Martinez won't last the season

[bluenosetoffee]

Anybody else glad we didn't go for Michael Laudrup now?

 

Kenwright knew what he was doing when hiring Martinez. With Michael Laudrup he had one good season at Swansea and this season has been sacked....I do think he should have been giving more time though. It is such a tight league at the moment Stoke are in 11th place and if all the teams below them win (unlikely I know). If they do then they could theoretically go into 18th place.... (If they lose by 4 goals or more) ;-)

 

I am glad we went for Martinez, when we were linked to him he was the only manager I really wanted. Only problem I had with him was that I thought he was to nice and wouldn't be able to get his team motivated....How wrong have I been so far....We have been down a handful of times this season Fulham, Norwich, West Ham, Villa etc and have come away with something.

[Guest Nikica]

Well I've been managing to hold out of this debate until now. The above comments are ludicrous! Moyes took our club and pulled it out of the dark ages. I remember being thrashed by Wimbledon just staying by the skin of our teeth in the league and never knowing where our next win would come from. Moyes on the whole did well in the transfer market and got us one top four finish. So there is my and others right to defend him. However, in the last couple of years I got annoyed with his tactical decisions and negativity and felt he should go. I also wasn't pleased in the manner he left, but if he hadn't gone we wouldn't now have Martinez so that's forgiven. I for one am a huge Martinez supporter as my dad is an avid Swansea fan and I stated he would be in my opinion the correct manager for everton as I saw first hand what he did at Swansea. (Check the Martinez thread). So in summary I'm really bored with this whole Martinez Moyes debate as I think everything has worked out for the best. Moyes deserves some credit for his 10 years and Martinez has me excited and thoughly enjoying my football. Happy Christmas!

 

Sorry mate, in retrospect I probably shouldn't be so forthright in my opinion on Everton matters when I'm not an Everton fan.

 

You essentially make fair points above - Moyes did get your club back going again (after Walter Smith, and as a Rangers fan he did well for us but he's a very negative manager who was exposed in the PL) but I felt about halfway through his tenure he had taken the club as far as possible and started lowering expectations to conceal his inability to progress further. In essence we agree for the most part.

 

I'm sorry if you feel I was being disrespectful - in future I will try to be more tactful with how I say things. I hope you had a nice Xmas and New Year too.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Nikica

[barryj]

 

Sorry mate, in retrospect I probably shouldn't be so forthright in my opinion on Everton matters when I'm not an Everton fan.

 

You essentially make fair points above - Moyes did get your club back going again (after Walter Smith, and as a Rangers fan he did well for us but he's a very negative manager who was exposed in the PL) but I felt about halfway through his tenure he had taken the club as far as possible and started lowering expectations to conceal his inability to progress further. In essence we agree for the most part.

 

I'm sorry if you feel I was being disrespectful - in future I will try to be more tactful with how I say things. I hope you had a nice Xmas and New Year too.

No worries! I had a great Christmas and good new year until we went to Anfield! Still things are looking brighter.

[Matt]

This thread makes me laugh and cringe at the same time every time it comes up....

[MC11]

Before we all get too carried away with Martinez, I'm waiting to see when the defensive change happens.

 

This defence was built under Moyes, a defensive tactician who got at least one thing right - his back four. Built on solid foundations for Martinez to add his attacking players and knowledge.

 

The big question mark over Martinez will be his ability to replace Moyes back four. If he does this with success then we have a real talent on our hands. However, previously we have seen his sides ship goals. Put it this way you wouldn't see a Moyes side go to Anfield and lose 4-0. On another night it could have been 8-0. A scoreline, that we have seen Martinez sides get beat (or close to).

 

For me this is the major question mark. Let's see who he replaced Distin and Jags with. So far his only defensive signing has a red flag waved over his head. No pace and always injured.

[Hafnia]

Before we all get too carried away with Martinez, I'm waiting to see when the defensive change happens.

 

This defence was built under Moyes, a defensive tactician who got at least one thing right - his back four. Built on solid foundations for Martinez to add his attacking players and knowledge.

 

The big question mark over Martinez will be his ability to replace Moyes back four. If he does this with success then we have a real talent on our hands. However, previously we have seen his sides ship goals. Put it this way you wouldn't see a Moyes side go to Anfield and lose 4-0. On another night it could have been 8-0. A scoreline, that we have seen Martinez sides get beat (or close to).

