January Transfer Window

[Finn balor]

Deir?

[Makis]

If you mean Dier he never wanted to stay.

[Vranny]

32 minutes ago, Finn balor said:

Deir?

I always had the feeling that he was over here as a developmental loan, rather than being a player that Sporting we’re trying to sell. 

[nogs]

16 hours ago, Vranny said:

Realistically, how many of these players that we’ve let go in the last few years have really come back to bite us on the arse?

Gosling ended up a prem footballer, but he wasn’t good enough for us. Mustafi has turned into a good CB, but Moyes wasn’t willing to give him any minutes, so there’s a fat chance he would’ve become the same footballer under him. Shane Duffy is the only one I can think of that could’ve stayed, but again he wouldn’t have got the same opportunities at Everton as he got in the Championship. 

Everyone else had ended up a decent Championship footballer at best (I.e. not good enough for Everton unfortunately). 

If you read my post I was talking specifically about younger ex academy players who are still under 23 and playing at a decent level. 

We've just sold the best player produced by our academy in a decade for an insultingly low fee. On the flipside, we've pissed in excess of £150m up the wall in the past 18 months on some very average players. We have a very good youth system, my view is we're not doing well enough as a club using those resources either to build our own first team or to turn into players we can sell on for big money. 

[pete0]

19 hours ago, Vranny said:

Realistically, how many of these players that we’ve let go in the last few years have really come back to bite us on the arse?

Gosling ended up a prem footballer, but he wasn’t good enough for us. Mustafi has turned into a good CB, but Moyes wasn’t willing to give him any minutes, so there’s a fat chance he would’ve become the same footballer under him. Shane Duffy is the only one I can think of that could’ve stayed, but again he wouldn’t have got the same opportunities at Everton as he got in the Championship. 

Everyone else had ended up a decent Championship footballer at best (I.e. not good enough for Everton unfortunately). 

That's why you let them go to develop. Quite common in Italy. You sell them so the other club are invested in developing him. You put a sensible buy back so the other team makes a decent profit from developing him but if becomes a worldie you won't pay over the odds or missout to a rival. 

We could do with Bidwell atm. Don't see how you can dismiss Mustafi. We could have loaned him out to develop him yer never know. 

Duffy Mustafi the only two who might have been starters but then there's a few others that could have made up the squad. 

Bidwell decent back up. 

Dier, Forshaw, Lundstram all three a head of Gana. 

Vaughan (3rd choice) as crap as Keane is, Vaughan has been the one he struggled the most with.  

[Bailey]

You could probably add Ruddy to the mix. He would have been a good enough 2nd string.

[pete0]

11 minutes ago, Bailey said:

You could probably add Ruddy to the mix. He would have been a good enough 2nd string.

Good spot. Although I do like Robles. 

[Romey 1878]

Bidwell was fucking shite  

[pete0]

13 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

Bidwell was fucking shite  

We've not got a single left back atm though. 

[Romey 1878]

7 minutes ago, pete0 said:

We've not got a single left back atm though. 

That doesn’t make him any good. So we should have kept hold of a shit player for 5 years, even though he wouldn’t have been good enough to play for us, for the time when Baines falls apart in 2017/2018, and still wouldn’t have been good enough to play for us? That’s some pretty fucked up logic. 

Our LB problem isn’t because we let kids go. Our LB problem is because of moronic buying. In this case not buying any fucking one even though it was obvious that Baines wouldn’t be able to play a full season, even without injury. 

[Vranny]

4 hours ago, nogs said:

If you read my post I was talking specifically about younger ex academy players who are still under 23 and playing at a decent level. 

We've just sold the best player produced by our academy in a decade for an insultingly low fee. On the flipside, we've pissed in excess of £150m up the wall in the past 18 months on some very average players. We have a very good youth system, my view is we're not doing well enough as a club using those resources either to build our own first team or to turn into players we can sell on for big money. 

I just think you’re looking at it from a “Football manager” view point. Not every promising youth player makes it as a prem footballer. That’s just not how the system works.

I can name endless amounts of players we’ve hyped as the next youth player to break through (e.g. Vaughan, Baxter, James Wallace, Garbutt, Lundstram, George Green, Ledson), but the reality is their level will only be League 2 to Championship. At best they might get promotion to the prem with one of these Championship teams, but that’s it. 

That people are saying these players could’ve possibly been squad players shows you that they’re not really missed. 

[Vranny]

Also to add to this that doesn’t mean our academy isn’t doing its job. That we’re  able to produce the odd first team player (Barkley, Davies, Kenny, hopefully Dowell) and produce a good amount of players that League 1 and Championship team are actually willing to buy off us is all you can expect your academy to do at most. 

