Ronald Koeman

[Bailey]

9 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

funny yet has been said about every manager.  moyes and martinez did it as well.  SAF his holiness also did it.  i think its a dumb argument.  every manager plays players out of position.  

Moyes did it and it didn't work.

Martinez didn't really do it that often? 

SAF tended not to, he just had certain players that he used as utility players when he needed a job doing, generally a defensive job too. 

It's an important argument because the majority of players when played out of position or in the system don't play to their potential. When the 3 above did it, bar Moyes at times, it was generally done for a reason, nullifying a threat, or in the example of Martinez using Lukaku wide, to exploit a weakness. 

Koeman is just shoehorning players into a starting 11 and I can't see any tactical benefit of him doing so. 

[markjazzbassist]

2 minutes ago, Bailey said:

Moyes did it and it didn't work.

Martinez didn't really do it that often? 

SAF tended not to, he just had certain players that he used as utility players when he needed a job doing, generally a defensive job too. 

It's an important argument because the majority of players when played out of position or in the system don't play to their potential. When the 3 above did it, bar Moyes at times, it was generally done for a reason, nullifying a threat, or in the example of Martinez using Lukaku wide, to exploit a weakness. 

Koeman is just shoehorning players into a starting 11 and I can't see any tactical benefit of him doing so. 

 

martinez - galloway CB at fullback.  baines at CM.  osman LW.  plenty of shithouse here too.  every manager shoehorns, its a mute argument if you ask me.

[Bailey]

2 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

 

martinez - galloway CB at fullback.  baines at CM.  osman LW.  plenty of shithouse here too.  every manager shoehorns, its a mute argument if you ask me.

Galloway was left back cover due to his injuries. He also hasn't played anywhere else but LB as far as I know. He did well at LB too as cover.

Baines played in CM for less than a game, again as cover. He talked about doing it but only did if for a short time. And he set up a chance in that time, it didn't harm us.

Osman played on the left because he used that side to play as an inside left certainly not a winger. Same way Pienaar was used by Moyes. 

It does happen, it has to normally because of injuries and tactics but I have never seen so many players used in ways that negates their positives.

[markjazzbassist]

Just now, Bailey said:

Galloway was left back cover due to his injuries. He also hasn't played anywhere else but LB as far as I know. He did well at LB too as cover.

Baines played in CM for less than a game, again as cover. He talked about doing it but only did if for a short time. And he set up a chance in that time, it didn't harm us.

Osman played on the left because he used that side to play as an inside left certainly not a winger. Same way Pienaar was used by Moyes. 

It does happen, it has to normally because of injuries and tactics but I have never seen so many players used in ways that negates their positives.

remember bob taking baines to see bayern, told him he was going to be the english lahm.  ah the memories 

[johnh]

My post was meant as a joke but at least it generated some discussion.

[Aidan]

Currently fighting against a relegation spot. Practically out of our first appearance in Europa League in years with it becoming increasingly difficult to achieve it in the near future.

Surly that game was it wasn't It? What are we holding onto him now for? What's the incentive? What's the purpose of keeping him? I see very little.

There is only 1 reason I can see us keeping him and that's so the stand in manager doesn't have to face Arsenal as his next fixture. 

He's got to go. It's already too late.

[c1982]

I’ve backed him as long as could- Atalanta was the final straw for me though. Based on the squad overhaul that looked in motion on the back of a big improvement in the league last season - I genuinely thought we were moving in the right direction... clearly not - Koeman out!

He even looks like Ian Beale when he went off the rails now and if that’s not enough reason then I don’t know what is!!!

 

 

[MikeO]

Dead man walking.

[Hafnia]

Like a student who thought he was gonna walk his exams... his arrogance seen him misbehaving in class - not doing his home work and now look at him..... frantically flicking through the text books on the bus into school.

Too late Ronald. 

[Newty82]

I'm not sure what else he can do to be honest. He's tried so many different line ups, to no avail. Has he got any ideas left? Not sure he has.

He must be lacking confidence just as much as his players. Problem is, will his decisions become more panicked by lack of confidence too?

When looking at the players we have, it's a bloody good squad, a good mix of potential and experience. But we don't have a team.

And again, we don't see a full game of full on team performance. Only in the 2nd half, which he again he refers to in his post match interview. Why only the 2nd half though?

