Marcel Brands (DoF)

[Bailey]

For those that think Gomes will come good in the right conditions, do you not worry that there has to be a lot of conditions for that to happen for such a top player? 

Sooner or later he will need the wind coming from the east and for it to be between 15 and 20 degrees to be at his best. 

[StevO]

Always feels a bit uncomfortable when we talk about mentality issues with someone we know has had mental health problems in the past. Feels like too much of an easy angle to go for when he’s not playing well. 

[markjazzbassist]

42 minutes ago, StevO said:

Always feels a bit uncomfortable when we talk about mentality issues with someone we know has had mental health problems in the past. Feels like too much of an easy angle to go for when he’s not playing well. 

Agreed.  It’s also stupid when we now the issue was his partner and not necessarily him.  But people keep beating that dead horse.  I give up

[Shukes]

I don’t think people mean that guys. I think they are talking about him being a confidence player and his form suffers badly when he isn’t feeling confident. 
I honestly don’t think anyone is talking about those issues.

[Aidan]

1 hour ago, Shukes said:

I don’t think people mean that guys. I think they are talking about him being a confidence player and his form suffers badly when he isn’t feeling confident. 
I honestly don’t think anyone is talking about those issues.

Spot on. It's how we react to it as a fan base (more so in the crowd on a match day which might not be any time soon). We need to be roaring everytime he plays a successful cross field pass just to show him love. Unfortunatly a lot of us have thin patience with confidence players, myself included.

[StevO]

1 hour ago, Shukes said:

I don’t think people mean that guys. I think they are talking about him being a confidence player and his form suffers badly when he isn’t feeling confident. 
I honestly don’t think anyone is talking about those issues.

I’m not saying anyone means that. But if we didn’t know he had previously had mental health issues would we still be thinking it’s a mentality thing? 
My point being; we know Gomes has had mental health issues in the past, and we say he’s got mentality issues and confidence issues when he’s not playing well. No one has said that Gylfi, Davies, Iwobi, Walcott, Delph, Schneiderlin has mentality issues when they have been playing badly. It’s as much what’s not said about others as what’s said about him. 
 

It just doesn’t sit right with me. I’m honestly expecting to hear things about Bernard and Keane over the next 12 months too, but I hope I’m wrong. 

[Aidan]

44 minutes ago, StevO said:

No one has said that Gylfi, Davies, Iwobi, Walcott, Delph, Schneiderlin has mentality issues when they have been playing badly. It’s as much what’s not said about others as what’s said about him. 

I think the point is Gomes has had his confidence shattered at Barca, the crowed literally hated the man. He's come here and shown us what he is capable of in glimpses. Those you've mentioned don't seem to have had a similar experience to the extent that Gomes has (from the top of my head).

[StevO]

31 minutes ago, Aidan said:

I think the point is Gomes has had his confidence shattered at Barca, the crowed literally hated the man. He's come here and shown us what he is capable of in glimpses. Those you've mentioned don't seem to have had a similar experience to the extent that Gomes has (from the top of my head).

He also had mental health issues during that time at Barca. 
My point is that we don’t know his mentality or his confidence, the same as we don’t with the other players ive mentioned. But he gets labelled as being mentally not up to it, but none of the others do. 
Don’t want to argue over it, it just makes me feel very uncomfortable to see someone who has a history of mental health issues being labelled as mentally not good enough or supposedly having a confidence problem. Where the same doesn’t get thrown at others. Not just here either, I’ve seen it plenty on social media too. Just doesn’t sit right with me. 

[Aidan]

13 minutes ago, StevO said:

He also had mental health issues during that time at Barca. 
My point is that we don’t know his mentality or his confidence, the same as we don’t with the other players ive mentioned. But he gets labelled as being mentally not up to it, but none of the others do. 
Don’t want to argue over it, it just makes me feel very uncomfortable to see someone who has a history of mental health issues being labelled as mentally not good enough or supposedly having a confidence problem. Where the same doesn’t get thrown at others. Not just here either, I’ve seen it plenty on social media too. Just doesn’t sit right with me. 

I think fans are okay with being able to label a player as a confidence player - nobody specifically mentioned his mental health apart from you.

[StevO]

8 minutes ago, Aidan said:

I think fans are okay with being able to label a player as a confidence player - nobody specifically mentioned his mental health apart from you.

