Cenk Tosun

[Matt]

8 minutes ago, StevO said:

Me too, Gylfi covers a lot of ground (didn’t he do more running than anyone in the premier league for a couple of seasons) he may not have blistering pace but does his fair share of pressing for me. 

And he scored that goal at Leicester, he’s just lovely.

That turn... second favourite Everton goal for me. 

[StevO]

49 minutes ago, Matt said:

That turn... second favourite Everton goal for me. 

Second behind?

[Matt]

25 minutes ago, StevO said:

Second behind?

Ossie vs Larissa, not because Ossie scores it but because it was a perfect counter attack

[Bailey]

3 hours ago, Matt said:

Niasse - 39 apps 9 goals. That was 17/18 season were he had a goals per game of less that 1 in 3 in the league (8 in 22 apps, not bad really) and after his extradition under Koeman

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oumar_Niasse

Tosun - 43 apps 9 goals. Never scored more than 5 in either of his seasons with us in the league  

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenk_Tosun

So this whole argument of not being given a chance doesn’t hold up. If anything Tosun has been given more of a chance because at least he wasn’t treated the way Niasse was and was able to train with the squad to make a case for himself. 

Then for the purely practical reason MJB pointed out - Niasses wages are high but in 10 months he’s off on a free and seems to even be less than Tosun. 

https://www.spotrac.com/epl/everton-f.c/payroll/

So, Tosun has had more of a chance, scored the same amount of league goals in more apps over 2 season than Niasse managed in 1, has higher wages and a higher sell on value, is slower than Niasse where speed is crucial for our tactics, and (although I can’t find the link again) Niasse has been responsible for us winning more points, often crucial goals. 

But yeah let’s get rid of Niasse because he’s a “bumbling mad man”, or to put it more accurately, I’d say unorthodox because, whilst he’s not a player that’s particularly nice to watch, he gets the job done and works his arse off...

 

We might as well stick him in ahead of DCL then too. The argument for DCL is that he brings more to the team than goals. That same argument applies to Tosun but less so and the only argument for Niasse is that he has shown in one shite season that he can score goals. He didn't prove it at Cardiff and he only had limited success at Hull. 

You ask the players who they would rather play alongside and I bet you all of them would pick Tosun over Niasse.

 

[Wiggytop]

I'd take the money for Tosun if it's on the table, I do like him but he's never done enough for me, and as we all know isn't fast enough for our style of play. DCL, Kean, Niasse ( for all his weird qualities )  main stricken son til January, Richarlison or Thoe can also main there if needed. I still think we could use an older CF for a season or two to help the younger ones on the pitch, as much as I dislike him as a person Vardy has pace, positional nous and can hit the net, so someone like that would be great IMO.

[Matt]

16 minutes ago, Bailey said:

We might as well stick him in ahead of DCL then too. The argument for DCL is that he brings more to the team than goals. That same argument applies to Tosun but less so and the only argument for Niasse is that he has shown in one shite season that he can score goals. He didn't prove it at Cardiff and he only had limited success at Hull. 

You ask the players who they would rather play alongside and I bet you all of them would pick Tosun over Niasse.

 

The only thing a striker has shown is that he can score goals. Is that you Haf? 

I can’t ask the players just like you can’t read their minds, so that statement is as pointless. 

I get the play style thing, I really do, so there I cannot really argue because whilst facts show the individual contributions, you’re right that it’s not representative of the overall contribution to the team (though I don’t remember Tosun contributing that much). I would still argue the pressing and workrate of Niasse is much better than Tosun though and more suited to the high press. 

One thing that cannot be argued is the financial part. 

[Shukes]

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

We might as well stick him in ahead of DCL then too. The argument for DCL is that he brings more to the team than goals. That same argument applies to Tosun but less so and the only argument for Niasse is that he has shown in one shite season that he can score goals. He didn't prove it at Cardiff and he only had limited success at Hull. 

You ask the players who they would rather play alongside and I bet you all of them would pick Tosun over Niasse.

 

Well no. I think Matt is just showing that goals against minutes ratio, Niasse is better.

And DCL is ahead of both of them isn’t he?  Which would mean the exact opposite. We want to keep our better forwards, and get rid of the least effective one.

Or at least I think that’s what the stats were meaning to portray not like I ever get anything wrong is it!