It looks like we'll be out of the Europa and by next week we could very realistically be out of the League Cup.

It's going to get tougher before it gets easier for Koeman. He really does need to pull this shit together asap.

[rubecula]

the fans have no confidence in Koeman, Koeman has no confidence in the players, the players have no confidence in the tactics.  the only people who seem to have confidence in any of this is every other team we play against 

[London Blue]

Koeman at start of his tenure.

Koeman vs Lyon

[EFC-Paul]

4 minutes ago, London Blue said:

Koeman at start of his tenure.

Koeman vs Leon

Not sure how a dead French assassin figures in all of this 😋

[London Blue]

Bloody dyslexia.  

[Matt]

Didn't want him, never rated him (though I thought I was been won over briefly) and said from the beginning "don't make mass changes". I hated how he treated players (favourites and discarded unceremoniously) and his arrogance, easily perceived as "confidence", has been his undoing.

I'm usually patient and optimistic but after preseason I had doubts. Too much influx and failing to make changes necessary...

his argument about not having enough time to train is valid, but if you're not doing that then you're not good enough for the job

i was never convinced by him, but I so desparetly wanted to be proven wrong. I've never been so disappointed in being so right. #koexit

[rubecula]

French pour Lyonaise sauce over the soft centre Dutch Toffees .... and it leaves a bitter taste

[rubecula]

3 minutes ago, Matt said:

Didn't want him, never rated him (though I thought I was been won over briefly) and said from the beginning "don't make mass changes". I hated how he treated players (favourites and discarded unceremoniously) and his arrogance, easily perceived as "confidence", has been his undoing.

I'm usually patient and optimistic but after preseason I had doubts. Too much influx and failing to make changes necessary...

his argument about not having enough time to train is valid, but if you're not doing that then you're not good enough for the job

i was never convinced by him, but I so desparetly wanted to be proven wrong. I've never been so disappointed in being so right. #koexit

and I thought I was all alone

[Cornish Steve]

He’ll stay until after the Chelsea game, I think. 

[rubecula]

2 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

He’ll stay until after the Chelsea game, I think. 

[Mogsy]

He probably will be given until the end of the Chelsea game, but I think that’s totally pointless, he should go today, get someone else in or just use unsworth/dunk for the next couple of games to install a bit of ‘Everton ‘ into the lads, who knows we could do something against arsenal and Chelsea, we certainly won’t with him still in control 

[EFC-Paul]

I can't see them getting rid of him with three tough games coming up

He'll be gone after the Chelsea game or the away leg to Lyon imo

[nogs]

I said it in the match day thread - how poor the new signings are playing is really glaring. Martina, Keane, Klaasen, Sandro, then add Schneiderlin who arrived January. All just in horrible form. That suggests the environment they've found themselves in is all wrong, Koeman has clearly done something very wrong trying to integrate them. He has to go, this is on the board now. 

[Newty82]

For me, there's a reputation the club has to address.

I think to outsiders, the club has a nice, patient reputation with managers. You may be expected to finish 6th or 7th, but if you don't, it's ok, you'll get another chance.

Like Moyes. Like Martinez.

Does that take a bit of edge off the managers ambition? We all need that bit of pressure to perform at our best. I think it's human nature to relax a bit if that pressure isn't there.

Does the club need to send a message out that it's no longer good enough to settle for there sort of performances, results, early cup exits (that's a bit premature for this season...but a reasonable assumption)?

[c1982]

The poor bloke looks like he needs a holiday.

[Westlo]

9 hours ago, London Blue said:

Koeman at start of his tenure.

Koeman vs Lyon

Need to add the Barcelona logo in the direction Koeman is looking at in the first one.

And add an executioner waiting in the bottom pic.

[Haiku]

1 hour ago, nogs said:

I said it in the match day thread - how poor the new signings are playing is really glaring. Martina, Keane, Klaasen, Sandro, then add Schneiderlin who arrived January. All just in horrible form. That suggests the environment they've found themselves in is all wrong, Koeman has clearly done something very wrong trying to integrate them. He has to go, this is on the board now. 

