James Tarkowski

[Goodison Glory]

7 hours ago, Matt said:

I'm curious now, 0-99 what? Rating? Percentage? Very vague. 

Can you share the site please? I had a look around but didn't find a page that looked like that. 

My understanding is that it is a score, so I guess rating would be the best way to describe it.

Here is the site. You can sign up for free access, but you can only do 5 searches a day unless you have paid membership. The Athletic (another paid site, but very good/cheap) does a good job of analysing the data, which is where I got the Mina/Tarkowski info. They also did one on Townsend vs. Gray.

https://smarterscout.com

[MikeO]

On 04/06/2022 at 13:25, MikeO said:

If he signs, can we pronounce his name "hamez"?

This has stuck in my brain, can't shake it, he'll always be Hamez for me

[Goodison Glory]

On 03/07/2022 at 05:38, Matt said:

I'd also be interested to see Keane vs Mina actually, otherwise known as our shit CB who's to blame for most things vs our mostly injured but clearly better CB

Couldn't get the sexy donut wheel that the Athletic produced but I put both sets of data side by side. 

Mina better in almost every area. Keane significantly better in moving the ball forward. 

So conclusion - Mina = better defender but mostly injured.

(50% of something (Keane) is better than 100% of nothing (Mina)

[Matt]

7 minutes ago, Goodison Glory said:

Couldn't get the sexy donut wheel that the Athletic produced but I put both sets of data side by side. 

Mina better in almost every area. Keane significantly better in moving the ball forward. 

So conclusion - Mina = better defender but mostly injured.

(50% of something (Keane) is better than 100% of nothing (Mina)

So ariel duels, passing, groud duels Keane is better or close to the same with nearly 3 times the amount of game time (so 3 times more chances where he lost the duels etc).

Says Keane is the better defender to me. 

[Goodison Glory]

6 minutes ago, Matt said:

So ariel duels, passing, groud duels Keane is better or close to the same with nearly 3 times the amount of game time (so 3 times more chances where he lost the duels etc).

Says Keane is the better defender to me. 

Ok. I interpret it differently but that's the beauty of statistics. I think we are ultimately agreeing on one thing just for different reasons - Mina should leave the club before Keane.

[Matt]

1 minute ago, Goodison Glory said:

Ok. I interpret it differently but that's the beauty of statistics. I think we are ultimately agreeing on one thing just for different reasons - Mina should leave the club before Keane.

I see the important stuff being in Keanes favour. I'm not at the computer but if you worked out the percentage difference of games played (by that I mean find out the value of difference in missing minutes) then applied that to the stats of Mina, I'm not sure it would show he's better at all. But that's completely academic because the whole point is he doesn't play those minutes and has cost us an early substitution several times too

[Gwlad]

1 hour ago, MikeO said:

This has stuck in my brain, can't shake it, he'll always be Hamez for me

Jam Tark?

[Bailey]

6 hours ago, RuffRob said:

I have got no idea what Keane 'numbers' were, but No, as Keane wasn't 29 at the time and had not got anywhere near the same seasoned experience or leadership qualities Tarkowski is coming in with. So Keane signing was nowhere near a potential 'Weir' type of signing.

Given our problems last season at the back and our financial issue - this is looking like the making of a astute signing. But Like any signing, only time will tell.

His numbers were up there just as Tarkowskis were. Its a similar thing for Burnley defenders generally.

Agreed about the experience angle though. 

[RuffRob]

9 hours ago, Bailey said:

His numbers were up there just as Tarkowskis were. Its a similar thing for Burnley defenders generally.

 

can't see these number of before Keane joined us, but its not all about number - numbers don't show leadership qualities and than is probably the single biggest flaw with Keane, just not any sort of leader and is poor when he's not got one by his side. Tarkowski is a leader, more akin to a Weir type. It is what we where consistently lacking last year - hence defenders in each others way on more than one occasion. 

[Bailey]

14 hours ago, RuffRob said:

can't see these number of before Keane joined us, but its not all about number - numbers don't show leadership qualities and than is probably the single biggest flaw with Keane, just not any sort of leader and is poor when he's not got one by his side. Tarkowski is a leader, more akin to a Weir type. It is what we where consistently lacking last year - hence defenders in each others way on more than one occasion. 