[Matt]

21 minutes ago, Shukes said:

Well no. I think Matt is just showing that goals against minutes ratio, Niasse is better.

And DCL is ahead of both of them isn’t he?  Which would mean the exact opposite. We want to keep our better forwards, and get rid of the least effective one.

Or at least I think that’s what the stats were meaning to portray not like I ever get anything wrong is it!

Exactly. I’ll admit, I was surprised, and acknowledge that it’s not a completely fair comparison because of the timings. But still, Niasse has a better goal ratio for the team and only 1 assist less. 

[markjazzbassist]

5 hours ago, Matt said:

Niasse - 39 apps 9 goals. That was 17/18 season were he had a goals per game of less that 1 in 3 in the league (8 in 22 apps, not bad really) and after his extradition under Koeman

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oumar_Niasse

Tosun - 43 apps 9 goals. Never scored more than 5 in either of his seasons with us in the league  

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenk_Tosun

So this whole argument of not being given a chance doesn’t hold up. If anything Tosun has been given more of a chance because at least he wasn’t treated the way Niasse was and was able to train with the squad to make a case for himself. 

Then for the purely practical reason MJB pointed out - Niasses wages are high but in 10 months he’s off on a free and seems to even be less than Tosun. 

https://www.spotrac.com/epl/everton-f.c/payroll/

So, Tosun has had more of a chance, scored the same amount of league goals in more apps over 2 season than Niasse managed in 1, has higher wages and a higher sell on value, is slower than Niasse where speed is crucial for our tactics, and (although I can’t find the link again) Niasse has been responsible for us winning more points, often crucial goals. 

But yeah let’s get rid of Niasse because he’s a “bumbling mad man”, or to put it more accurately, I’d say unorthodox because, whilst he’s not a player that’s particularly nice to watch, he gets the job done and works his arse off...

 

i love you matt, i really do  thanks man.  keep niasse and sell the asset in tosun while he's still worth something.  niasse will leave in the summer and well be free of both of them.  

[Finn balor]

Silva thinks niasse will go according to his press conference today

[Sibdane]

If I had to pick one I know who I'd choose. Niasse may have a slightly better goal ratio, but some of those goals were pure luck (ass goal comes to mind). It's great he got them, and the argument could be made that he was making the right runs, but you can't rely on flukes like that.

Niasse probably works harder, but Tosun is an all-around better player and looks to gel better with his teammates. I appreciate that Niasse never put his head down after being treated so strangely by Koeman, but that really shouldn't matter when you consider Tosun has also been a consummate professional as well. Watching Niasse in the pre-season matches was awul as well.

I'd keep Tosun.

[Matt]

2 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

i love you matt, i really do  thanks man.  keep niasse and sell the asset in tosun while he's still worth something.  niasse will leave in the summer and well be free of both of them.  

[StevO]

8 hours ago, Matt said:

Ossie vs Larissa, not because Ossie scores it but because it was a perfect counter attack

Can’t complain with that one. Remember watching the movement on the ball from my seat in the upper gwladys, it looked even better up there than on the tv footage. 

[Romey 1878]

16 minutes ago, StevO said:

Can’t complain with that one. Remember watching the movement on the ball from my seat in the upper gwladys, it looked even better up there than on the tv footage. 

I had to miss that game. Shut up  

[Finn balor]

One every of my all time favourites

[Bailey]

9 hours ago, Matt said:

The only thing a striker has shown is that he can score goals. Is that you Haf? 

I can’t ask the players just like you can’t read their minds, so that statement is as pointless. 

I get the play style thing, I really do, so there I cannot really argue because whilst facts show the individual contributions, you’re right that it’s not representative of the overall contribution to the team (though I don’t remember Tosun contributing that much). I would still argue the pressing and workrate of Niasse is much better than Tosun though and more suited to the high press. 

One thing that cannot be argued is the financial part. 

Ok to Niasse can run around a bit too. Are you suggesting he has anything else, especially from a technical perspective that marks him out as a premier league player? 

Well I can tell you that a footballer will want to play with other footballers. You cant predict what Niasse is going to do, at any point. His movement,  his touch, his passing. You cant play with any confidence alongside someone like that. Tosun might not be able to run as quick but you get the ball to his feet and most times he will control it and be able to move the ball on. 

