James Tarkowski

[Shukes]

Keane is consistent in the air. He simply needs a leader alongside him and he will look much better. He is good at both ends of the field in the air. 

[Palfy]

I think he’s as good as anyone in both boxes, he’s very poor at 30yrds plus out being forced to run back to his own goal, for 2 reasons obvious one is his lack of pace and the other is he’s to honest or to nice, he needs to learn when to bring a player down the professional foul if you like. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Maybe he just needs new footie boots?

 

[Hafnia]

2 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Maybe he just needs new footie boots?

 

Shilton wore those in 1986 and 1990

[Bailey]

13 hours ago, Hafnia said:

first off - all this stems from your weird defence of Michael Keane, once upon a time you nailed your colours to his mast and no matter of own goals or red cards managed you to make you change your view on him.  Lets hope Frank doesn't play Godfrey as a DM and he does well in the role....  I think your ego would melt.

So you have made the assertion that defenders from lesser team get higher stats cos they get more chance to defend?  That would be the logical assumption wouldn't it?  a bit like strikers from better teams score more goals generally.... unless you get the occasional outlier - in which case they then usually get bought by a better team (hint to what usually happens with defenders)

 

Blocks: - Craig Dawson 2nd for a team that finished 7th, coady 4th for a team that finished 10th

Interceptions:- Cancelo 5th - for the team that won the prem

Clearances off line:- Thiago silva and Connor Coady ahead of tarkowsi  (Chelsea wolves)

Last man tackles: - not one player from bottom half in top 5 - be due to high line defending

Clearance:- this is heavily weighted to lower team as it is the act of kicking away with no intended recipient

Headed clearance - Eric dier 4th playing for 4th placed team but generally its lower teams with higher numbers

aerial battles won:- 2 liverpool players in top 5 - as already stated there are opportunities for this stat with better teams players as they get the opportunity for this with every goal kick from opponents which derives from their own teams attacking prowess

% of battles is more indicative when you strip out the lower volume players, tarkowski is in and around VVD, Matip, lascelles with his numbers as the best.....  

 

so there you have it, a balanced view of the stats that you are saying benefit lower teams players - the answer is "yes they do, and no they dont".  You are using that to discredit tarkwoski and the answer to that is nonsense.  There will be some pretty poor players with good stats in certain areas, lets be honest Keane is not a reliable centre half but based on his headed numbers alone you would say he is strong.  Its only when you get the mix to see who is rounded and that is where you see why tarjowski ticks boxes.  Above all its intangibles that tick the boxes for me - he's got bottle and is up for the fight.

No doubt you will spend the season telling us how tarkowski was at fault for a goals that people were blaming Keane for due to some super insightful fifa pro license insight.

p.s I do get it mate, I’ve worked with data insights for the past 15+ years and report to executives to drive decisions based on data.   I’m fully aware that data can be manipulated to justify a view. Your view that tarkowski stats are good because he played for a team of a certain style/position isn’t correct. There will be factors that support it but the view is flawed as evidence by the presence of players of certain clubs. 
 

but as I say, the forum is on a hiding to nothing now, you are gonna bore the crap out of match forums when an opportunity for confirmation bias arises. You have gone in heavy early doors as always, when most including myself are optimistic and behind the player. 

 

You completely misunderstand my view, which isnt a surprise because you almost always do. You also then go on to parrot the same nonsense time and time again, even when I have said something different. 

Just because I can see why Keane might have been unfortunate in a certain set of circumstances, does not mean I think he is  a quality defender. Please find any evidence you can of me saying how much I like Keane. You wont find it. He has his qualities and he has his frailties. 

I also havent said Tarkowski is crap or wont do well here. I have stated that relying on the stats is misleading. Lots of people, have said he is one of the best in the air, but by the very same analysis of the stats he is one of the worst in the air too. The truth is, he played for a team that has a lot of aerial battles and that is it. Do you accept that? If not, why not?

Congratulations on your data insights and what you have done as a job but with all due respect I couldnt give a shit. It doesnt make your opinion any more or less valid than anyone elses. 

My opinion, not that it matters to you becuase no doubt you will completely misrepresent it, is that the signing of Tarkowski will be risk to any team that dont play like Burnley do. I have given examples of games with Burnley and games with England that might show why that might be less or more of a risk. 

If we play in the style I would typically associate with Lampard, I suspect that it will pose a much bigger challenge to Tarkowski than he has ever faced in his career so far and I dont know how he will cope with that. 

[Hafnia]

14 hours ago, Bailey said:

You completely misunderstand my view, which isnt a surprise because you almost always do. You also then go on to parrot the same nonsense time and time again, even when I have said something different. 

Just because I can see why Keane might have been unfortunate in a certain set of circumstances, does not mean I think he is  a quality defender. Please find any evidence you can of me saying how much I like Keane. You wont find it. He has his qualities and he has his frailties. 

