Michael Keane

[Btay]

57 minutes ago, StevO said:

This season 1

20/21 - 0

19/20 - 0

18/19 - 1

17/18 - 0

 

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/error_lead_to_goal

Some interesting stats in there. Keane’s headed clearances are unbelievable too. Was looking at more but had my glasses stollen by a baby, very distracting. 

I think they only label and error leading to a goal as a very very clear cut error - ie Southampton this year. He makes so many though and just doesn’t deal with strikers well enough. Neil Maupay - who nearly every one turned their nose up at when we were linked with him gave him an absolute run around.

Headed clearances - one thing to win them but please try and watch how many uncontested headers he “wins” but just lobs 15 yards forward to their players instead of trying to find a man (like good center halves do in this league)

As for free pass mentioned earlier, people still clearly think he is an acceptable defender for us which clearly I just cannot understand. Secondly he gets a ride because his confidence must be low ( happens each season ). We need centre halves who dig in when things get tough, find that extra level and pull us through for results - he simply falls apart.

[Btay]

1 hour ago, Aidan said:

Two errors leading to a goal in his whole Premier League career according to the official Premier League website, I'm not sure who their stats are provided by though but I'd guess it's opta.

It shocked me, too.

Not sure about errors leading to a chance, can't find anything regarding that.

Well they have to be Southampton this year and Leicester the other year when he made his shit touch and vardy went in on goal. Problem is I can remember walking away from many, many games since he’s been here thinking he’s at fault for goals.

[StevO]

2 hours ago, badaids said:

Kudos for doing the research, but is it just me or are those stats bullshit, I can remember so many games where he had two!

It literally took a few seconds on the premier league website, and I put a link. 
 

As you can remember, which games did his errors lead to two goals and we can have a look?

[StevO]

1 hour ago, Btay said:

I think they only label and error leading to a goal as a very very clear cut error - ie Southampton this year. He makes so many though and just doesn’t deal with strikers well enough. Neil Maupay - who nearly every one turned their nose up at when we were linked with him gave him an absolute run around.

Headed clearances - one thing to win them but please try and watch how many uncontested headers he “wins” but just lobs 15 yards forward to their players instead of trying to find a man (like good center halves do in this league)

As for free pass mentioned earlier, people still clearly think he is an acceptable defender for us which clearly I just cannot understand. Secondly he gets a ride because his confidence must be low ( happens each season ). We need centre halves who dig in when things get tough, find that extra level and pull us through for results - he simply falls apart.

Wouldn’t disagree with that, but the buck needs to stop somewhere and using the premier leagues stats is going to be as close as possible to comparing apples to apples. So yes, an error could be made earlier in the play, but the stats guys will determine the error at some point (or possible not consider it a goal from an error) so all players will be judged equally. This isn’t to clear Keane from error, but look at some other players who have been judged by the same metrics. 
 

Errors leading to a goal in all the premier league games they have played;

Keane 2 from 204 appearances

Holgate 3 from 101 

Mina 2 from 73 

Godfrey 1 from 76

Duffy 1 from 110

Mings 4 from 103

Tarkowski 3 from 175

Coady 3 from 133

Van Dijk 3 from 180

Maguire 3 from 189

Zouma 2 from 176

Rudiger 1 from 119

Evans 5 from 335

Laporte 1 from 92

Stones 8 from 190

Ake 0 from 164 (we should have signed him)

Christianson 2 from 87

Lindelöf 2 from 124

There are some very high profile defenders in the Premier League who are getting punished for their mistakes more often than Keane, according to the Premier Leagues own figures. John Stones, wow, take a bow, that’s some serious fucking up there! I didn’t look into what teams he was playing for but probably us just with our luck. 
 

Keane is far from perfect, but mark my words, if Rafa brings in a Centre half it will be to partner Keane, not replace him. 

[Gwlad]

He's had brilliant games for us and been MOM.  agree he is a confidence player and is not the rock as centre back that a top team needs, never will be.

