Tom Davies

[SpartyBlue]

4 hours ago, StevO said:

Absolutely does my head in when the wages an athlete earns is brought in to how they should handle part criticism. 
It’s not even closely relevant to how someone should be treated. 
 

it’s part of the job of being a professional athlete to accept criticism. End of the sentence. Even that’s at a push. 

A push? They are paid enough money to make them generationally wealthy and every single one of them knows they will get criticism from the fan base when they perform poorly. It is absolutely part of the gig. If they can’t handle it they are free to get a different job. 
 

I’m not taking about actual abuse, mind you. When it crosses the line it should absolutely be called out. But any profession which is subject to public comment comes with an expectation of criticism. Authors, musicians, politicians, athletes..And the money does matter. A player making 300k a week is and should be held to a different standard than one making 50k. 

[StevO]

5 hours ago, SpartyBlue said:

A push? They are paid enough money to make them generationally wealthy and every single one of them knows they will get criticism from the fan base when they perform poorly. It is absolutely part of the gig. If they can’t handle it they are free to get a different job. 
 

I’m not taking about actual abuse, mind you. When it crosses the line it should absolutely be called out. But any profession which is subject to public comment comes with an expectation of criticism. Authors, musicians, politicians, athletes..And the money does matter. A player making 300k a week is and should be held to a different standard than one making 50k. 

It’s just ridiculous. No one gets paid more to have more criticism. They are paid more at their job because they are good at what they do, in a well paid profession. They aren’t paid more to get more criticism. 
The two do not go hand in hand. They are open to more criticism because they are in a highly publicised job, but this idea that they are well paid and that’s relevant to the criticism is just daft.

By the same token I can’t criticise my a guy in McDonald’s if he sells me an under cooked burger and I get sick because he’s not well paid. 
 

I am absolutely fine with them getting criticism for having a bad game by the way, that’s performance related, but any idea that this is part of the job because it’s so well paid, not having it. It’s parts of the job because it’s a public job. Not because most of them are millionaires. 
 

If I don’t have a good time in my monthly review on Wednesday I’ll be sure to tell my directors that they need to pay me more if they want to criticise my performance. 

[pete0]

 

 

[Palfy]

6 hours ago, StevO said:

It’s just ridiculous. No one gets paid more to have more criticism. They are paid more at their job because they are good at what they do, in a well paid profession. They aren’t paid more to get more criticism. 
The two do not go hand in hand. They are open to more criticism because they are in a highly publicised job, but this idea that they are well paid and that’s relevant to the criticism is just daft.

By the same token I can’t criticise my a guy in McDonald’s if he sells me an under cooked burger and I get sick because he’s not well paid. 
 

I am absolutely fine with them getting criticism for having a bad game by the way, that’s performance related, but any idea that this is part of the job because it’s so well paid, not having it. It’s parts of the job because it’s a public job. Not because most of them are millionaires. 
 

If I don’t have a good time in my monthly review on Wednesday I’ll be sure to tell my directors that they need to pay me more if they want to criticise my performance. 

I agree more money doesn’t automatically mean you deserve or should get more criticism, but the media focus on the big leagues big teams and big players, so the bigger you become with all the trappings that gives you the bigger the microscope becomes on you as an individual, and unfortunately criticism is a huge part of it and part and parcel of the game especially for the bigger players, let’s be honest nobody is interested in Stevenages keeper for a horrendous mistake last week bar their supporters, but plenty are interested in the criticism of Allison or Lloris for their cock ups. Heston Blumenthal what ever his name is who owns the Fat Duck had an out brake of food poisoning a few years back at his restaurant the criticism went crazy the whole country got to no about it, a local restaurant in Swindon gets about of it and nobody knows, because the media aren’t interested. 
So in away Sparty has a point the more successful you become the more ferocious the criticism becomes, whether that is right or wrong is another matter but it does work that way. 

[StevO]

8 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I agree more money doesn’t automatically mean you deserve or should get more criticism, but the media focus on the big leagues big teams and big players, so the bigger you become with all the trappings that gives you the bigger the microscope becomes on you as an individual, and unfortunately criticism is a huge part of it and part and parcel of the game especially for the bigger players, let’s be honest nobody is interested in Stevenages keeper for a horrendous mistake last week bar their supporters, but plenty are interested in the criticism of Allison or Lloris for their cock ups. Heston Blumenthal what ever his name is who owns the Fat Duck had an out brake of food poisoning a few years back at his restaurant the criticism went crazy the whole country got to no about it, a local restaurant in Swindon gets about of it and nobody knows, because the media aren’t interested. 
So in away Sparty has a point the more successful you become the more ferocious the criticism becomes, whether that is right or wrong is another matter but it does work that way. 

