Richarlison

[Bill]

1. I hope people are not getting carried away with this start, the two cup games were against almost non league teams, and in the West Brom game we struggled until they went down to 10 men.
2. I need another half a dozen games before I start going overboard.

 PS .... Don't know where the numbers came from. 

[Shukes]

56 minutes ago, Bill said:

1. I hope people are not getting carried away with this start, the two cup games were against almost non league teams, and in the West Brom game we struggled until they went down to 10 men.
2. I need another half a dozen games before I start going overboard.

 PS .... Don't know where the numbers came from. 

I’m not going overboard, I just see a slowly progressing solid forward there. I have been saying it since his first season to be fair, nothing new because he has scored a few.

Difference is some can see how important he has been when he isn’t scoring. It’s his running and work that creates spaces for other players as he takes up defenders. I think we have a lot of new age supporters who want forwards to score goals, and if they don’t... there’s an issue.

Im old school and recognise that through the years Everton have had many strikers/Forwards that are in glorious display around Goodison.... that simply didn’t score 25+ a season. 
 

look at our team in the 80’s. goals were shared around so many players as the forwards worked their asses of and made space and opportunities for the other players. This is where I see DCL.

[Bill]

Shukes, its not a criticism against any one player, I'm on about the team collectively.

I'm going to wait a while before I get too excited about our performances. 

[Sibdane]

5 hours ago, Hafnia said:

Once upon a time there was a belief on this forum that you couldn't get a hardworking goalscorer..... We have 2 now and it's intoxicating to watch.

One touch lay offs, dragging defenders all over the place, bringing midfielders into the attack and look what happens .... We score more goals as a team.  Madness. 

I don't think anyone on this forum has said that a hard-working goal-scorer isn't possible. 

[Hafnia]

23 minutes ago, Sibdane said:

I don't think anyone on this forum has said that a hard-working goal-scorer isn't possible. 

Really?  For everyone's sanity I'll just leave you to go and trawl through pages of arguments about a player who is playing in the Italian league.... 

The age old argument was "ok let's just get some hardworking players in who don't score and see how we end up"

My argument was that the two qualities aren't mutually exclusive.  It was as if your option was Marcus bent or Lukaku - no such thing as a Diego Costa, Suarez, Rooney. 

Richarlison gave possibly the best hybrid performance I've seen last night of a player who scores but creates and also works.  He's got potential for PFA player of the year..... 

[Sibdane]

35 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Really?  For everyone's sanity I'll just leave you to go and trawl through pages of arguments about a player who is playing in the Italian league.... 

The age old argument was "ok let's just get some hardworking players in who don't score and see how we end up"

My argument was that the two qualities aren't mutually exclusive.  It was as if your option was Marcus bent or Lukaku - no such thing as a Diego Costa, Suarez, Rooney. 

Richarlison gave possibly the best hybrid performance I've seen last night of a player who scores but creates and also works.  He's got potential for PFA player of the year..... 

No, people accepted that Lukaku wasn't a hard-working striker, not that the two were mutually exclusive. 

[Hafnia]

13 minutes ago, Sibdane said:

No, people accepted that Lukaku wasn't a hard-working striker, not that the two were mutually exclusive. 

It wasn't just about hard work.... It was about technical quality, movement etc.

The argument was to keep a goalscorer because as long as he scores goals Vs who else would you get. 

If inter offered Lukaku in a straight swap for Richarlison would you take it? 

[Sibdane]

Just now, Hafnia said:

It wasn't just about hard work.... It was about technical quality, movement etc.

The argument was to keep a goalscorer because as long as he scores goals Vs who else would you get. 

If inter offered Lukaku in a straight swap for Richarlison would you take it? 

Of course not. That's not my point though is it?

[Hafnia]

2 minutes ago, Sibdane said:

Of course not. That's not my point though is it?

For me it is yeah. But I appreciate you being honest and not arguing the alternative just for the hell of it. 