I also havent said Tarkowski is crap or wont do well here. I have stated that relying on the stats is misleading. Lots of people, have said he is one of the best in the air, but by the very same analysis of the stats he is one of the worst in the air too. The truth is, he played for a team that has a lot of aerial battles and that is it. Do you accept that? If not, why not?

Congratulations on your data insights and what you have done as a job but with all due respect I couldnt give a shit. It doesnt make your opinion any more or less valid than anyone elses. 

My opinion, not that it matters to you becuase no doubt you will completely misrepresent it, is that the signing of Tarkowski will be risk to any team that dont play like Burnley do. I have given examples of games with Burnley and games with England that might show why that might be less or more of a risk. 

If we play in the style I would typically associate with Lampard, I suspect that it will pose a much bigger challenge to Tarkowski than he has ever faced in his career so far and I dont know how he will cope with that. 

You view was, free transfers aren’t technically free, maybe ok if we play a low block and his stats aren’t anything to get excited about cos average  players in crap teams have good stats.  Basically.

my response and most other peoples response has been :- great signing, a free transfer, leader, good in the air, puts his body on the line, strong stats in all defensive areas, with no money it’s a shrewd signing.  You know…. Optimism….

you haven’t given me any players who top the lists strongly in the combination of areas like tarkowski…….  For example we know Keane is good in the air, and not very good at pretty much everything else … and low and behold he only shows strongly in that one area really.  Which correlates with anecdotal views of him.   I’m pretty sure likewise is said about most of the other average defenders in their supposed strong points…. The point is - tarkowski shows strongly in more than one area. How many defenders are in the top 10 for more than 2 or indeed one attribute? 
 

You judged mykolenko early and your confirmation bias was in full evidence in the game vs man United, for someone who supposedly analyses defensive actions you were miles out.  You had Ashley Cole as being unlikely to be a good coach based on punditry???….. seems to have done great work with mykolenko doesn’t he. 
 

as for your aerial battles lost…. He was 4th wasn’t he?  Yep. That’s absolutely fine so let’s put that into perspective,  his percentage aerial duels won is above 70% - no player has his volume and is above 70%. Vvd is slightly higher % wise and has less volume, tops the list but has half the volume which gives % a greater volatility. 

[SpartyBlue]

Impressed with him in this pre-season game. He just gets it. Good timing, knows how to put a player off balance, knows when to step up. Not gonna be a world beater probably but he’s like having Gareth Barry at CB. Just a professional.

[Romey 1878]

1 minute ago, SpartyBlue said:

Impressed with him in this pre-season game. He just gets it. Good timing, knows how to put a player off balance, knows when to step up. Not gonna be a world beater probably but he’s like having Gareth Barry at CB. Just a professional.

The defence has looked a lot more solid this half. Godfrey, Holgate and Mina were terrible in that first half, but Keane, Tawkowski and, to a lesser extent, Welch look better.

If we stay with three CB's then there's one spot left for someone to take because I don't see past Keane and Tarkowski. If it's a two then the others will just have to bide their time.

[SpartyBlue]

7 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

The defence has looked a lot more solid this half. Godfrey, Holgate and Mina were terrible in that first half, but Keane, Tawkowski and, to a lesser extent, Welch look better.

If we stay with three CB's then there's one spot left for someone to take because I don't see past Keane and Tarkowski. If it's a two then the others will just have to bide their time.

Are we assuming Mina leaves? It’ll be nice to have some depth there anyways. Godfrey has a ton of upside so I’d like to see him in there some. Assuming Mina is sold I’d probably start with the old Burnley pair and work Godfrey in. Holgate as cover. 

[Romey 1878]

1 minute ago, SpartyBlue said:

Are we assuming Mina leaves? It’ll be nice to have some depth there anyways. Godfrey has a ton of upside so I’d like to see him in there some. Assuming Mina is sold I’d probably start with the old Burnley pair and work Godfrey in. Holgate as cover. 

i hope so but that's not what I was alluding to. If Mina's still here then he'll have to earn that third spot, and if it's only a 2 in a back four then I don't see him getting in ahead of Keane or Tarkowski tbh. Then you have to account for him missing a big chunk of playing time as well.

[SpartyBlue]

5 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

i hope so but that's not what I was alluding to. If Mina's still here then he'll have to earn that third spot, and if it's only a 2 in a back four then I don't see him getting in ahead of Keane or Tarkowski tbh. Then you have to account for him missing a big chunk of playing time as well.

When he’s played I think he’s been our best defender the last couple of seasons. That’s why I mentioned it. Obviously the salary and injury history work against him.

[Romey 1878]

2 minutes ago, SpartyBlue said:

When he’s played I think he’s been our best defender the last couple of seasons. That’s why I mentioned it. Obviously the salary and injury history work against him.

I don't agree on the first point, but even taking that out he cannot be seen as a first choice defender for us because you just can't depend on him to be there and you need stability in the defence.

[SpartyBlue]

3 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

I don't agree on the first point, but even taking that out he cannot be seen as a first choice defender for us because you just can't depend on him to be there and you need stability in the defence.