 

For me this is the major question mark. Let's see who he replaced Distin and Jags with. So far his only defensive signing has a red flag waved over his head. No pace and always injured.

 

 

I think far too much has been made of Martinez and his defence... its almost like every pundit subscribes to the "David Moyes being defensively sound". He will be seen as such as that is always his priority in getting results or draws.

 

The simple answer is money. You don't acquire centre halves like Jags, Distin, Heitinga for less than £20k a week... You get what you pay for. He actually did get decent defenders for his money at Wigan, they just weren't of the class that we can afford. Plus he had to make a choice:- try and concede less than the other team or try and score more - based on his players and his philosophy it was the latter. It was a choice that really nearly paid off, using a system that would reap wins or losses - he was able to take some big scalps against top opponents.

 

Martinez has a certain type of defender that he likes, a footballing defender, Moyes has his - which is a stopper who gets rid. Martinez uses his defenders to start attacks and retain possession - Moyes uses his to just stop the opposition and to get it aweay from our area.

 

I'm not saying that Martinez is going to turn Everton into the AC Milan team of the 90's - but i'm definately certain that he isn't going to turn us into Swindon in 1994.

 

The very fact that he retained Baines, tried to get Stones at Wigan and yes Alcaraz on a free shows he knows a defender. I'm not going to slate him for Alcaraz - injuries aside, on a free he is a very capable defender.

[bluenosetoffee]

Before we all get too carried away with Martinez, I'm waiting to see when the defensive change happens.

 

This defence was built under Moyes, a defensive tactician who got at least one thing right - his back four. Built on solid foundations for Martinez to add his attacking players and knowledge.

 

The big question mark over Martinez will be his ability to replace Moyes back four. If he does this with success then we have a real talent on our hands. However, previously we have seen his sides ship goals. Put it this way you wouldn't see a Moyes side go to Anfield and lose 4-0. On another night it could have been 8-0. A scoreline, that we have seen Martinez sides get beat (or close to).

 

For me this is the major question mark. Let's see who he replaced Distin and Jags with. So far his only defensive signing has a red flag waved over his head. No pace and always injured.

 

Stones is one for the future and Coleman is only 25 years old. So they're two defenders who won't need replacing quickly. We will have to wait and see on what he can do. At the moment though, like you say Moyes gave him the foundations. I do think now Martinez is at Everton he will be able to attract better players, he is doing a fantastic job. IF we get champions league football then I can see players being even more attracted to join everton. It will also be interesting to see what his scouts pick out as well. Exciting and nervous times ahead but one I am looking forward to.

 

About the 4-0 against Liverpool. He got his tactics wrong that's all. He played a high line and with Distin and Coleman out we had nobody who would track back in time. What I did admire about him is that he still went on the attack. (All we could do really). Yes we conceded that goal early in the second half, but we did look decent in the second period. I would rather Martinez attack and concede than Moyes putting on another defender just so they don't score anymore.

[Hafnia]

 

Stones is one for the future and Coleman is only 25 years old. So they're two defenders who won't need replacing quickly. We will have to wait and see on what he can do. At the moment though, like you say Moyes gave him the foundations. I do think now Martinez is at Everton he will be able to attract better players, he is doing a fantastic job. IF we get champions league football then I can see players being even more attracted to join everton. It will also be interesting to see what his scouts pick out as well. Exciting and nervous times ahead but one I am looking forward to.

 

About the 4-0 against Liverpool. He got his tactics wrong that's all. He played a high line and with Distin and Coleman out we had nobody who would track back in time. What I did admire about him is that he still went on the attack. (All we could do really). Yes we conceded that goal early in the second half, but we did look decent in the second period. I would rather Martinez attack and concede than Moyes putting on another defender just so they don't score anymore.

 

I find it difficult to believe that a manager with a footballing philosophy enabling his team to keep a clean sheet at wembley against Man City is a poor defensive manager because over a season his team leaked goals... it was down to personell - you replace Suarez and Sturridge at Liverpool with two budget forwards lets see how many goals they score....

 

The bloke knows his stuff, he is a quick learner and no doubt has watched the derby game 10 times to see what and why it went wrong.

[Cornish Steve]

I'm also in the camp that believes a strategy that means either a 4-0 loss, a 3-3 tie, or a 4-2 victory (predicting the FA Cup final!) is better than losing each of those games 1-0.