I’m not saying people are mentioning his mental health, but plenty have mentioned his mentality. My comments all through this were would his mentality he brought into question if we didn’t know about his previous mental health issues. Not every negative comment about him has been about his confidence. He hasn’t just been labelled a confidence player (and I’ve no issue with that at all) but being labelled mentally not good enough in many comments on here and other areas of social media. 
Maybe you don’t understand my point and that’s fine. I’m just asking the question as I find it very uncomfortable that a person with mental health issues has his mentality questioned. (Not his confidence). 

[Aidan]

6 minutes ago, StevO said:

I’m not saying people are mentioning his mental health, but plenty have mentioned his mentality. My comments all through this were would his mentality he brought into question if we didn’t know about his previous mental health issues. Not every negative comment about him has been about his confidence. He hasn’t just been labelled a confidence player (and I’ve no issue with that at all) but being labelled mentally not good enough in many comments on here and other areas of social media. 
Maybe you don’t understand my point and that’s fine. I’m just asking the question as I find it very uncomfortable that a person with mental health issues has his mentality questioned. (Not his confidence). 

I think we were making two different points thats all mate. I think poeple would have questioned his mentality regardless of his mental health issues, fans did the same with Barkley for example.

[Shukes]

To be honest I think mentality comes up a lot on this forum, Barkley springs to mind. 
Having the right mentality is a trait we look for as fans, especially for Everton. 
 

It has nothing to do with mental health. I have to have the right mentality for my job, and I see many people that don’t. Mentality and mental health issues are two completely different subjects, for me at least. Others might see it differently, but for me his mental health issues are are nothing to judge his ability as a footballer over.

 

Edit: Just noticed Aidens post above.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Shukes

[StevO]

I agree with both of you (Shukes and Aidan). I agree that mentality and mental health are 100% two different things. I just see more of players with mental health issues having their mentality questioned more. And not just our players and not just on here.

As I said, I’m just asking does it get brought up more with players who have spoken about mental health? It feels to me like it does and it makes me uncomfortable. 
Then we have other players who, to me, look no different to Gomes and their mentality doesn’t get brought into question. 

[Shukes]

3 hours ago, StevO said:

I agree with both of you (Shukes and Aidan). I agree that mentality and mental health are 100% two different things. I just see more of players with mental health issues having their mentality questioned more. And not just our players and not just on here.

As I said, I’m just asking does it get brought up more with players who have spoken about mental health? It feels to me like it does and it makes me uncomfortable. 
Then we have other players who, to me, look no different to Gomes and their mentality doesn’t get brought into question. 

I think we see those other players as just shit haha!

No I do see what you mean. It may even be a subconscious link we don’t realise we are making. Knowing history about people can sometimes slightly alter the judgements you make.

I know just personally, when I mention mentality, I am talking about players aggressiveness and self motivation. An example would be Keanes soft approach mentality. For me he needs to impose himself more, and this is tough because that’s not his natural mentality. 
 

Im talking about mentality to my eight year old at the moment (think that’s too far?), as he has more talent at 8 than I had at 20. His only weakness at the moment is he is extremely quiet on the pitch, and I’m trying to get him to be a little more aggressive, shoot like you want to rip the net apart, go into every tackle like you are going to win it,  be a leader on the pitch.

[StevO]

I don’t disagree mate. 
 

That’s some good info for a young footballer, a lot of things we see missing from pros at the moment. 

[Shukes]

2 minutes ago, StevO said:

I don’t disagree mate. 
 

That’s some good info for a young footballer, a lot of things we see missing from pros at the moment. 

Thank you, I’m kind of stuck at the moment as I know he is so young and don’t want to push him, but want to make sure I give him the support.... it’s hard to know where that line is sometimes, if that makes sense.

[Gwlad]

Let's not forget that many footballers are away from their homeland and like all of us are concerned for family at this unpredictable time. Also playing in an empty stadium must feel very alien without fan noise.

[Bailey]

14 hours ago, StevO said:

I’m not saying anyone means that. But if we didn’t know he had previously had mental health issues would we still be thinking it’s a mentality thing? 
My point being; we know Gomes has had mental health issues in the past, and we say he’s got mentality issues and confidence issues when he’s not playing well. No one has said that Gylfi, Davies, Iwobi, Walcott, Delph, Schneiderlin has mentality issues when they have been playing badly. It’s as much what’s not said about others as what’s said about him. 
 