I take your point but if he’s here and healthy and the best option he’s going to play until he breaks. I would be surprised if he’s here though.

[Romey 1878]

4 hours ago, SpartyBlue said:

I take your point but if he’s here and healthy and the best option he’s going to play until he breaks. I would be surprised if he’s here though.

Then that's stupid and a big reason why we look so awful defensively. If he's a guaranteed starter when he's fit it means you're constantly changing your backline (sometimes in the first half of a game, costing us a sub) because he will always break.

And people keep throwing the win % stat out about him when he plays but I'm almost certain that if you took 25% of Keane's games away from him his stats would look a lot better, and I'm equally as certain that if Mina played as many games as Keane does every season his stats would regress quite a lot. He's got a lot of mistakes in him.

[StevO]

Maybe that lad at Chelsea could be an option as a left footer. Six centre backs with no left foot between then won’t help with the balance. 

[Bailey]

3 hours ago, StevO said:

Maybe that lad at Chelsea could be an option as a left footer. Six centre backs with no left foot between then won’t help with the balance. 

If you play with 5 at the back, I think it is more important that the wider CBs play on their correct side too as there is more impetus on them playing out from the back and getting into more advanced positions. 

Its not crucial by any means but it will help our own build-up play. 

[SpartyBlue]

4 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

Then that's stupid and a big reason why we look so awful defensively. If he's a guaranteed starter when he's fit it means you're constantly changing your backline (sometimes in the first half of a game, costing us a sub) because he will always break.

And people keep throwing the win % stat out about him when he plays but I'm almost certain that if you took 25% of Keane's games away from him his stats would look a lot better, and I'm equally as certain that if Mina played as many games as Keane does every season his stats would regress quite a lot. He's got a lot of mistakes in him.

I think it just means we would be playing our best players. Mina did used to have a lot of mistakes in him but I haven’t really seen that over the last couple of seasons. I think he’s matured quite a bit in that regard. In any case I would be pretty surprised if both him and Keane were on the team at the end of the window so it will probably sort itself out.

[Cornish Steve]

Holgate really frustrates me. At times, he plays really well, but he makes too many stupid mistakes. I've almost run out of patience, I confess.

[SpartyBlue]

1 hour ago, Cornish Steve said:

Holgate really frustrates me. At times, he plays really well, but he makes too many stupid mistakes. I've almost run out of patience, I confess.

Yea. Seems like it should be in there. It’s hard to figure as he had gotten to a really good level 3 years ago and looked like the next Stones. Frustrating. This is the make or break season for him as far as I’m concerned. 

[Wiggytop]

1 hour ago, SpartyBlue said:

Yea. Seems like it should be in there. It’s hard to figure as he had gotten to a really good level 3 years ago and looked like the next Stones. Frustrating. This is the make or break season for him as far as I’m concerned. 

Hate to say it but I don’t think he has the right mind set to make it, watching him in pre game warm ups he acts like a big cocky kid doing flicks and tricks etc rather than focusing on getting his head right.

[SpartyBlue]

7 minutes ago, Wiggytop said:

Hate to say it but I don’t think he has the right mind set to make it, watching him in pre game warm ups he acts like a big cocky kid doing flicks and tricks etc rather than focusing on getting his head right.

Perhaps. The odd part is that he WAS great. The talk was we were going to lose him. Then he got hurt, mistakes crept into his game etc..He did well the last few games last season so we will see. I imagine this is going to be it though. I can’t see how he stays if he was a poor year at this point.

[Bailey]

I must have been watching a different Holgate over the years.

[Hafnia]

Well it appears the lad isn’t just a stopper then… who would have thought it. 

[Shukes]

Looked to have a decent range of passing.

Left his man for the second though. But hopefully that’s just getting used to who picks up who..

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

1 hour ago, Hafnia said:

Well it appears the lad isn’t just a stopper then… who would have thought it. 

Pleasantly surprised, never knew he had that in him

[Hafnia]

1 hour ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Pleasantly surprised, never knew he had that in him

I think I posted something a while back that his passing ability is overlooked and he can play, it’s just that Burnley don’t want that. 

[Hafnia]

1 hour ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Pleasantly surprised, never knew he had that in him

 

On 24/05/2022 at 10:36, Hafnia said:

https://lchunhang.medium.com/player-analysis-james-tarkowski-englands-most-overlooked-defender-a61aa5b1d030
 

Good read, probably a better passer than credited for. 

This is the one.  I tend to have a habit of over researching players we are linked to if they look likely to sign. 

[RuffRob]

He is already looking a shrew investment. I am really hoping he is one of those CBs who has a long shelf life. 

[Palfy]

9 minutes ago, RuffRob said:

He is already looking a shrew investment. I am really hoping he is one of those CBs who has a long shelf life. 

I rodent go that far. 

[Romey 1878]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

I rodent go that far. 

Fuck me, if even the current miserable Palf is getting involved in shenanigans like this then you know we're in for a belter of a season.