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head at the end there. The more successful you are the greater the criticism. 
Shouldn’t necessarily be the more you earn the greater the criticism. 
If that was the case you’d never step out the door all you earn

[Palfy]

8 minutes ago, StevO said:

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head at the end there. The more successful you are the greater the criticism. 
Shouldn’t necessarily be the more you earn the greater the criticism. 
If that was the case you’d never step out the door all you earn

And I get criticism

[StevO]

20 minutes ago, Palfy said:

And I get criticism

Not enough criticism in my opinion mate

[Bailey]

On 12/02/2021 at 19:21, London Blue said:

This is what saddens me, this guy, an Everton fan never moans, never complains, always goes out and gives his all for the team. He works hard and improves and then so called fans are ready to "Get the knives out" the next time he has a bad performance.

Some of our fans aren't worthy of the title of fan.

It's always the way though LB and to be fair it is football fans all up and down the country!

On 12/02/2021 at 20:16, pete0 said:

The fact all them have been highlighted shows how much our fans have it out for him. Just like Mina and Pickford every bad moment gets picked apart. They have no more bad ones than any player for us.

The back four minus Digne, Olsen and Sigurdsson had much bigger faults.

I don’t think People have it out for Davies any more than any other player. There isn't one player in an Everton shirt that doesn't get stick when they deserve it. 

On 12/02/2021 at 21:08, London Blue said:

My point is, and perhaps I am not expressing it well enough is that:

1) Criticism is fine, nobody is above being criticised.

2) Wanting this club to succeed and have the best players is great.

3) Being overly critical to the point of ignoring any improvement or effort is bad.

 

This 100%. 

It's not always easy because we all have unconscious biases but it is all about balance and perspective. Every player will have a bad game, or a bad moment in a game, no-one is perfect. Some will play well, either in a game or for a period of games. 

It's wrong to write off player on the back of a couple of games but it's also not helpful to go the other way about a player too. 

[pete0]

10 hours ago, Bailey said:

I don’t think People have it out for Davies any more than any other player. There isn't one player in an Everton shirt that doesn't get stick when they deserve it. 

How many times do people pick apart his passing? More often than not its not justified. Last week he had one pass go astray in his own half and that was more down to Sigurdsson being lazy not making a gap or showing for the ball.

Weird thing is he's easily one of the best passes in the team. Both feet, weight on the ball, and tries and pulls off more risky passes.

[Bailey]

4 hours ago, pete0 said:

How many times do people pick apart his passing? More often than not its not justified. Last week he had one pass go astray in his own half and that was more down to Sigurdsson being lazy not making a gap or showing for the ball.

Weird thing is he's easily one of the best passes in the team. Both feet, weight on the ball, and tries and pulls off more risky passes.

I think the key thing about that pass is it played directly into the trap Spurs were laying and then he went and compounded that error by diving in and taking himself out of the game. That is why it was commented on.

I think you are straw clutching about Siggy and its a bit desperate. I don't understand why you cant acknowledge the mistakes.

[pete0]

21 minutes ago, Bailey said:

I think the key thing about that pass is it played directly into the trap Spurs were laying and then he went and compounded that error by diving in and taking himself out of the game. That is why it was commented on.

I think you are straw clutching about Siggy and its a bit desperate. I don't understand why you cant acknowledge the mistakes.

I'm on about a different pass. The one in his own half when they're trying to play the ball out. Sigurdsson barely breaks a sweat.

As for the dive in. You see that every week. It's rash but hardly note worthy. Any other player did it, it wouldn't be mentioned.

[Btay]

I though Davies was the only player who really tried to beat the press on the weekend. Too many players were happy letting our CB’s pass along the back or when they finally got it to feet recycled it back to backline. 
 

Davies might not have the talent of your Gomes, Gylfi or Jame’s but if they had an ounce of his heart or honesty - we would be so much better off.

[London Blue]

You need a mix of players to make a successful team.

[Bailey]

23 hours ago, pete0 said:

I'm on about a different pass. The one in his own half when they're trying to play the ball out. Sigurdsson barely breaks a sweat.

As for the dive in. You see that every week. It's rash but hardly note worthy. Any other player did it, it wouldn't be mentioned.

I don't know the one you are talking about.