[Hafnia]

I'm also in the camp that believes a strategy that means either a 4-0 loss, a 3-3 tie, or a 4-2 victory (predicting the FA Cup final!) is better than losing each of those games 1-0.

 

Exactly.... the amount of Liverpool fans who said "you never lost 4-0 under Moyes" made me laugh. My response was we were a better 4-0 losing team than a 3-0 losing team.

[Newty82]

Hang on...surely you cant question Martinez defensively simply because he took over another managers back 4?! Thats so simplistic.

 

Its what you do with those players that counts. Martinez has them passing more, the full backs bombing forward and at that point the two CB's splitting and Barry sitting in if required (a tactic I notice liverpool now use Gerrard in!). On top of that...we have the third best defensive record in the league. I get the argument about lets see who he brings in himself, but that can be applied to any manager and any position, and could take years to prove...

 

Another simplistic argument is that the defensive maestro Moyes took over the league champions...how they getting on?!!

[MikeO]

Before we all get too carried away with Martinez, I'm waiting to see when the defensive change happens.

 

This defence was built under Moyes, a defensive tactician who got at least one thing right - his back four. Built on solid foundations for Martinez to add his attacking players and knowledge.

 

The big question mark over Martinez will be his ability to replace Moyes back four. If he does this with success then we have a real talent on our hands. However, previously we have seen his sides ship goals. Put it this way you wouldn't see a Moyes side go to Anfield and lose 4-0. On another night it could have been 8-0. A scoreline, that we have seen Martinez sides get beat (or close to).

 

For me this is the major question mark. Let's see who he replaced Distin and Jags with. So far his only defensive signing has a red flag waved over his head. No pace and always injured.

 

.....but we've seen a Moyes side ship six at home to Arsenal and seven away.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2554376/Roberto-Martinez-urges-Everton-think-damage-THEY-teams-vice-versa-reveals-Toffees-keeper-Tim-Howard.html

[Romey 1878]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2554376/Roberto-Martinez-urges-Everton-think-damage-THEY-teams-vice-versa-reveals-Toffees-keeper-Tim-Howard.html

 

A criticism I had of Moyes was that he clearly worried more about what the opposition were going to do to us rather than let our players worry the opposition with what we're capable of, so this makes me very happy.

[MC11]

.....but we've seen a Moyes side ship six at home to Arsenal and seven away.

Big difference IMO. A score reflecting that in any magnitude at a derby game would be disastourous. Plus the home tie was when a very popular and influential player had broken the dressing room. Sulking for a transfer away. Think the 7-0 I think was a cup game at highbury, against the invincibles.

[Hafnia]

 

A criticism I had of Moyes was that he clearly worried more about what the opposition were going to do to us rather than let our players worry the opposition with what we're capable of, so this makes me very happy.

I recall having mikel arteta in midfield against Blackpool and Moyes focussed on stopping Charlie Adam.... Then again maybe he needed to do that last week!

[Hafnia]

Big difference IMO. A score reflecting that in any magnitude at a derby game would be disastourous. Plus the home tie was when a very popular and influential player had broken the dressing room. Sulking for a transfer away. Think the 7-0 I think was a cup game at highbury, against the invincibles.

There's no excusing either game against arsenal, we sat back and let them have the ball, we tried to park the bus and got destroyed.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Wasnt the Arsenal hammering just after we had clinched 4th place and the players all went out and got rat arsed?

[Hafnia]

Wasnt the Arsenal hammering just after we had clinched 4th place and the players all went out and got rat arsed?

The 7-0 was. The 6-1 at home was first game of the season. we actually player without a striker that game...

[Cornish Steve]

I don't feel so bad today about the 4-0 loss. After all, we pulled two points back last weekend by winning while Liverpool could only draw. And today, with nowhere near the number of injuries we faced, Arsenal were losing 4-0 inside 20 minutes. We shouldn't get so hung up about big losses. They will always happen from time to time. What matters is how we respond to them.

[Guest Nikica]

 

A criticism I had of Moyes was that he clearly worried more about what the opposition were going to do to us rather than let our players worry the opposition with what we're capable of, so this makes me very happy.

 

Yes, he thinks of the opponents' weakness rather than his own strengths.