You brought up his numbers, not me! 

[Goodison Glory]

2 hours ago, Bailey said:

You brought up his numbers, not me! 

Actually you brought up Keane's numbers first. prior to that he was only referring to Tarkowski's numbers. 

"Out of interest, would you have said the same about Keane when we signed him who had similar numbers when he was at Burnley"

[Shukes]

Keane will be a much better player with Tarkowski. He is our best defender when he has leadership next to him.

[RuffRob]

12 hours ago, Bailey said:

You brought up his numbers, not me! 

Yeah, discussed Tarkowski's number looking good (i.e best in Prem in a number of defending stats)- which they are. 

I didn't even mention Keane in my post, never mind his numbers - you brought them up. You said Keane had similar numbers when he came here and I said I haven't seen them - but somehow doubt he was top in lots of Prem stats in the season before we bought him. But happy to be shown otherwise.

Maybe we are somehow talking cross purposes here. 

[Palfy]

9 hours ago, Shukes said:

Keane will be a much better player with Tarkowski. He is our best defender when he has leadership next to him.

Most sensible thing you’ve said this month mate

[Sir McGiven]

Not sure if he will have an impact on Keane but he has been one of the most rated center backs out of top 6 IMO, so he is a great addition for me. 

[Shukes]

3 hours ago, Palfy said:

Most sensible thing you’ve said this month mate

Haha always count on you to motivate me mate

Though I would have gone for decade haha.

[Bailey]

19 hours ago, Goodison Glory said:

Actually you brought up Keane's numbers first. prior to that he was only referring to Tarkowski's numbers. 

"Out of interest, would you have said the same about Keane when we signed him who had similar numbers when he was at Burnley"

RR talked about Tarkowskis numbers, I just provided a comparison and context. I didnt say RR brought up Keane's numbers. 

9 hours ago, RuffRob said:

Yeah, discussed Tarkowski's number looking good (i.e best in Prem in a number of defending stats)- which they are. 

I didn't even mention Keane in my post, never mind his numbers - you brought them up. You said Keane had similar numbers when he came here and I said I haven't seen them - but somehow doubt he was top in lots of Prem stats in the season before we bought him. But happy to be shown otherwise.

Maybe we are somehow talking cross purposes here. 

As above. I provided context and comparison to Tarkowskis numbers with a player that has gone on the same path. 

He was top in those stats. I have posted them before as part of a comparison so I wont do it again as it took a long time. Its the same with Mee too. The basic point is that Burnley centre backs get good defensive stats. In fact a lot of very average PL players get very good defensive stats depending on the teams they play for.

My view is that they tend to have more opportunity (they do more defending) and the team is set up to soak up pressure and to offer protection to the defence so they are less likely to be exposed by opposition attacks.

[Hafnia]

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

RR talked about Tarkowskis numbers, I just provided a comparison and context. I didnt say RR brought up Keane's numbers. 

As above. I provided context and comparison to Tarkowskis numbers with a player that has gone on the same path. 

He was top in those stats. I have posted them before as part of a comparison so I wont do it again as it took a long time. Its the same with Mee too. The basic point is that Burnley centre backs get good defensive stats. In fact a lot of very average PL players get very good defensive stats depending on the teams they play for.

My view is that they tend to have more opportunity (they do more defending) and the team is set up to soak up pressure and to offer protection to the defence so they are less likely to be exposed by opposition attacks.

We’ve already debunked this Bailey, Burnley conceded less goals than quite a few teams, scoring goals was their issue.  There is no correlation between strong teams vs weaker teams as we see VVD up there with Tarkowski.
 

 Interesting that we see Keane up there for aerial headers… most agree that’s an area he’s good at.   Thing is Tarkowski has stronger stats across the board. 
 

I’ve looked right across the board at defenders to assess this as my theory was that weaker teams defenders will block more etc, you can’t escape the fact that good defenders show high for things they are good at. 

[Cornish Steve]

Personally, I expect Tarkowski and Keane  to be a strong pairing.

[StevO]

13 hours ago, RPG said:

If we sit deep and defend then I agree. But if we try to press and our back four are expected to play towards the half way line then I think they could get done for pace with the ball over the top or get  played through/around too easily.