Tosun still works very hard and presses. Niasse is a bit quicker but there isn't any difference in the work rate IMO. The overall ability of Tosun is far greater though. 

7 hours ago, Shukes said:

Well no. I think Matt is just showing that goals against minutes ratio, Niasse is better.

And DCL is ahead of both of them isn’t he?  Which would mean the exact opposite. We want to keep our better forwards, and get rid of the least effective one.

Or at least I think that’s what the stats were meaning to portray not like I ever get anything wrong is it!

We are talking about a very small sample size and that Niasse's goals came in a style of football which couldn't be further from the type of football we play now. 

I don't get the second part though. I was arguing the point that DCL doesn't score much either but the argument for him is that he offers much more than the stat line. That then contradicts the support of Niasse because he offers little in open play but did have that spell of scoring goals. Not that he has scored much recently mind you.

7 hours ago, Matt said:

Exactly. I’ll admit, I was surprised, and acknowledge that it’s not a completely fair comparison because of the timings. But still, Niasse has a better goal ratio for the team and only 1 assist less. 

In a completely different style of football. Comparing their stats for Everton is pointless because of the difference in football between now and then. Tosun scored a few under Allardyce too but he was less suited to it than Niasse. Tosun is far more suited to Silva than Niasse is, was or ever has been.

[Finn balor]

I think we will get shut if the right offer comes in. Charly has been talking to the press recently how he prefers to play as a striker. 

[Shukes]

Sorry Bailey, think I misread your DCL point.

I do agree with your Niasse and the chaos theory haha. No one has a clue what’s going to happen next!

[Matt]

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

Ok to Niasse can run around a bit too. Are you suggesting he has anything else, especially from a technical perspective that marks him out as a premier league player? 

Well I can tell you that a footballer will want to play with other footballers. You cant predict what Niasse is going to do, at any point. His movement,  his touch, his passing. You cant play with any confidence alongside someone like that. Tosun might not be able to run as quick but you get the ball to his feet and most times he will control it and be able to move the ball on. 

Tosun still works very hard and presses. Niasse is a bit quicker but there isn't any difference in the work rate IMO. The overall ability of Tosun is far greater though. 

We are talking about a very small sample size and that Niasse's goals came in a style of football which couldn't be further from the type of football we play now. 

I don't get the second part though. I was arguing the point that DCL doesn't score much either but the argument for him is that he offers much more than the stat line. That then contradicts the support of Niasse because he offers little in open play but did have that spell of scoring goals. Not that he has scored much recently mind you.

In a completely different style of football. Comparing their stats for Everton is pointless because of the difference in football between now and then. Tosun scored a few under Allardyce too but he was less suited to it than Niasse. Tosun is far more suited to Silva than Niasse is, was or ever has been.

So you concede he only scores and runs around a lot, and is unpredictable (which is also a headache for the defence) whereas Tosun does less of both and is more predictable ?

Considering Silva plays a high press, you need someone who runs constantly (Niasse). Scoring more goals is also the basics for any winning strategy (Niasse). Not even close who is better suited for me, even though I like them both. If we still played with 1 striker to get the goals, I’d say Tosun all the way, but we’re not there anymore. Also not saying Cenk doesn’t work hard either, he’s just slower and for high press, you need energy and pace, and he comes second in both from what little we’ve seen of him  

And again, there’s a clear financial advantage candidate. We’re talking about the emergency forward role, not the starter. 

[Bailey]

45 minutes ago, Matt said:

So you concede he only scores and runs around a lot, and is unpredictable (which is also a headache for the defence) whereas Tosun does less of both and is more predictable ?

Considering Silva plays a high press, you need someone who runs constantly (Niasse). Scoring more goals is also the basics for any winning strategy (Niasse). Not even close who is better suited for me, even though I like them both. If we still played with 1 striker to get the goals, I’d say Tosun all the way, but we’re not there anymore. Also not saying Cenk doesn’t work hard either, he’s just slower and for high press, you need energy and pace, and he comes second in both from what little we’ve seen of him  

And again, there’s a clear financial advantage candidate. We’re talking about the emergency forward role, not the starter. 

Unpredictable might sound fancy but if your teammates can't predict what you are going to do, good luck with building a winning side with that person in it. 