[Btay]

27 minutes ago, StevO said:

Wouldn’t disagree with that, but the buck needs to stop somewhere and using the premier leagues stats is going to be as close as possible to comparing apples to apples. So yes, an error could be made earlier in the play, but the stats guys will determine the error at some point (or possible not consider it a goal from an error) so all players will be judged equally. This isn’t to clear Keane from error, but look at some other players who have been judged by the same metrics. 
 

Errors leading to a goal in all the premier league games they have played;

Keane 2 from 204 appearances

Holgate 3 from 101 

Mina 2 from 73 

Godfrey 1 from 76

Duffy 1 from 110

Mings 4 from 103

Tarkowski 3 from 175

Coady 3 from 133

Van Dijk 3 from 180

Maguire 3 from 189

Zouma 2 from 176

Rudiger 1 from 119

Evans 5 from 335

Laporte 1 from 92

Stones 8 from 190

Ake 0 from 164 (we should have signed him)

Christianson 2 from 87

Lindelöf 2 from 124

There are some very high profile defenders in the Premier League who are getting punished for their mistakes more often than Keane, according to the Premier Leagues own figures. John Stones, wow, take a bow, that’s some serious fucking up there! I didn’t look into what teams he was playing for but probably us just with our luck. 
 

Keane is far from perfect, but mark my words, if Rafa brings in a Centre half it will be to partner Keane, not replace him. 

I agree with a lot of what you are saying here. I guess for me I’m at a point where I’d rather we move both Mina and Keane on and try find another solution that we can move forward with. 

[StevO]

55 minutes ago, Btay said:

I agree with a lot of what you are saying here. I guess for me I’m at a point where I’d rather we move both Mina and Keane on and try find another solution that we can move forward with. 

I think my main point is now that all of the defenders in the Premier League are shit anyway

[Bailey]

This is where you need to look at the manager because good systems make shit defenders look half decent. 

I struggle to comprehend how we can be a largely counter attacking team and still look all over the place at the back. 

[Wiggytop]

I hate stats, particularly all this xg stuff, you either score or you don’t. Same with mistakes, does Keanes awful clearance towards Gordon after Holgates last ditch challenge, which resulted on their 3rd goal count as an error? It does for me, if we had retained the ball they wouldn’t have had the chance. He’s clearly a confidence player and needs a solid consistent leader next to him to develop a strong partnership, and maybe then we might just collectively start heading clearances towards one of our own players rather than the opposition.

[barryj]

I like stats but interpretation is crucial. Also obviously individual stats are effected by other players on your team and the opposition. It’s all relative but used correctly they are very informative. 

[Bailey]

7 minutes ago, Wiggytop said:

I hate stats, particularly all this xg stuff, you either score or you don’t. Same with mistakes, does Keanes awful clearance towards Gordon after Holgates last ditch challenge, which resulted on their 3rd goal count as an error? It does for me, if we had retained the ball they wouldn’t have had the chance. He’s clearly a confidence player and needs a solid consistent leader next to him to develop a strong partnership, and maybe then we might just collectively start heading clearances towards one of our own players rather than the opposition.

I think Gordon should do better, he was ahead of Burns when the ball was played but the defender anticipates it better and unsurprisingly outmuscles him... does that error lead to the goal? No... does it contribute... yes. 

Why stop there too... why not go back to the awful defensive line and lack of pressure on the ball before that. They are all errors too IMO.

The reason why these stats give such low figures is because who is at fault for a goal is highly nuanced. Whilst people like things to be black and white they rarely are.

 

[Bailey]

I will just add that I think his play in the build up to that third goal is worse. Its like keystone cops. 

Keane gets caught too tight and is so easily spun by Maupay is horrific. Its like a speed boat vs the Titanic (post iceberg).

Godfrey on the other hand is sat too far off the man he decides to try and press. He would have been better off dropping off at that point as now him and Keane are up shits creek. 

