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Richarlison

duncanmckenzieismagic
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duncanmckenzieismagic
duncanmckenzieismagic
Zoo 2.0
Zoo 2.0
Matt
Matt

Jesus. I don’t like is attitude either and his form has been poor but that’s largely down to bad tactics playing him out of position, plus the team doing not well, particularly midfield. It was o

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  • 2 weeks later...
Hafnia Grand Master

Hafnia

Posted
Posted
29 minutes ago, Matt said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/63056129

Aren't we supposed to be improving as a species? Disgusting behaviour. 

It’s ok Matt, we do things like take a knee, wear armbands, have managers talk about how terrible it is etc.

I mean… what else can we do, maybe throw a bit more tokenism at it, have some faux outrage and give the virtue signallers a platform.

I despair.  We live in a society where people advertise “look how diverse I am” - yet we do nothing to punish scum and deter scummy behaviour. 

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RPG Mentor

RPG

Posted
Posted
14 hours ago, Zoo 2.0 said:

Racism will never end.

(sadly).

Coming from a military background (1980's era) where micky taking was to the point, witty but never (or extremely rarely) given or taken in a deliberately offensive/offended way, I sometimes wonder if we have somehow lost sight of what we are trying to achieve here. We would verbally give each other unfettered 'banter' (using terminology that would give the woke brigade palpitations today) throughout our working life but we were all sure in the knowledge that we would look out for each other whenever the occasion required it, be it in uniform, at the local pubs and clubs or anywhere else in between and, consequently, individual morale and unit efficiency was always very good. No individual or group of any kind was constantly picked on. We wouldn't have stood for that but you had to learn how to take it as well as give it.

The way Richarlison was treated was disgraceful. Anything like that in 'my day' would have been dealt with immediately, forcefully and effectively 'in house' and the perpetrator would have known, without a shadow of a doubt, that he was on a yellow card. The PC brigade have pretty much removed that 'nip it in the bud' option from the table today, I think. Some may argue that that is a good thing but I don't agree.

Maliciously intended, racist comments or actions have no place whatsoever in a civilised society but we seem to have spawned a generation of 'professionally offended' people who try to play the 'I'm offended' card to try to manipulate everyone else in a very 'passive/aggressive'  and virtue signalling manner which I also have no time for.

I know it is a very simplistic (and even obtuse) analogy but I am reminded of the advice I was given when preparing for a Primary School exam - 'It's better to attempt 100 questions and get 80 correct than to attempt 60, get them all correct but then run out of time and fail to achieve the pass mark of 70.'  It seems to me that there are people out there (not on this thread I hope) who would rather we attempted no questions so that we don't risk giving any 'wrong' answers. We have to find a balance if we wish to live in a truly harmonious and improving society and I don't see us getting any closer to a common sense solution. I find this to be both sad and worrying.

Humour can be an important tool in effective communication and to remove it from the anti racism tool box could be likened to fighting with one hand tied behind your back. Just as some people are tall, short, blond, ginger, bald, thin, fat etc, so we all come in different colours. That in itself is fantastic. What is not so fantastic is the way that as soon as gentle humour involving race is mentioned, it sends some people on a real , and invariably, counter productive, OTT reaction. I am 60, used to be obese and am nearly bald. When people made a mildly disparaging reference to that I would usually respond (politely and while smiling) with something like 'Well, at least I still have my natural charm and charisma. How the hell do you cope?' Today's response is more likely to be an angry sentence involving such phrases as 'hate speech,' 'I'm offended,' and 'police' which I honestly do not understand and can see no good coming from.

I have no idea what the solution is. I am not even sure we are even looking in the right place any longer.

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Matt Grand Master

Matt

Posted
Posted
47 minutes ago, RPG said:

Coming from a military background (1980's era) where micky taking was to the point, witty but never (or extremely rarely) given or taken in a deliberately offensive/offended way, I sometimes wonder if we have somehow lost sight of what we are trying to achieve here. We would verbally give each other unfettered 'banter' (using terminology that would give the woke brigade palpitations today) throughout our working life but we were all sure in the knowledge that we would look out for each other whenever the occasion required it, be it in uniform, at the local pubs and clubs or anywhere else in between and, consequently, individual morale and unit efficiency was always very good. No individual or group of any kind was constantly picked on. We wouldn't have stood for that but you had to learn how to take it as well as give it.

The way Richarlison was treated was disgraceful. Anything like that in 'my day' would have been dealt with immediately, forcefully and effectively 'in house' and the perpetrator would have known, without a shadow of a doubt, that he was on a yellow card. The PC brigade have pretty much removed that 'nip it in the bud' option from the table today, I think. Some may argue that that is a good thing but I don't agree.

Maliciously intended, racist comments or actions have no place whatsoever in a civilised society but we seem to have spawned a generation of 'professionally offended' people who try to play the 'I'm offended' card to try to manipulate everyone else in a very 'passive/aggressive'  and virtue signalling manner which I also have no time for.

I know it is a very simplistic (and even obtuse) analogy but I am reminded of the advice I was given when preparing for a Primary School exam - 'It's better to attempt 100 questions and get 80 correct than to attempt 60, get them all correct but then run out of time and fail to achieve the pass mark of 70.'  It seems to me that there are people out there (not on this thread I hope) who would rather we attempted no questions so that we don't risk getting any wrong. We have to find a balance if we wish to live in a truly harmonious and improving society and I don't see us getting any closer to a common sense solution. I find this to be both sad and worrying.

Humour is an important tool in effective communication and just as some people are tall, short, blond, ginger, bald etc, so we all come in different colours. That in itself is fantastic. What is not so fantastic is the way that as soon as gentle humour involving race is mentioned, it sends some people on a real , and invariably, counter productive, OTT reaction.