 

He plays Smalling over Rafael at RB against physical teams, to give his side more height at set-pieces, despite the fact Smalling is a rubbish RB. Bear in mind that set-pieces are a lesser part of the game than open play (although still important). Positive managers would play Rafael because going forward he's quite good (and far better than Smalling in that respect) so he'd help you win the game - Moyes's first thought is how to stop the opponent scoring.

 

I'm not saying he should be naive and not worry about the opponents at all - but he tries to win games by nullifying the opponent first and foremost. He's a percentage manager and, frankly, it's awful to watch for the most part.

 

As for the above debate - it's far better to lose 5-0 having given it a go than to lose 1-0 while trying to shut up shop and play damaged limitation. Goal difference coming into play at the end of the season isn't all that common (Agueroooooooooo apart). By give it a go I don't mean like Arsenal's gutless nonsense today, by the way.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Nikica

[efc1111]

THE NUMBERS GAME: Martinez has transformed dour Everton into tiki-taka wonders... but do they need some old Moyes steel to get Champions League football?

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2554539/The-Numbers-Game-Everton-transformed-Roberto-Martinez-need-David-Moyes-steel.html#

[MC11]

THE NUMBERS GAME: Martinez has transformed dour Everton into tiki-taka wonders... but do they need some old Moyes steel to get Champions League football? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2554539/The-Numbers-Game-Everton-transformed-Roberto-Martinez-need-David-Moyes-steel.html#

Notice Stones heat map stops at the edge of the 18 yard box. Hasn't a clue once he's there.

[Newty82]

Notice Stones heat map stops at the edge of the 18 yard box. Hasn't a clue once he's there.

Get off your high horse about the kid. We all agree he is gonna be a good future CB, but did ok filling in at RB when needed recently.

 

Good to see those stats too...no doubt a work in progress, but progress is good just now.

[MC11]

Get off your high horse about the kid. We all agree he is gonna be a good future CB, but did ok filling in at RB when needed recently.

Good to see those stats too...no doubt a work in progress, but progress is good just now.

My opinion on Stones is he shouldn't be anywhere near considered as our main backup for the RB position. That should be looked at! He proved he is absolutely terrible in forward positions. Considering this side relies on bombing full backs, I think it's a fair enough comment? Don't you?

 

To raise the issue of his age doesn't sit well for me (that seems to be the defence). Are we in the position of accepting mediocrity in the chase for 4th? He highlighted himself as poor in the opposing half. Passing backwards in advanced positions with our other players bombing into the box and looking for attacking opportunity.

 

He did ok but hindered our attack. Stick to centre back, as he seems very accomplished there.

Edited February 9, 2014 by MiguelCotto

[thoward18]

My opinion on Stones is he shouldn't be anywhere near considered as our main backup for the RB position. That should be looked at! He proved he is absolutely terrible in forward positions. Considering this side relies on bombing full backs, I think it's a fair enough comment? Don't you?

 

 

If the biggest complaint you have about an 18-year-old backup defender is "he's not good enough in the final third" then that means he's doing a hell of a lot right. Quite frankly, I'd much rather have a backup who does everything right defensively than a backup who makes 2 or 3 nice runs down the flank but then fucks up in his own penalty box. He's proved to be "absolutely terrible" in forward positions... as an 18-year-old. There's only one way for him to learn and get better, and that's by playing.

 

 

 

To raise the issue of his age doesn't sit well for me (that seems to be the defence). Are we in the position of accepting mediocrity in the chase for 4th? He highlighted himself as poor in the opposing half. Passing backwards in advanced positions with our other players bombing into the box and looking for attacking opportunity.

 

He did ok but hindered our attack. Stick to centre back, as he seems very accomplished there.

 

It has nothing to do with "accepting mediocrity" but instead everything to do with understanding the state of this club and looking through a lens that goes beyond this season. We're not Manchester City. We can't afford (literally) to have a bunch of Micah Richards' and James Milner's fucking around in reserves and getting on the pitch once in a while. Roberto Martinez does not have endless resources and therefore he needs to budget and prioritize. An old, injured Arouna Kone is the only striker under team control starting this summer. The team has two aging CBs and Alcaraz (if he can even get out of bed for matchday without injuring something). In the midfield, you have Barry and Pienaar in the final few years of being able to play at this level and who the hell knows how much longer Gibson can go without breaking down for good. A handful of pressing needs, and you want Martinez to throw money at a guy who will sit behind Seamus Coleman for the next 4-5 years aside from the handful of games he's needed?