Holgate who does do really well to get back is in a strange starting position. You see left backs in narrower defensive positions than him. In fact Kenny is probably narrower on the other side.

At least Holgate reacts though. Kenny is ball watching. In fact his reaction throughout is shocking. Keane and Godfrey are back before he is. Then he dives in during the aftermath and sells himself. 

All of this happens in split seconds and we dont see what they see when they make these decisions but it all just looks impulsive and that the players dont know the system or whatever the other players in the system are doing.

For example I can't imagine Keane would have rushed in the same way if he thought Godfrey would do the same after him. 

 

[AlbanyNYToffee]

13 hours ago, RPG said:

Our entire defence is either past it (Coleman), not good enough (Holgate, Kenny), sick note (Mina), wants to leave and has been bang out of form for 2 seasons (Digne) or inconsistent (Keane, Godfrey). Not all of that is 100% down to the individual players but much of it is and the sooner we can get 2 new cbs to play with Mykolenko and Patterson the better imho.

Agree with everything except Godfrey. I think he is the answer as the complimentary/#2 CB. We need a stud to pair with him. We missed out on Koulibaly 2-3 years ago. Everyone seems to be high on Botman (not seen him), and all the big boys are after Ginter since he's on a free but if we could sneak in there he could certainly be the answer. 

[Btay]

9 hours ago, AlbanyNYToffee said:

Agree with everything except Godfrey. I think he is the answer as the complimentary/#2 CB. We need a stud to pair with him. We missed out on Koulibaly 2-3 years ago. Everyone seems to be high on Botman (not seen him), and all the big boys are after Ginter since he's on a free but if we could sneak in there he could certainly be the answer. 

Agree - Romagnoli aswell from Ac Milan. Regards we need a calm presence in the back which I don’t think Keane, Mina, Godfrey or Holgate are. Branthwaite from the glimpse’s we have seen has that potential perhaps.

Also if we go big for a centre half they need to be English speaking otherwise there’s no point as our defenders needs a bit of guidance.

[RuffRob]

I think a lot of sloppy defending simply comes down to being able to use a consistent pairing at CB and equally with our backs. 

If we where able to put out the same back four for say 70% of the games I am fairly sure consistency and confidence would improve. 

 

[Romey 1878]

45 minutes ago, RuffRob said:

I think a lot of sloppy defending simply comes down to being able to use a consistent pairing at CB and equally with our backs. 

If we where able to put out the same back four for say 70% of the games I am fairly sure consistency and confidence would improve. 

 

I don't think it helps that our midfield offers very little protection for the defence and it's been that way for a long time. Teams walk right through the middle of us and it feels like our defence is under pressure all the time, and that cannot be good for them.

[Wiggytop]

40 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

I don't think it helps that our midfield offers very little protection for the defence and it's been that way for a long time. Teams walk right through the middle of us and it feels like our defence is under pressure all the time, and that cannot be good for them.

Spot on, and when it’s only a midfield of two the defence gets horribly exposed. 3 in midfield is a must IMO

[RuffRob]

1 hour ago, Romey 1878 said:

I don't think it helps that our midfield offers very little protection for the defence and it's been that way for a long time. Teams walk right through the middle of us and it feels like our defence is under pressure all the time, and that cannot be good for them.

I will not disagree with that, it's a combination of a fair few things. I am not mad on the balance of our midfield to be honest. I don't think Allan and Doucoure where that great a signing in all honesty. They are OK, relatively short term signings, but not great for taking the team forward. Given their ages you wouldn't want to be looking to building your team around either one of them.

I think we are defiantly missing a quality under 25 years old midfielder that the rest of the midfield could be built around. we need to be finding our own Smith Rowe, Odegaard, Coner Gallaghers or Billy Gilmours. Easier said than done, so would need a bit of solid investment. 

 

 

[Shukes]

I feel Keane won’t be with us much longer.