[Quinn31]

2 hours ago, pete0 said:

That's why you let them go to develop. Quite common in Italy. You sell them so the other club are invested in developing him. You put a sensible buy back so the other team makes a decent profit from developing him but if becomes a worldie you won't pay over the odds or missout to a rival. 

We could do with Bidwell atm. Don't see how you can dismiss Mustafi. We could have loaned him out to develop him yer never know. 

Duffy Mustafi the only two who might have been starters but then there's a few others that could have made up the squad. 

Bidwell decent back up. 

Dier, Forshaw, Lundstram all three a head of Gana. 

Vaughan (3rd choice) as crap as Keane is, Vaughan has been the one he struggled the most with.  

If Lundstram, Bidwell, Vaughan were any good, they would've been picked up by a top flight team.... 

Forshaw clearly didn't do quite enough to get signed by another PL team when Boro went down. If Brighton went down, I'm not sure Duffy would get picked up by a PL side. Maybe as cover.

[nogs]

16 hours ago, Vranny said:

I just think you’re looking at it from a “Football manager” view point. Not every promising youth player makes it as a prem footballer. That’s just not how the system works.

Not at all. There are three basic models of success in football - buy your way to titles because you have the spending power to buy the top rated talent, scout your way to success by identifying the best prospects before anyone else, or develop talent yourself through your own academy. 

We do not have the financial muscle to compete with the best on the first, so that's out. On scouting, I'd we've gone backwards badly since Moyes. The returns we've had on performances, league position and sell-on fees for our signings since have been poor, and downright dreadful since Koeman and Walsh arrived. That is a massive problem for a club that does not sit at the top table financially. 

That leaves youth development. Top footballers don't just materialise out of thin air, they are crafted, turning raw talent into the finished product. My point is that there is clearly talent in our youth system, we wouldn't be performing so well at youth level otherwise. So what is missing from the next step? Saying 'they just aren't good enough' is a cop out, as bad as excusing poor signings on bad luck - oh Klaassen just needs time to adjust to the league blah blah. No, he shouldn't have been signed for £20 odd million, especially when we have young players in our own system who could have performed just as well if not better than him over the last 6 months. I'm sorry but the Football Manager view is banging on about x, y, z transfer rumours that are either never going to happen or are not going to improve our football club. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/everton-transfers-sam-allardyce-looks-14127455

[Vranny]

@nogsI just don’t think there’s realistically anymore the club can be doing when it comes to bringing through academy and youth players, bar playing the complete u-21 team in the prem. We’re currently bringing through Kenny, Holgate, Beni, Davies, Lookman, Vlasic, DCL (albeit Lookman and Vlasic could be getting more of a look in) and loaning out other top talent like Dowell, Williams and Robinson. Is there a Premier League with more youth in it’s match day squads?

The reality of Liam Walsh is that he played 2 or 3 games in about 3 months for Birmingham while on loan. On the flip side Dowell and Williams have been guaranteed starters for better Championship sides, while Robinson has also broken into the Bolton side after a month or so. 

Obviously with Klaasen we spent $20M+ on him because the top brass thought he’d be providing that much value on the field. That he hasn’t is down to poor scouting/the board/shit luck and hasn’t really got anything to do with youth development. 

[sacitunal]

On 04.01.2018 at 17:00, Quinn31 said:

A Besiktas fan joins and now a Galatasaray fan? Watch out USA, pretty soon there's gonna be a huge Turkish contingent on this board! haha.

Im not Besiktas fan..ım Galatasaray fan..but ı love quality football and Cenk is a quality player. Also now ım an Everton fan because of Cenk;) 

With that, be sure 80 million Turks will support Everton

[rubecula]

1 hour ago, sacitunal said:

Im not Besiktas fan..ım Galatasaray fan..but ı love quality football and Cenk is a quality player. Also now ım an Everton fan because of Cenk;) 

With that, be sure 80 million Turks will support Everton

nearly as many as the Chinese fans we used to have when Li Ti played for us 

[sacitunal]

55 minutes ago, rubecula said:

nearly as many as the Chinese fans we used to have when Li Ti played for us 

 

brother, Cenks transfer is not just to sell forms and shırts, believe me, it is a real footballer, the most important feature is he's not lazy like other turkish footballers, because  infrastructure of him is from Germany , like mesut özil and emre can , also Everton manager can think about Arda Turan

[nogs]

9 hours ago, Vranny said:

@nogs

Obviously with Klaasen we spent $20M+ on him because the top brass thought he’d be providing that much value on the field. That he hasn’t is down to poor scouting/the board/shit luck and hasn’t really got anything to do with youth development. 

I'd say there is more we can be doing. Look at Southampton - they are very clever at blooding kids early and then being able to sell for a big fee. We'll have got fuck all for Walsh. That step of being able to market a player as Premiership standard rather than Championship standard is huge financially, even though ability wise the gap isn'tt that big. 