Excuse after excuse was made for Lukaku because he scored goals and literally offered nothing else and on a bad day left us facing wave after wave of counter attacks. 

To which the defense was "you would rather have a forward running channels rather than scoring goals" ....  Numerous times.  Can't quote them unless the thread is unlocked which I'm happy to leave locked. 

We now have 2 bonafide striker options who run channels, are technically strong, and score goals. 

My fear is that Richarlison gets targeted by Barcelona or Real Madrid.  He is top top quality. Potentially the best player we've had in decades. 

[Sibdane]

On 24/09/2020 at 11:16, Hafnia said:

For me it is yeah. But I appreciate you being honest and not arguing the alternative just for the hell of it. 

Excuse after excuse was made for Lukaku because he scored goals and literally offered nothing else and on a bad day left us facing wave after wave of counter attacks. 

To which the defense was "you would rather have a forward running channels rather than scoring goals" ....  Numerous times.  Can't quote them unless the thread is unlocked which I'm happy to leave locked. 

We now have 2 bonafide striker options who run channels, are technically strong, and score goals. 

My fear is that Richarlison gets targeted by Barcelona or Real Madrid.  He is top top quality. Potentially the best player we've had in decades. 

No need to quote them. 

We've moved on from Lukaku. I wish you would too instead of taking every instance to have a swipe at him to try and prove yourself right though. 

[Hafnia]

1 minute ago, Sibdane said:

No need to quote them. 

We've moved on for Lukaku. I wish you would too instead of taking every instance to have a swipe at him to try and prove yourself right though. 

No need to prove myself right. He's doing that for me.

My point isn't necessarily specific to Lukaku it's specific to the importance of goalscorers having a rounded game ... Something Ancellotti stated after lockdown when DCL wasn't scoring. 

[SpartyBlue]

1 hour ago, Hafnia said:

No need to prove myself right. He's doing that for me.

My point isn't necessarily specific to Lukaku it's specific to the importance of goalscorers having a rounded game ... Something Ancellotti stated after lockdown when DCL wasn't scoring. 

Sliding scale. The more you score the less  people will care about a player being well rounded. If you’re bagging 20+ goals in the league routinely I’m not too bothered if you can’t defend or hold the ball great. If you’re more of a middling finisher (like DCL has been in his career so far) you’d better have some other attributes. 

[Bailey]

3 hours ago, Bill said:

Shukes, its not a criticism against any one player, I'm on about the team collectively.

I'm going to wait a while before I get too excited about our performances. 

I agree but after years of shite, it is nice to feel a little excited about the football we are playing and the attitude to go with it.

The Palace game will be really interesting. They are routinely a pain to the best sides. Dispatch them and it could get really exciting!

5 minutes ago, SpartyBlue said:

Sliding scale. The more you score the less  people will care about a player being well rounded. If you’re bagging 20+ goals in the league routinely I’m not too bothered if you can’t defend or hold the ball great. If you’re more of a middling finisher (like DCL has been in his career so far) you’d better have some other attributes. 

Spot on. Aguero is one of the best strikers of our time playing in one of the highest intensity teams in the league and he is hardly breaking a sweat most games.

The ironic thing about this debate though is that now DCL is scoring more he is doing less and less running. His touch is more under pressure as he is working in tighter areas and he contributes sporadically to the team performance rather than across the whole 90 minutes. Essentially in order for DCL to be the player he is becoming, he has adapted his game to be more like Lukaku. 

[MC11]

8 hours ago, Hafnia said:

Once upon a time there was a belief on this forum that you couldn't get a hardworking goalscorer..... We have 2 now and it's intoxicating to watch.

One touch lay offs, dragging defenders all over the place, bringing midfielders into the attack and look what happens .... We score more goals as a team.  Madness. 

Let it go mate ffs. I ain’t been on here in a long time and he’s still taking digs. The best striker we’ve had in the premiership era. 