You can have a press from the front and not have the back four on the half way line. They don’t all have to be on top of each other. This can be done without leaving massive gaps if planned properly. 
Thankfully it’s down to Frank and his staff to come up with the tactics and not us lot. 

[London Blue]

What we lack is a very good defender who can lead the back line. Now we have that. The very talented but inconsistent younger players now have someone to lead them and someone to learn from.

[Romey 1878]

2 hours ago, StevO said:

You can have a press from the front and not have the back four on the half way line. They don’t all have to be on top of each other. This can be done without leaving massive gaps if planned properly. 
Thankfully it’s down to Frank and his staff to come up with the tactics and not us lot. 

Agreed. My plan would be get ball, move ball, score.

I think there's probably more than that needed though, so over to Frank!

[Bailey]

21 hours ago, Hafnia said:

We’ve already debunked this Bailey, Burnley conceded less goals than quite a few teams, scoring goals was their issue.  There is no correlation between strong teams vs weaker teams as we see VVD up there with Tarkowski.
 

 Interesting that we see Keane up there for aerial headers… most agree that’s an area he’s good at.   Thing is Tarkowski has stronger stats across the board. 
 

I’ve looked right across the board at defenders to assess this as my theory was that weaker teams defenders will block more etc, you can’t escape the fact that good defenders show high for things they are good at. 

No you didnt debunk it all. 

I think the fact that VVD is up there this season shows how good he actually is and/or something about how Liverpool play. I also question why you pick the best defender on the aerial challenges won list and not the rest of the dross in the top 10 (defenders only):

1. Tarkowski

2. Pinnock

3. VVD

4. Matip (maybe it is a Liverpool thing )

5. Salisu

6. Janssen

7. Burn

8. Keane

9. Bednarek

10. Mings

Interceptions

1. Tarkowski

2. Salisu

3. Mings

4. Jansson

5. Bednarek

6. Saiss

7. Andersen

8. Hanley

9. Matip

10. Cash

Blocked Shots

1. Tarkowski

2. Dawson

3. Hanley

4. Coady

5. Dier

6. Mings

7. Lascelles

8. Keane

9. Gibson

10. Bednarek

Look at all of those quality defenders filling up those top spots and all those good teams they play for.

Something no-one else has brought up is the aerial battles lost stats, so here they are for you as they back up my case further:

1. Jansson

2. Pinnock

3. Llorente

4. TARKOWKSI

5. Salisu

6. Keane

7. Dawson

8. Dier

9. Guehi

10.Burn

If you still dont get it then I give up.

[Bailey]

Just now, Bailey said:

No you didnt debunk it all. 

I think the fact that VVD is up there this season shows how good he actually is and/or something about how Liverpool play. I also question why you pick the best defender on the aerial challenges won list and not the rest of the dross in the top 10 (defenders only):

1. Tarkowski

2. Pinnock

3. VVD

4. Matip (maybe it is a Liverpool thing )

5. Salisu

6. Janssen

7. Burn

8. Keane

9. Bednarek

10. Mings

Interceptions

1. Tarkowski

2. Salisu

3. Mings

4. Jansson

5. Bednarek

6. Saiss

7. Andersen

8. Hanley

9. Matip

10. Cash

Blocked Shots

1. Tarkowski

2. Dawson

3. Hanley

4. Coady

5. Dier

6. Mings

7. Lascelles

8. Keane

9. Gibson

10. Bednarek

Look at all of those quality defenders filling up those top spots and all those good teams they play for.

Something no-one else has brought up is the aerial battles lost stats, so here they are for you as they back up my case further:

1. Jansson

2. Pinnock

3. Llorente

4. TARKOWKSI

5. Salisu

6. Keane

7. Dawson

8. Dier

9. Guehi

10.Burn

If you still dont get it then I give up.

Oh and he was 2nd the year before (Mee 3rd). 

I guess you could argue that is improvement.

[Hafnia]

14 hours ago, Bailey said:

Oh and he was 2nd the year before (Mee 3rd). 