So how many goals has Niasse scored under Silva at Everton? I don't think Tosuns perceived lack of pace or energy stops his defensive effort being any worse than Niasse. Tosun covers the angles much better. 

The amount of money means FA to us. He might be 3rd striker at the moment but if DCL gets injured we have a 19 yo lad who has played 30 minutes in this country. 

[Vranny]

I’d rather play Richarlison or Walcott up front than Niasse, so he barely counts as cover. He’s a Hail Mary option off the bench for the last 5-10 mins at best. His dribbling and basic passing are both that bad that you literally don’t want him touching the ball unless it’s for a header or shot. 

May as well sell him (Niasse) while we can get some token fee for him, hope Kean settles and then we can always sell Tosun in January when teams are desperate for goals to stave off relegation. 

[Bailey]

I have just checked their EPL stats. Tosun per game has scored more, assisted more, completes more passes, makes more Interceptions, and is more accurate with his shots.

Niasse makes more tackles and misses more sitters.

There isnt a huge amount in the stats but that's a real life example as to why you should never just rely on stats to judge a footballer. There is a huge difference in the quality between the two. I can't actually believe it's even a debate. 

[Sibdane]

1 minute ago, Bailey said:

I have just checked their EPL stats. Tosun per game has scored more, assisted more, completes more passes, makes more Interceptions, and is more accurate with his shots.

Niasse makes more tackles and misses more sitters.

There isnt a huge amount in the stats but that's a real life example as to why you should never just rely on stats to judge a footballer. There is a huge difference in the quality between the two. I can't actually believe it's even a debate. 

Completely agree. All you have to do is watch the both of them to see who is the better player. 

I understand the finance argument, but that's not a factor anymore. Maybe it would be if we were paying them Barca or RM wages, but we're not. We're still growing and need the strongest possible options that fit our system. Admittedly, our system fits neither, so I'm taking the stronger of the two. 

[pete0]

17 minutes ago, Bailey said:

I have just checked their EPL stats. Tosun per game has scored more, assisted more, completes more passes, makes more Interceptions, and is more accurate with his shots.

Niasse makes more tackles and misses more sitters.

There isnt a huge amount in the stats but that's a real life example as to why you should never just rely on stats to judge a footballer. There is a huge difference in the quality between the two. I can't actually believe it's even a debate. 

Don't think anyone doubts Tosun isn't a better footballer than Niasse. It's more that Tosun isn't suited to the style we play, Niasse is better suited purely to being faster and stronger. If Silva used a plan B to get the best of Tosun then he's the one worth keeping if we're only getting rid of one, but if we're not budging on the system then there's no place for Tosun. 

[Matt]

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

Unpredictable might sound fancy but if your teammates can't predict what you are going to do, good luck with building a winning side with that person in it. 

So how many goals has Niasse scored under Silva at Everton? I don't think Tosuns perceived lack of pace or energy stops his defensive effort being any worse than Niasse. Tosun covers the angles much better. 

The amount of money means FA to us. He might be 3rd striker at the moment but if DCL gets injured we have a 19 yo lad who has played 30 minutes in this country. 

Again, we’re talking about emergency forward, not building a winning side with either of them. Neither have proven they will make us better unfortunately. I agree that relying on Kean is stupid, but then I’d bank on someone who’s scored more in this league in one season over someone who managed 1 goal more in 2 and more apps. Considering that we might again have to consider Richarlison as 3rd choice, we’re arguing about 4th or 5th choice...

show me the stats Tosun covers more angles, then I’ll look up KM covered, interceptions for Niasse. I’ve alreadt given evidence for my argument, do the same dude.

Unpredictable wasn’t meant to sound fancy, it was to call it what it was; headache for both sides. Means both advantages and disadvantages, and not a solution I want to rely on because it’s a gamble.

Money doesn’t mean fuck all? It means less than it did, but it’s still relevant. It can also be remedied in January if we need. So, lose out on a 10 month contract for next to nothing or cash in on a better finisher who’ll never play? 

[Romey 1878]

Scored for Turkey. 

[Sibdane]

17 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

Scored for Turkey. 

Good goal too.

[Aidan]

 

[Palfy]

2 minutes ago, Aidan said:

 

Class finish

[Romey 1878]

And again.