 

Speaking of Coleman, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe he came to Everton immediately guns blazing. It took him some time to develop and grow as a player. Stones is even younger than Coleman was. Maybe Stones isn't the ideal fit right now, but if a few bumps in the road right now means he becomes he's a capable RB in the long run then I say it's well worth it. Certainly more worth it than paying a few million in transfer funds plus whatever the salary cost is for some guy who would play 3-4 games before sitting on the bench the rest of the way. If we get into the CL and get the resulting cash influx then, sure, we can start to bring in some luxury players. For now, Stones is doing just fine defensively at RB when he needs to fill in. It just means that Mirallas and/or McGeady need to step up and bring their A-games on the right side to make up for the missing attack.

[MC11]

If the biggest complaint you have about an 18-year-old backup defender is "he's not good enough in the final third" then that means he's doing a hell of a lot right. Quite frankly, I'd much rather have a backup who does everything right defensively than a backup who makes 2 or 3 nice runs down the flank but then fucks up in his own penalty box. He's proved to be "absolutely terrible" in forward positions... as an 18-year-old. There's only one way for him to learn and get better, and that's by playing.

 

 

 

It has nothing to do with "accepting mediocrity" but instead everything to do with understanding the state of this club and looking through a lens that goes beyond this season. We're not Manchester City. We can't afford (literally) to have a bunch of Micah Richards' and James Milner's fucking around in reserves and getting on the pitch once in a while. Roberto Martinez does not have endless resources and therefore he needs to budget and prioritize. An old, injured Arouna Kone is the only striker under team control starting this summer. The team has two aging CBs and Alcaraz (if he can even get out of bed for matchday without injuring something). In the midfield, you have Barry and Pienaar in the final few years of being able to play at this level and who the hell knows how much longer Gibson can go without breaking down for good. A handful of pressing needs, and you want Martinez to throw money at a guy who will sit behind Seamus Coleman for the next 4-5 years aside from the handful of games he's needed?

 

Speaking of Coleman, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe he came to Everton immediately guns blazing. It took him some time to develop and grow as a player. Stones is even younger than Coleman was. Maybe Stones isn't the ideal fit right now, but if a few bumps in the road right now means he becomes he's a capable RB in the long run then I say it's well worth it. Certainly more worth it than paying a few million in transfer funds plus whatever the salary cost is for some guy who would play 3-4 games before sitting on the bench the rest of the way. If we get into the CL and get the resulting cash influx then, sure, we can start to bring in some luxury players. For now, Stones is doing just fine defensively at RB when he needs to fill in. It just means that Mirallas and/or McGeady need to step up and bring their A-games on the right side to make up for the missing attack.

Stones is 20 in May. Not 18. Do your homework.

 

The point is he will never be a RB in a Martinez side. What got my back up about him was people saying he played well. He was absolute shite! in the derby and against Villa.

[Hafnia]

Stones is 20 in May. Not 18. Do your homework.

 

The point is he will never be a RB in a Martinez side. What got my back up about him was people saying he played well. He was absolute shite! in the derby and against Villa.

Blimey let it go... He is a young defender who was making his derby debut out of necessity in his second position. His senior team mates weren't exactly giving him the protection or comfort he needed to express himself.

 

Maybe the very fact we were getting smashed on the counter made him a little dubious about taking their man on?

 

Nah your right, let him follow the Shane Duffy wasted development careet path...

 

Blimey, you would think he was a £15m international signing the way you are going on.

[pete0]

Stones is 20 in May. Not 18. Do your homework.

 

The point is he will never be a RB in a Martinez side. What got my back up about him was people saying he played well. He was absolute shite! in the derby and against Villa.

No he wasn't, the guy to his left was dogshit though.

Edited February 9, 2014 by pete0

[Newty82]

He played well in the circumstances...as in, standing in for a position, or a role, that he doesnt usually play in. I think that was the angle peeps where trying to go at. Under the circumstances, he was/is possibly our next option after Coleman...possibly!!! Going forward, maybe not. Im sure RM would have liked to have another option (yes I know, Hibbert! Not for me, not how we play these days).

 

But anyway, let it go! You've made your point umpteen times. Some agree, some dont. You remind me of a good pal of mine...once ge gets a bee in his bonnet about something, he cant let it go and brings it up at any given opportunity! Ha!