Yep, at least we saw some class from Schneiderlin last season and we know he can play a lot better. I'm not sure about others, but they were the big stars in their previous clubs (except Cuco), and I'm BUT OK with that they need to settle in, but they're showing nothing of what I'm sure they're capable of.  Really can't see what's going on. I could accept poor form from majority of the players, but there's only Vlasic of the new signings who showed some positives and the rest fail massively. I'm not really satisfied with Pickford's performances lately as well. Lopes was the better keeper last night by a mile.

[wolf8312]

 To be honest the negativity is already so intense I guess failure is unavoidable but I certainly dont think sacking him is going to help matters.

The modern game is basically a bad case of going through managers like cheap socks. A few bad results and the fans pile on, the media follow, and before you know where you are, the players themselves have ousted the manager! Its bad for all concerned especially the club itself.

It never used to be like this as the manager of a football team used to be the boss unless he went full Brian Clough or something, but its happening all over these days as the players know they can easily get rid of any manager who so much as dares to criticize them or not give them their own way.

I dont like Mourinho but hes  a good manager (if tactically boring) and obviously got overthrown by the players at Chelsea, as did Moyes at Man U, and Claudio Ranieri at Leicester. Players not playing to the best of their ability, in order to spite or dispose of a manager, should be seen as tantamount to treason, but the players will continue to get away with this kind of behavior, if the fans continue to just passively accept it, and focus on scapegoating the manager as soon as things go wrong.  

I'm not saying that's happening here, but people should be a little more circumspect and stop with the Witch Hunts every god damned week. You'll enjoy the sport more too if you relax a little more. Personally as a lifelong Evertonian I'm so accustomed to misery I haven't even begun to worry yet, and  dont generally expect to win anyway haha!

You gotta give managers a chance to build a team, give new players time to settle down, and gel together which must be difficult when so many new players come in, and established players start getting pushed out. Its bound to create a massive disruption/resentment, and an uneasy atmosphere that probably affects performances especially for the new players. But to call for the managers head this early is crazy, and will just end up being, a self fulfilling prophecy.

His biggest mistake IMO was bringing Rooney back in. I've never had any resentment or ill feeling against Rooney for leaving, but anyone should have been able to see from his last few seasons at Man U that he's coming to the end of a great career and is basically conked out. I couldn't believe it when we re-signed him, and it was then that I seriously questioned Koemans judgement. I dont know how he couldn't have worked out exactly why Mourinho was selling him. That said many people who want Koeman out now, were made up to be getting Rooney back and its my guess that Rooney wont prove to have been a good signing.

I say give him Koeman at least year and if we get relegated you can burn me!

Still unlikely he will survive...

[rubecula]

36 minutes ago, wolf8312 said:

 To be honest the negativity is already so intense I guess failure is unavoidable but I certainly dont think sacking him is going to help matters.

The modern game is basically a bad case of going through managers like cheap socks. A few bad results and the fans pile on, the media follow, and before you know where you are, the players themselves have ousted the manager! Its bad for all concerned especially the club itself.

It never used to be like this as the manager of a football team used to be the boss unless he went full Brian Clough or something, but its happening all over these days as the players know they can easily get rid of any manager who so much as dares to criticize them or not give them their own way.

I dont like Mourinho but hes  a good manager (if tactically boring) and obviously got overthrown by the players at Chelsea, as did Moyes at Man U, and Claudio Ranieri at Leicester. Players not playing to the best of their ability, in order to spite or dispose of a manager, should be seen as tantamount to treason, but the players will continue to get away with this kind of behavior, if the fans continue to just passively accept it, and focus on scapegoating the manager as soon as things go wrong.  

I'm not saying that's happening here, but people should be a little more circumspect and stop with the Witch Hunts every god damned week. You'll enjoy the sport more too if you relax a little more. Personally as a lifelong Evertonian I'm so accustomed to misery I haven't even begun to worry yet, and  dont generally expect to win anyway haha!

You gotta give managers a chance to build a team, give new players time to settle down, and gel together which must be difficult when so many new players come in, and established players start getting pushed out. Its bound to create a massive disruption/resentment, and an uneasy atmosphere that probably affects performances especially for the new players. But to call for the managers head this early is crazy, and will just end up being, a self fulfilling prophecy.