I have no idea what the solution is. I am not even sure we are even looking in the right place any longer.

Good place to start is to stop with woke/PC/etc. It's not remotely relevant and only splits the efforts for the cause whilst detracting from it. Same goes the other way. It needs a united response.

"Tokenism" and action, from all. "Tokenism" is like advertising, to get the ideal represented and in people's minds. It's a way of visually identifying the goal. Without action to back it up, it's largely meaningless at best, self destructive at worst. Action requires this symbol so that it has an end goal. Actions without an end goal creates chaos, leads to loss of money and time creating more frustration and resentment. 

It's not 1 or the other. It needs a unified approach and for the more sensitive (on both sides of the spectrum) to shut the fuck up, get some context and work together, through gritted teeth if needed. 

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Hafnia Grand Master

Hafnia

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, Matt said:

Good place to start is to stop with woke/PC/etc. It's not remotely relevant and only splits the efforts for the cause whilst detracting from it. Same goes the other way. It needs a united response.

"Tokenism" and action, from all. "Tokenism" is like advertising, to get the ideal represented and in people's minds. It's a way of visually identifying the goal. Without action to back it up, it's largely meaningless at best, self destructive at worst. Action requires this symbol so that it has an end goal. Actions without an end goal creates chaos, leads to loss of money and time creating more frustration and resentment. 

It's not 1 or the other. It needs a unified approach and for the more sensitive (on both sides of the spectrum) to shut the fuck up, get some context and work together, through gritted teeth if needed. 

Careful Matt, people may think you aren’t arsed as they leisurely add pronouns, flags, rainbows, to their bios whilst taking knees having probably been annoyed at Colin kapearnik a few years back before it caught on. 
 

all I can do is teach my children to treat everyone the same, show contempt for hate, and hope that a zero tolerance approach is adopted to the scum out there. Sadly that costs money one way or another so it won’t happen. 

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RPG Mentor

RPG

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Matt said:

Good place to start is to stop with woke/PC/etc. It's not remotely relevant and only splits the efforts for the cause whilst detracting from it. Same goes the other way. It needs a united response.

"Tokenism" and action, from all. "Tokenism" is like advertising, to get the ideal represented and in people's minds. It's a way of visually identifying the goal. Without action to back it up, it's largely meaningless at best, self destructive at worst. Action requires this symbol so that it has an end goal. Actions without an end goal creates chaos, leads to loss of money and time creating more frustration and resentment. 

It's not 1 or the other. It needs a unified approach and for the more sensitive (on both sides of the spectrum) to shut the fuck up, get some context and work together, through gritted teeth if needed. 

But you see, that's one of the many points. As soon as any terminology rattled someone's cage we didn't 'cancel' the term, we continued using it (no more and no less than before) to get them used to the fact that people sometimes say things you don't want to hear and you just have to deal with it internally. Obviously there were limits and common sense (wisdom of the crowd) invariably prevailed. People either developed thick skin or didn't let their overly sensitive nature get the better of them - while giving back as good as they got. I get the argument that society has supposedly 'moved on' and such behaviour is now outdated but the very fact that we are having this conversation strongly suggests that actually, society hasn't really moved on at all.

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Matt Grand Master

Matt

Posted
Posted
Just now, Hafnia said:

Careful Matt, people may think you aren’t arsed as they leisurely add pronouns, flags, rainbows, to their bios whilst taking knees having probably been annoyed at Colin kapearnik a few years back before it caught on. 
 

all I can do is teach my children to treat everyone the same, show contempt for hate, and hope that a zero tolerance approach is adopted to the scum out there. Sadly that costs money one way or another so it won’t happen. 

Those people can fuck off then, they're not helping. 

Was watching an interview with Malala Yousafzai, she summed it up perfectly. Education. Its that simple. It's just not cost effective and its not quick. 

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Matt Grand Master

Matt

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, RPG said:

But you see, that's one of the many points. As soon as any terminology rattled someone's cage we didn't 'cancel' the term, we continued using it (no more and no less than before) to get them used to the fact that people sometimes say things you don't want to hear and you just have to deal with it internally. Obviously there were limits and common sense (wisdom of the crowd) invariably prevailed. People either developed thick skin or didn't let their overly sensitive nature get the better of them - while giving back as good as they got. I get the argument that society has supposedly 'moved on' and such behaviour is now outdated but the very fact that we are having this conversation strongly suggests that actually, society hasn't really moved on at all.

Didn't say cancel it, I said stop using it when it brings nothing to the argument but division. Use it all you like, it can be accurate. But it's a distraction in this kind of debate. 

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RPG Mentor

RPG

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, Matt said:

Didn't say cancel it, I said stop using it when it brings nothing to the argument but division. Use it all you like, it can be accurate. But it's a distraction in this kind of debate. 

Not bringing division Matt. Just balance, I hope.

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Matt Grand Master

Matt

Posted
Posted
36 minutes ago, RPG said:

Not bringing division Matt. Just balance, I hope.

By using the terms woke/PC etc it naturally puts some people on edge without really adding value. Just doesn't need to be mentioned in a racism discussion in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, the whole woke/PC stuff is a debate I can get into but it would detract from the important point, so I'll stop :)

 

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Btay Grand Master

Btay

Posted
Posted
On 29/09/2022 at 21:36, Hafnia said:

Careful Matt, people may think you aren’t arsed as they leisurely add pronouns, flags, rainbows, to their bios whilst taking knees having probably been annoyed at Colin kapearnik a few years back before it caught on. 
 

all I can do is teach my children to treat everyone the same, show contempt for hate, and hope that a zero tolerance approach is adopted to the scum out there. Sadly that costs money one way or another so it won’t happen. 

Sadly the older I get the more I learn & see these values are not taught as much as one would expect.

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