversation doesn't matter! 

[Romey 1878]

25 minutes ago, Bailey said:

I am sure those big names also came with a plan too. If he doesnt cut the mustard, do you think he will be easy to sell on at almost £60k per week wages given what I have said about other sides in the league? Tosun, a proven Champions League and International goalscorer is on less and can't be sold on, albeit with a different age profile.

Lets just hope it works out so this conversation doesn't matter! 

That is one of the concerns with this sort of signing. If it doesn’t work out the only place he’s going is back to the Ukrainian league and there’s no chance they’ll pay anywhere near £20m to take him back and we’ll be left with another Tosun situation.

But, this is the type of game we’re going to have to play - high risk with the potential for a high reward. We’re certainly looking at the right profile of player this window it seems and we just have to hope we can have more hits than misses.