A Scot on one side and Ukranian on the other, he is gonna get bullied!

[RuffRob]

5 hours ago, RuffRob said:

I will not disagree with that, it's a combination of a fair few things. I am not mad on the balance of our midfield to be honest. I don't think Allan and Doucoure where that great a signing in all honesty. They are OK, relatively short term signings, but not great for taking the team forward. Given their ages you wouldn't want to be looking to building your team around either one of them.

I think we are defiantly missing a quality under 25 years old midfielder that the rest of the midfield could be built around. we need to be finding our own Smith Rowe, Odegaard, Coner Gallaghers or Billy Gilmours. Easier said than done, so would need a bit of solid investment. 

 

 

https://www.goodisonnews.com/2022/01/05/everton-join-the-race-to-sign-bruno-guimaraes/

and this would be just the kind of player to build a midfield around.

[Btay]

Surely people are waking up to him now. Not only was the first goal a complete shit show but he doesn’t take control for the second. Godfrey has his back to runners inside and calls him across to Puki - Keane could see the whole play and needed to tell Godfrey to take puki and let Gordon deal with Williams. Instead he ends up in Keane island doing nothing and it’s an easy finish. 

[Shukes]

Keane would be good alongside a real leader. When he is in the position of the main central defender we are in trouble as he is to quiet and lightweight.

[London Blue]

As people have said Keane is a good defender, but mentally he is not a leader. He needs a leader or more hopefully a vicious bastard next to him to get the best out of him. He is a good no two, but not a no one center back.

[Shukes]

I want to see more of Branthwaite once he’s back. He looked a tough lad. Not the answer as he is young, but looks promising.

[Aidan]

I can't see how he is a good defender. He's an average defender in the grand scheme of things but his head is up his arse more often than its in the game. He has far more spells of self capitulation then he does of actually looking like a quality defender. We can't afford players like that we need consistency especially in his position.

[Matt]

I don't think he did much wrong for either goal to be honest. First is unlucky and if he leaves it he'd be slated for not clearing the lines. Second, if he doesn't close the man he's leaving their central attacker open. LB should be covering him when he goes to cover Godrey. 

All that said, he certainly needs dropping for a bit. He can be a good defender but he's not a scrapper. 

 

[StevO]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

I don't think he did much wrong for either goal to be honest. First is unlucky and if he leaves it he'd be slated for not clearing the lines. Second, if he doesn't close the man he's leaving their central attacker open. LB should be covering him when he goes to cover Godrey. 

All that said, he certainly needs dropping for a bit. He can be a good defender but he's not a scrapper. 

 

Just play Holgate for a few weeks instead of him, we’ll soon want him back in the team. 

[Bailey]

11 hours ago, Btay said:

Surely people are waking up to him now. Not only was the first goal a complete shit show but he doesn’t take control for the second. Godfrey has his back to runners inside and calls him across to Puki - Keane could see the whole play and needed to tell Godfrey to take puki and let Gordon deal with Williams. Instead he ends up in Keane island doing nothing and it’s an easy finish. 

As I have said elsewhere, the first is a massive shitshow for several reasons for which Keane bears the brunt because he was the one that put the ball in the back of the net. What else do you want him to do in that situation, leave the ball completely?

I do think there wasnt much communication between Godfrey and Keane but Godfrey knows what is going on and Keane can only react. I don't really blame Godfrey either, against the counter its hard. Decisions need to be made in split seconds. Blame for that goal lies squarely at the feet of Coleman / Gordon who messed up what should have been a simple pass and move. 

[Matt]

Just now, StevO said:

Just play Holgate for a few weeks instead of him, we’ll soon want him back in the team. 

Holgate or Branthwaite, preferably the latter, but he needs out of the squad for a bit. Same as Coleman, neither are bad players but they're not good when we are where we are now. 

[MC11]

Another who needs to go, him and Godfrey as a partnership is shambolic