It just doesn’t sit right with me. I’m honestly expecting to hear things about Bernard and Keane over the next 12 months too, but I hope I’m wrong. 

For me its not confidence with Gomes its more concentration. There are just days where he doesn't get off the coach and then other days he looks like a world beater.

With the other players you mentioned I think there is a difference but at the same time, they have been questioned in respects of their mentality. Gylfi has been called a fair few names for pulling out of tackles and not doing enough, Schneiderlin is the same and I called him a fair few myself a couple of seasons ago because of his disgusting attitude on the pitch. I personally have also questioned Walcott's football intelligence more than his attitude because in my opinion with him its the decisions he makes more than the effort he puts in. Delph falls into a similar category because he will make some really stupid decisions, despite playing well enough throughout the game.

The biggest difference can probably be seen when comparing Davies and Gomes. When Davies plays well its a surprise because we know he isn't that good. Gomes was one of the hottest properties in world football and we have seen moments of excellence in a blue shirt. He has the ability to be one of the better players in the league but and there are too many occasions where he doesn't show up. In my experience, when that happens its because there is something inside the players head that isn't working as it should. In some footballers we have seen it in poor preparation and some footballers are just stupid (Balotelli). I don't think they apply to Gomes. A bit like Ronnie O'Sullivan, there are times when Gomes just doesn't seem to turn up.

The question with Gomes is whether the football related mental issues have started since his issues at Barcelona or whether they are part of a deep seeded problem that has been lying under the surface and have only come to light following his stint there. I find it hard to believe that any footballer playing at this level has not experienced some level of rejection or self doubt throughout their careers. Gomes was a real talent though and he was probably going from strength to strength that when it did happen, its hit him for six. Something I fear may also be the case with Pickford. it is something you see in boxing quite a lot too. A young fighter comes through the ranks knocking people out left, right and centre and then they end up on the canvas themselves and you don't see them again, or at least anywhere near the level they were.

From a personal point of view, I didn't realise quite the extent of his troubles until I searched him after your initial post on these comments. It sounds like that failure at Barcelona really hit him hard. I think it is testament to him that he has come back so quickly from his injury. It says to me that in general terms, his mind is in a much happier place as someone who didn't want to be out there would have dragged it out.

[Cisk]

Anyone starting to feel a bit Meh with all these rumours of players we are 'interested' in? I'm sure alot are bullsh$t but change the record or turn to page 2 of our list because it's the same names keep coming up that we are supposedly after, window after window.

I'm not seeing any Ancelloti influence here apart from the 2 from Napoli.

I'd love to be shown wrong and we get 2 or 3 new names we've not been informed of yet but I seem to remember most of the signings made by Brands to date have all been in the press for weeks before we sign them - hardly any real secretive behind the scenes stuff been going on.

[Shukes]

26 minutes ago, Cisk said:

Anyone starting to feel a bit Meh with all these rumours of players we are 'interested' in? I'm sure alot are bullsh$t but change the record or turn to page 2 of our list because it's the same names keep coming up that we are supposedly after, window after window.

I'm not seeing any Ancelloti influence here apart from the 2 from Napoli.

I'd love to be shown wrong and we get 2 or 3 new names we've not been informed of yet but I seem to remember most of the signings made by Brands to date have all been in the press for weeks before we sign them - hardly any real secretive behind the scenes stuff been going on.

It’s almost like we get our targets from the press. They keep mentioning them, so we eventually go for them haha.

[StevO]

2 hours ago, Bailey said:

For me its not confidence with Gomes its more concentration. There are just days where he doesn't get off the coach and then other days he looks like a world beater.

With the other players you mentioned I think there is a difference but at the same time, they have been questioned in respects of their mentality. Gylfi has been called a fair few names for pulling out of tackles and not doing enough, Schneiderlin is the same and I called him a fair few myself a couple of seasons ago because of his disgusting attitude on the pitch. I personally have also questioned Walcott's football intelligence more than his attitude because in my opinion with him its the decisions he makes more than the effort he puts in. Delph falls into a similar category because he will make some really stupid decisions, despite playing well enough throughout the game.