[SpartyBlue]

12 minutes ago, Bailey said:

I agree but after years of shite, it is nice to feel a little excited about the football we are playing and the attitude to go with it.

The Palace game will be really interesting. They are routinely a pain to the best sides. Dispatch them and it could get really exciting!

Spot on. Aguero is one of the best strikers of our time playing in one of the highest intensity teams in the league and he is hardly breaking a sweat most games.

The ironic thing about this debate though is that now DCL is scoring more he is doing less and less running. His touch is more under pressure as he is working in tighter areas and he contributes sporadically to the team performance rather than across the whole 90 minutes. Essentially in order for DCL to be the player he is becoming, he has adapted his game to be more like Lukaku. 

Product of having a better team around him. A stronger midfield means he should have to do less on his own to hold the ball as we hoof it up the field. This should allow him to focus more on his actual job of scoring goals by becoming more of a poacher, as you describe.

[MC11]

7 hours ago, Bill said:

1. I hope people are not getting carried away with this start, the two cup games were against almost non league teams, and in the West Brom game we struggled until they went down to 10 men.
2. I need another half a dozen games before I start going overboard.

 PS .... Don't know where the numbers came from. 

We usually struggle in the cup against these teams. We’ve looked a total other level to both. 

[Hafnia]

16 minutes ago, Bailey said:

I agree but after years of shite, it is nice to feel a little excited about the football we are playing and the attitude to go with it.

The Palace game will be really interesting. They are routinely a pain to the best sides. Dispatch them and it could get really exciting!

Spot on. Aguero is one of the best strikers of our time playing in one of the highest intensity teams in the league and he is hardly breaking a sweat most games.

The ironic thing about this debate though is that now DCL is scoring more he is doing less and less running. His touch is more under pressure as he is working in tighter areas and he contributes sporadically to the team performance rather than across the whole 90 minutes. Essentially in order for DCL to be the player he is becoming, he has adapted his game to be more like Lukaku. 

Bailey ... Pep threatened Aguero with being dropped and sold and Jesus take his place.  He was averaging 9km per match under Pellegrini, under pep in his 30s he was averaging 10k a match.  The best natural finisher in the business over the past 10 years was told he would be dropped if he didn't do more. 

Again with DCL. He's working as hard but working smarter - yes he's in the box on the end of things.... How does he get there after having been pulling a defender deep or left?  He was singled out against spurs for single handedly dragging Dier and Toby all over the place.  He's putting in more yards now as he's actually getting into the box after doing the dirty work.  

[Hafnia]

21 minutes ago, MC11 said:

Let it go mate ffs. I ain’t been on here in a long time and he’s still taking digs. The best striker we’ve had in the premiership era. 

Better than Rooney? No.  DCL will eclipse him, Richarlison will score 15+ from out side and a further 10 in assists. 

As a finisher Rom was a talent. Sadly this was often against lesser teams as he lacked the heart to do the hard yards and scrap for the margins against better players. 

Anyway.... My point in all this was that we are far better for having forwards who are more rounded. 

 

[Bailey]

30 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Bailey ... Pep threatened Aguero with being dropped and sold and Jesus take his place.  He was averaging 9km per match under Pellegrini, under pep in his 30s he was averaging 10k a match.  The best natural finisher in the business over the past 10 years was told he would be dropped if he didn't do more. 

Again with DCL. He's working as hard but working smarter - yes he's in the box on the end of things.... How does he get there after having been pulling a defender deep or left?  He was singled out against spurs for single handedly dragging Dier and Toby all over the place.  He's putting in more yards now as he's actually getting into the box after doing the dirty work.  

Lukaku 2018/19 = average of 9.86km per game.

Aguero 2018/19 = 9.75km per game.

The rest I don't agree with. He has always done that.

 

[Hafnia]

10 minutes ago, Bailey said:

Lukaku 2018/19 = average of 9.86km per game.

Aguero 2018/19 = 9.75km per game.

The rest I don't agree with. He has always done that.