His biggest mistake IMO was bringing Rooney back in. I've never had any resentment or ill feeling against Rooney for leaving, but anyone should have been able to see from his last few seasons at Man U that he's coming to the end of a great career and is basically conked out. I couldn't believe it when we re-signed him, and it was then that I seriously questioned Koemans judgement. I dont know how he couldn't have worked out exactly why Mourinho was selling him. That said many people who want Koeman out now, were made up to be getting Rooney back and its my guess that Rooney wont prove to have been a good signing.

I say give him Koeman at least year and if we get relegated you can burn me!

Still unlikely he will survive...

Couple of points to mention, Everton usually do give managers a good stint in the job, and almost never rush in to sack a manager. (I said usually because no idea how Moshiri will behave.)

You said give Koeman a year?  How many years should we give him as he has been in post for more than that already.

 

Finally if the tactics are wrong in every game, who would you blame?  it is not a "witch hunt" it is a reasonable doubt on the incumbent manager's ability to move the club in the right direction.

[nogs]

2 hours ago, Haiku said:

Yep, at least we saw some class from Schneiderlin last season and we know he can play a lot better. I'm not sure about others, but they were the big stars in their previous clubs (except Cuco), and I'm BUT OK with that they need to settle in, but they're showing nothing of what I'm sure they're capable of.  Really can't see what's going on. I could accept poor form from majority of the players, but there's only Vlasic of the new signings who showed some positives and the rest fail massively. I'm not really satisfied with Pickford's performances lately as well. Lopes was the better keeper last night by a mile.

Pickford kept us in it, I remember at least two crucial saves when they were clear through. Him and Vlasic are the only two new signings worth a place in the side.

I know you jumped on me when I criticised Klaassen last night, but his selection has to go down as a massive error. In a game we had to win to keep any realistic hopes of staying in Europe alive, why play someone so badly out of form? And to then be hauled off at half time - it just shows Koeman knows he made a mistake.

We cannot afford to let these players play themselves back into form in the first team. Not when the likes of Mirallas and Lookman, who haven't been starting, looked two of our best players last night, albeit for a half each. We have to play players on form, which Koeman refuses to do. Keane, Schneiderlin, Klaassen, Sandro and Martina all need a spell in the U23s to find their heads, that's if they can get into a winning side.

 

[markjazzbassist]

3 hours ago, wolf8312 said:

 To be honest the negativity is already so intense I guess failure is unavoidable but I certainly dont think sacking him is going to help matters.

The modern game is basically a bad case of going through managers like cheap socks. A few bad results and the fans pile on, the media follow, and before you know where you are, the players themselves have ousted the manager! Its bad for all concerned especially the club itself.

It never used to be like this as the manager of a football team used to be the boss unless he went full Brian Clough or something, but its happening all over these days as the players know they can easily get rid of any manager who so much as dares to criticize them or not give them their own way.

I dont like Mourinho but hes  a good manager (if tactically boring) and obviously got overthrown by the players at Chelsea, as did Moyes at Man U, and Claudio Ranieri at Leicester. Players not playing to the best of their ability, in order to spite or dispose of a manager, should be seen as tantamount to treason, but the players will continue to get away with this kind of behavior, if the fans continue to just passively accept it, and focus on scapegoating the manager as soon as things go wrong.  

I'm not saying that's happening here, but people should be a little more circumspect and stop with the Witch Hunts every god damned week. You'll enjoy the sport more too if you relax a little more. Personally as a lifelong Evertonian I'm so accustomed to misery I haven't even begun to worry yet, and  dont generally expect to win anyway haha!

You gotta give managers a chance to build a team, give new players time to settle down, and gel together which must be difficult when so many new players come in, and established players start getting pushed out. Its bound to create a massive disruption/resentment, and an uneasy atmosphere that probably affects performances especially for the new players. But to call for the managers head this early is crazy, and will just end up being, a self fulfilling prophecy.

His biggest mistake IMO was bringing Rooney back in. I've never had any resentment or ill feeling against Rooney for leaving, but anyone should have been able to see from his last few seasons at Man U that he's coming to the end of a great career and is basically conked out. I couldn't believe it when we re-signed him, and it was then that I seriously questioned Koemans judgement. I dont know how he couldn't have worked out exactly why Mourinho was selling him. That said many people who want Koeman out now, were made up to be getting Rooney back and its my guess that Rooney wont prove to have been a good signing.

I say give him Koeman at least year and if we get relegated you can burn me!

Still unlikely he will survive...

great post, please stick around