I guess you could argue that is improvement.

first off - all this stems from your weird defence of Michael Keane, once upon a time you nailed your colours to his mast and no matter of own goals or red cards managed you to make you change your view on him.  Lets hope Frank doesn't play Godfrey as a DM and he does well in the role....  I think your ego would melt.

So you have made the assertion that defenders from lesser team get higher stats cos they get more chance to defend?  That would be the logical assumption wouldn't it?  a bit like strikers from better teams score more goals generally.... unless you get the occasional outlier - in which case they then usually get bought by a better team (hint to what usually happens with defenders)

 

Blocks: - Craig Dawson 2nd for a team that finished 7th, coady 4th for a team that finished 10th

Interceptions:- Cancelo 5th - for the team that won the prem

Clearances off line:- Thiago silva and Connor Coady ahead of tarkowsi  (Chelsea wolves)

Last man tackles: - not one player from bottom half in top 5 - be due to high line defending

Clearance:- this is heavily weighted to lower team as it is the act of kicking away with no intended recipient

Headed clearance - Eric dier 4th playing for 4th placed team but generally its lower teams with higher numbers

aerial battles won:- 2 liverpool players in top 5 - as already stated there are opportunities for this stat with better teams players as they get the opportunity for this with every goal kick from opponents which derives from their own teams attacking prowess

% of battles is more indicative when you strip out the lower volume players, tarkowski is in and around VVD, Matip, lascelles with his numbers as the best.....  

 

so there you have it, a balanced view of the stats that you are saying benefit lower teams players - the answer is "yes they do, and no they dont".  You are using that to discredit tarkwoski and the answer to that is nonsense.  There will be some pretty poor players with good stats in certain areas, lets be honest Keane is not a reliable centre half but based on his headed numbers alone you would say he is strong.  Its only when you get the mix to see who is rounded and that is where you see why tarjowski ticks boxes.  Above all its intangibles that tick the boxes for me - he's got bottle and is up for the fight.

No doubt you will spend the season telling us how tarkowski was at fault for a goals that people were blaming Keane for due to some super insightful fifa pro license insight.

p.s I do get it mate, I’ve worked with data insights for the past 15+ years and report to executives to drive decisions based on data.   I’m fully aware that data can be manipulated to justify a view. Your view that tarkowski stats are good because he played for a team of a certain style/position isn’t correct. There will be factors that support it but the view is flawed as evidence by the presence of players of certain clubs. 
 

but as I say, the forum is on a hiding to nothing now, you are gonna bore the crap out of match forums when an opportunity for confirmation bias arises. You have gone in heavy early doors as always, when most including myself are optimistic and behind the player. 

 

[Matt]

Sorry, stopped reading at "nailed colours to mast" to clean up the coffee I just spat everywhere

[Hafnia]

29 minutes ago, Matt said:

Sorry, stopped reading at "nailed colours to mast" to clean up the coffee I just spat everywhere

Not entirely true is it Matt (a bit like you spitting coffee out) I’m humble enough to be proven wrong as we seen by my £100 bet.  As we have seen on many occasions.  But don’t let that ruin your narrative on the basis that it’s often you I disagree with. 

[Matt]

1 hour ago, Hafnia said:

Not entirely true is it Matt (a bit like you spitting coffee out) I’m humble enough to be proven wrong as we seen by my £100 bet.  As we have seen on many occasions.  But don’t let that ruin your narrative on the basis that it’s often you I disagree with. 

You did on that occasion, yes. But that wasnt about change of opinion, that was an event that you didn't think would happen, a bet, so not really a relative defence, as honorable was it was. Not to say you don't at all acknowledge when you get it wrong, that wasn't the point. But you are notorious for nailing your colours to a mast and defending that stance to the death inspite of conflicting evidence. It's all passion driven but its no less true. Just found it funny.

I'm not lying about the coffee either, went right up my nose too

[badaids]

I had no idea that Keane won so many aerial battles. Is he rated to fly a Typhoon or on a kennel like snoopy?  We’ll have to start calling him the Blue Baron.

[Matt]

15 minutes ago, badaids said:

I had no idea that Keane won so many aerial battles. Is he rated to fly a Typhoon or on a kennel like snoopy?  We’ll have to start calling him the Blue Baron.

At set pieces he's dominant