 

Lukaku was 9.44km per game.

https://onefootball.com/en/news/man-uniteds-running-stats-for-201819-make-interesting-reading-25810685

Bear in mind also that Aguero was 31 and Lukaku 26 years old. 

The higher possession numbers greatly enhance the value of Agueros output. Man city in the title winning season more often had their front 3 camped in the opponents half do covering that distance when in a dominant side is huge. 

 

[Shukes]

5 hours ago, Bill said:

Shukes, its not a criticism against any one player, I'm on about the team collectively.

I'm going to wait a while before I get too excited about our performances. 

No I get where your coming from. We’re all on a high at the moment because we’re not used to winning back to back games. 
Each game I’m waiting for the inevitable fall, but I’m enjoying it while we’re winning

[Bailey]

Personally I would expect a player half the size to run further. I dont agree with your tactical analysis either when comparing the turgid Man Utd side at the time with a vibrant City side winning the league. Much easier to take chances with runs when you think your team mates will find you with a pass!

[Shukes]

I think there’s more obsession with Haf mentioning L, than there is of Haf having an obsession with L!

Why are people so precious over it haha. 
 

What thread we in again? 

[Bailey]

1 minute ago, Shukes said:

I think there’s more obsession with Haf mentioning L, than there is of Haf having an obsession with L!

Why are people so precious over it haha. 
 

What thread we in again? 

Sometimes I just cant resist and then after a couple of replies I have my head in my hands rocking in the corner again... 

Glutton for punishment!

[Sibdane]

1 hour ago, Shukes said:

I think there’s more obsession with Haf mentioning L, than there is of Haf having an obsession with L!

Why are people so precious over it haha. 
 

What thread we in again? 

I think it's 50/50!

[Hafnia]

2 hours ago, Shukes said:

I think there’s more obsession with Haf mentioning L, than there is of Haf having an obsession with L!

Why are people so precious over it haha. 
 

What thread we in again? 

100% always been that way. 

[Palfy]

10 hours ago, Shukes said:

I think there’s more obsession with Haf mentioning L, than there is of Haf having an obsession with L!

Why are people so precious over it haha. 
 

What thread we in again? 

I agree with that, I just find it a shame that I’m not given the same response when I mention Gona. 
You know the one the midfielder who has gone down in TT folklore as the best midfielder we’ve had in years, the one who’s always mentioned when we lose a game, with the obligatory “ we miss Gona” as if people have forgotten how many games we were slaughtered in with him in the team, the one that the PSG supporters trash the one that there management have realised isn’t the real deal. 
So yes Haf has got some valid points as to why he doesn’t rate Lukaku, the striker that has been our most prolific scorer in more years than I care to remember, shit attitude for Lukaku, and no vision or ability with the ball for Gona. 
Never mind what thread are we in what fucking parallel universe are we in in which  people believe we miss Gona. 
I’m in the French camp 100% on this. 

[Shukes]

Ye but Haf generally speaks about facts ect.... whereas you pull stuff from your ass

[Hafnia]

7 hours ago, Palfy said:

I agree with that, I just find it a shame that I’m not given the same response when I mention Gona. 
You know the one the midfielder who has gone down in TT folklore as the best midfielder we’ve had in years, the one who’s always mentioned when we lose a game, with the obligatory “ we miss Gona” as if people have forgotten how many games we were slaughtered in with him in the team, the one that the PSG supporters trash the one that there management have realised isn’t the real deal. 
So yes Haf has got some valid points as to why he doesn’t rate Lukaku, the striker that has been our most prolific scorer in more years than I care to remember, shit attitude for Lukaku, and no vision or ability with the ball for Gona. 
Never mind what thread are we in what fucking parallel universe are we in in which  people believe we miss Gona. 
I’m in the French camp 100% on this. 

Shut up Palf.... I'm hogging this one for myself. 

[Palfy]

11 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Shut up Palf.... I'm hogging this one for myself.