The biggest difference can probably be seen when comparing Davies and Gomes. When Davies plays well its a surprise because we know he isn't that good. Gomes was one of the hottest properties in world football and we have seen moments of excellence in a blue shirt. He has the ability to be one of the better players in the league but and there are too many occasions where he doesn't show up. In my experience, when that happens its because there is something inside the players head that isn't working as it should. In some footballers we have seen it in poor preparation and some footballers are just stupid (Balotelli). I don't think they apply to Gomes. A bit like Ronnie O'Sullivan, there are times when Gomes just doesn't seem to turn up.

The question with Gomes is whether the football related mental issues have started since his issues at Barcelona or whether they are part of a deep seeded problem that has been lying under the surface and have only come to light following his stint there. I find it hard to believe that any footballer playing at this level has not experienced some level of rejection or self doubt throughout their careers. Gomes was a real talent though and he was probably going from strength to strength that when it did happen, its hit him for six. Something I fear may also be the case with Pickford. it is something you see in boxing quite a lot too. A young fighter comes through the ranks knocking people out left, right and centre and then they end up on the canvas themselves and you don't see them again, or at least anywhere near the level they were.

From a personal point of view, I didn't realise quite the extent of his troubles until I searched him after your initial post on these comments. It sounds like that failure at Barcelona really hit him hard. I think it is testament to him that he has come back so quickly from his injury. It says to me that in general terms, his mind is in a much happier place as someone who didn't want to be out there would have dragged it out.

Great post!

[Aidan]

9 hours ago, Shukes said:

Im talking about mentality to my eight year old at the moment (think that’s too far?), as he has more talent at 8 than I had at 20. His only weakness at the moment is he is extremely quiet on the pitch, and I’m trying to get him to be a little more aggressive, shoot like you want to rip the net apart, go into every tackle like you are going to win it,  be a leader on the pitch.

Can he do a decent job at CM by any chance? Or for that matter RB, LW, RW or in net? 

[Makis]

13 hours ago, Shukes said:

It’s almost like we get our targets from the press. They keep mentioning them, so we eventually go for them haha.

Or maybe we shouldn't believe every rumour in the media?

[Shukes]

1 hour ago, Makis said:

Or maybe we shouldn't believe every rumour in the media?

That is true, though I think if there wasn’t Everton rumours..... spurs would never buy anyone!

[Cisk]

On 20/08/2020 at 08:21, Shukes said:

That is true, though I think if there wasn’t Everton rumours..... spurs would never buy anyone!

Or West Ham.....

 

Or Napoli now going all continental!!

[Shukes]

2 hours ago, Cisk said:

Or West Ham.....

 

Or Napoli now going all continental!!

Oohhh your so cultured you!

[AlbanyNYToffee]

As impressed as I am with the quality of the signings, I'm equally if not more impressed by the contracts. It seems like for far far too long it was 'you're a new signing here's a 5 yr deal'. Never understood that the club takes on all of the risk.  

Allan is 29 and his three year deal takes him to 32. James is 29 and his 2 year deal with an option takes him to 31/32. Doucoure is 27 and his 3 year deal with an option takes him to 30/31. 

If it's working out great sign him up to an extension and if it's not you don't get stuck with Martina/Niasse/Gylfi/Bolasie/Besic/Tosun. 

[StevO]

I agree, it’s good seeing all of these club extension options. Learning from the mistakes made over the last few years. 

[Bailey]

Couldn't agree more myself. 

[markjazzbassist]

7 hours ago, AlbanyNYToffee said:

As impressed as I am with the quality of the signings, I'm equally if not more impressed by the contracts. It seems like for far far too long it was 'you're a new signing here's a 5 yr deal'. Never understood that the club takes on all of the risk.  

Allan is 29 and his three year deal takes him to 32. James is 29 and his 2 year deal with an option takes him to 31/32. Doucoure is 27 and his 3 year deal with an option takes him to 30/31. 

If it's working out great sign him up to an extension and if it's not you don't get stuck with Martina/Niasse/Gylfi/Bolasie/Besic/Tosun. 

Yeah I saw that too and was shocked. Brands showing in that alone he is way better than 5 year 150k Walsh.