I look at the way we are being run and I see a club that is poor on the business and strategic side of things. We've just been embarrassed over Barkley, and yes I do think signings like Klaassen have everything to do with youth development, or rather a lack of trust in it. We've ended up playing so many kids because so many signings have flopped in the past two years. Our first thought is throw cash around, whereas we could have saved a shit load of money not signing some of the lemons we have brought in on 100k plus wages and giving hungry, talented youth players a chance. Which, as you rightly point out, we are doing anyway, because of how poor so many new arrivals have been. 

Key point being, very little we do as a club seems to be very smart or clearly planned out. 

[Finn balor]

We are shifting a few out. Jones, Walsh, Barkley, mirrallas. Would like to see niasse, besic go aswell 

[markjazzbassist]

1 hour ago, Finn balor said:

We are shifting a few out. Jones, Walsh, Barkley, mirrallas. Would like to see niasse, besic go aswell 

i agree if we aren't expecting europa league (ie sam will leave at the end of the season) but if he's trying to prove himself, why get rid now when well have to bring more in for the summer?  

[Finn balor]

We need a complete clear out. The squad is so imbalanced 

[StevO]

As Matt will tell us, yes we need to lose some players but we need to keep squad disruption to a minimum. 

[Cornish Steve]

On 1/8/2018 at 10:19, nogs said:

Not at all. There are three basic models of success in football - buy your way to titles because you have the spending power to buy the top rated talent, scout your way to success by identifying the best prospects before anyone else, or develop talent yourself through your own academy. 

We do not have the financial muscle to compete with the best on the first, so that's out. On scouting, I'd we've gone backwards badly since Moyes. The returns we've had on performances, league position and sell-on fees for our signings since have been poor, and downright dreadful since Koeman and Walsh arrived. That is a massive problem for a club that does not sit at the top table financially. 

That leaves youth development. Top footballers don't just materialise out of thin air, they are crafted, turning raw talent into the finished product. My point is that there is clearly talent in our youth system, we wouldn't be performing so well at youth level otherwise. So what is missing from the next step? Saying 'they just aren't good enough' is a cop out, as bad as excusing poor signings on bad luck - oh Klaassen just needs time to adjust to the league blah blah. No, he shouldn't have been signed for £20 odd million, especially when we have young players in our own system who could have performed just as well if not better than him over the last 6 months. I'm sorry but the Football Manager view is banging on about x, y, z transfer rumours that are either never going to happen or are not going to improve our football club. 

These models are not mutually exclusive: It's certainly possible to have an insightful scouting network and a strong youth program, and I believe we do follow this two-pronged approach. I wouldn't say we've gone backwards since Moyes. Lukaku turned out to be a bargain. Barry was a great signing, and so was McCarthy (despite his recent injury problems). Funes Mori was a buy from out of the blue. Among the younger players, there's John Stones (I'm including him because Moyes never really played him), Lookman, and DC-L. For sure, some signings didn't pan out at all (Eto'o comes to mind), but that's the nature of taking risks. I do agree that Koeman's recruitment decisions, with some notable exceptions, were none too good.

[nogs]

3 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

These models are not mutually exclusive: It's certainly possible to have an insightful scouting network and a strong youth program, and I believe we do follow this two-pronged approach. I wouldn't say we've gone backwards since Moyes. Lukaku turned out to be a bargain. Barry was a great signing, and so was McCarthy (despite his recent injury problems). Funes Mori was a buy from out of the blue. Among the younger players, there's John Stones (I'm including him because Moyes never really played him), Lookman, and DC-L. For sure, some signings didn't pan out at all (Eto'o comes to mind), but that's the nature of taking risks. I do agree that Koeman's recruitment decisions, with some notable exceptions, were none too good.

Stones was still a Moyes signing. I think the way Moyes ran the scouting operation was one of his great strengths. Artea, Cahill , Pienaar, Jags, Baines, Coleman - they formed the spine of a decent side for years. How much service have we had from the names you mention? 3 seasons tops? You can hardly call McCarthy and Mori successes with their injury records, and Lookman has hardly set the world alight for a £10m teenager. 

[Matt]

8 hours ago, StevO said:

As Matt will tell us, yes we need to lose some players but we need to keep squad disruption to a minimum. 

 I thought I was posting that in invisible ink!

[StevO]

If only Ronald ready more of your posts in the summer 😂

[Matt]

1 hour ago, StevO said:

If only Ronald ready more of your posts in the summer 😂

And a few posters on here, doesn't seem the penny dropped  

[rubecula]

complete clear out and start again,  (I wonder how much the Barca first team would cost to buy?)