The dive in is massive. It's U10 football. It is of huge important to the defensive unit. How you can say it is hardly noteworthy is a surprise. It is one of the things that pissed me off most about Gana, completely abandoning his position and that was also after a poor pass more often than not.

16 hours ago, Btay said:

I though Davies was the only player who really tried to beat the press on the weekend. Too many players were happy letting our CB’s pass along the back or when they finally got it to feet recycled it back to backline. 
 

Davies might not have the talent of your Gomes, Gylfi or Jame’s but if they had an ounce of his heart or honesty - we would be so much better off.

Even with Tom it was in spells. In the first half Against Utd, it was Gomes always looking up. The number of Tom played backward without even looking was Siggy-esque. It was even more frustrating as our tactical approach was to hit them on the counter and him, James and Doucoure in particular passed up a lot of opportunity. In the second half he got much better, Doucoure's passing was still hit and miss but he started breaking forward more effectively and we improved.

Against Spurs it was a similar thing, too many times the ball was going backwards but I thought Davies was better than Doucoure at taking that touch and moving the ball forward. When you have Davies on the turn, Doucoure running into and creating space and Siggy applying some quality in the final third it will click and it did.

In the Fulham match (which I didn't watch all of), all of our midfielders looked hamstrung by the tactics and personnel employed. Very rarely was there an out ball and we were so narrow in the attacking third that playing through central midfield was almost impossible.

You also talk about heart and honesty etc and again its not for me. These are professional football players. I want them to perform. Davies waving a leg around like he is doing the can-can for the Fernandes goal, is neither heart, honesty or quality. I am only using him as an example because that is who you are referring to, because others are doing similar stupid things.

 

[pete0]

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

The dive in is massive. It's U10 football. It is of huge important to the defensive unit. How you can say it is hardly noteworthy is a surprise. It is one of the things that pissed me off most about Gana, completely abandoning his position and that was also after a poor pass more often than not.

He's done it once, and in the oppositions final third. The ball had ran away from him and he's tried to win it back when it had gone too far. I doubt there's a single player who's not over tried to make up for a cock up. Yet Davies gets picked apart for it.

To compare him to Gana is laughable. Big difference between letting your instincts get the better of you than just being a headless chicken.

[Palfy]

I’d rather save him for the Derby if he can’t play both, I want players out there who no what it means to the City to win the Derby. 

[Bailey]

22 hours ago, pete0 said:

He's done it once, and in the oppositions final third. The ball had ran away from him and he's tried to win it back when it had gone too far. I doubt there's a single player who's not over tried to make up for a cock up. Yet Davies gets picked apart for it.

To compare him to Gana is laughable. Big difference between letting your instincts get the better of you than just being a headless chicken.

That is the point, you don't compound one error with another. You definitely don't do it against a team that is set up to win the ball back and hit you on the counter like Spurs do either. You may not consider it important but that action takes him out of the game completely.

Another example is seen in the highlights package right at the very start. He dives in with no chance of winning the ball, you roll on to 15seconds in and they have a 6 v 5 attack against us that leads to a chance and good save from Olsen. Unfortunately the moment I am talking about is not in the highlights package because nothing comes of it, but the same thing happens. They end up in a good counter attacking transition.

Just looking at the highlights again, the role of Davies in their 2nd goal is pretty big. I have some sympathy because we defend in a 442 block but he sees the danger of Lamela and doesn't break sweat to try and close the distance and then he cannot stay with the run. The are other faults in the goal, not least Mina's weak touch, but Davies had opportunity to stop that attack in its tracks on two occasions.

It actually gets worse. In Spurs attack at 3.13 he loses his runner, who luckily doesn't get on the end of it. Again other faults in that Godfrey doesn't stop the cross. It leads to a corner that they score from.

Then we move onto the Son chance (4:56) which if you watch closely is actually terrible defending. I have no idea what that is and it leads to a goal. He does it again a few minutes later (or before) in the actual game but it isn't in the package.

At 7:48 you would expect him to go with Sissoko being the defensive player in that scenario. He walks at Sissoko to close him down when he should be sprinting. He then wafts his leg in the are as he did against Utd. I would be less concerned about this compared to the others given how late it is in the game.

I have only picked out Davies because that is the focus of this conversation and there are easily others that you can look at and question. It is without doubt though going back through those key moments in the game to show that he actually played badly in them. My impression is that he did well in the game as a whole but looking back at these, I am really disappointed in him.

[pete0]

5 minutes ago, Bailey said:

That is the point, you don't compound one error with another. You definitely don't do it against a team that is set up to win the ball back and hit you on the counter like Spurs do either. You may not consider it important but that action takes him out of the game completely.

Another example is seen in the highlights package right at the very start. He dives in with no chance of winning the ball, you roll on to 15seconds in and they have a 6 v 5 attack against us that leads to a chance and good save from Olsen. Unfortunately the moment I am talking about is not in the highlights package because nothing comes of it, but the same thing happens. They end up in a good counter attacking transition.

Just looking at the highlights again, the role of Davies in their 2nd goal is pretty big. I have some sympathy because we defend in a 442 block but he sees the danger of Lamela and doesn't break sweat to try and close the distance and then he cannot stay with the run. The are other faults in the goal, not least Mina's weak touch, but Davies had opportunity to stop that attack in its tracks on two occasions.

It actually gets worse. In Spurs attack at 3.13 he loses his runner, who luckily doesn't get on the end of it. Again other faults in that Godfrey doesn't stop the cross. It leads to a corner that they score from.

Then we move onto the Son chance (4:56) which if you watch closely is actually terrible defending. I have no idea what that is and it leads to a goal. He does it again a few minutes later (or before) in the actual game but it isn't in the package.

At 7:48 you would expect him to go with Sissoko being the defensive player in that scenario. He walks at Sissoko to close him down when he should be sprinting. He then wafts his leg in the are as he did against Utd. I would be less concerned about this compared to the others given how late it is in the game.

I have only picked out Davies because that is the focus of this conversation and there are easily others that you can look at and question. It is without doubt though going back through those key moments in the game to show that he actually played badly in them. My impression is that he did well in the game as a whole but looking back at these, I am really disappointed in him.

You're ignoring the point. It's natural. Every player will do it at some point. 

If he does it all the time you'd have an argument or even if you pulled up other players for doing it. To slap his performance down for one moment in the oppositions third is laughable.

[Bailey]

23 hours ago, pete0 said:

You're ignoring the point. It's natural. Every player will do it at some point. 

If he does it all the time you'd have an argument or even if you pulled up other players for doing it. To slap his performance down for one moment in the oppositions third is laughable.

I'm not ignoring the point Pete. He does it regularly and I gave you an example of another moment in that game where he did it. He did it against City too. It was also one moment amongst a raft of other moments. Its not the only poor decision.

Its horses for courses though, my view is that if you make decisions like that too often you will concede chances from it. You may be happy with that balance, but I don't.

I will just add, this isn't just a problem with Tom. Watch from 7:32 in the PSG v Barca game. Some idiot dives in around the PSG 18 yard box and then they have the overlap and score. Goals like this happen more than you think just from someone taking themselves out of the game.

 

 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

 

[Palfy]

It means more when it’s one of your own you know they mean it. 

[markjazzbassist]

another great performance, he is becoming very consistent now.  very happy with him

[MikeO]

45 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

another great performance, he is becoming very consistent now.  very happy with him

Had four consecutive MOTM performances before today (admittedly some poor team performances in there) and won't be far off a 5th. So happy for the lad, the fact that I was a massive fan of his uncle adds to it.

[London Blue]

He has become our lynch pin in midfield, so made up for him.

Alan will have to work hard to get his place back.

[Palfy]

On 18/02/2021 at 14:27, Bailey said:

I'm not ignoring the point Pete. He does it regularly and I gave you an example of another moment in that game where he did it. He did it against City too. It was also one moment amongst a raft of other moments. Its not the only poor decision.

Its horses for courses though, my view is that if you make decisions like that too often you will concede chances from it. You may be happy with that balance, but I don't.

I will just add, this isn't just a problem with Tom. Watch from 7:32 in the PSG v Barca game. Some idiot dives in around the PSG 18 yard box and then they have the overlap and score. Goals like this happen more than you think just from someone taking themselves out of the game.

 

 

He did it again a couple of times today and won the ball each time, he is one of our most improved and important players this season, can’t begin to imagine where we would be if he wasn’t here for Allans long injury, who else in the team would good enough to do what he’s done. 

[Romey 1878]

Brilliant again. Looked head and shoulders above Doucoure next to him,

[Gwlad]

Significant how Tom and Dom have massively improved their game under Carlo and his coaching staff.

[MC11]

BOSS

[Sibdane]

Hopefully his current form is a sign of things to come. He’s been underwhelming for awhile, but he looks a new man lately. 

[Hafnia]

Brilliant again, great pass to start the move leading to the penno