Abdoulaye Doucouré

[markjazzbassist]

we have a ton of box to box players on our squad, i just really don't get this.  if you all think he's that we already have gomes davies delph.  we need DM help not more box to box.

[Makis]

Doucoure is much more physical and is not as easy to run past as Gomes.

[StevO]

2 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

we have a ton of box to box players on our squad, i just really don't get this.  if you all think he's that we already have gomes davies delph.  we need DM help not more box to box.

he’s nothing like Gomes, Davies or Delph. 

[Hafnia]

7 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

we have a ton of box to box players on our squad, i just really don't get this.  if you all think he's that we already have gomes davies delph.  we need DM help not more box to box.

Box to box player? Tom Davies and that's it.  He's not good enough sadly. Not strong enough and not quick enough. Which makes him a poor option. 

 

A box to box player needs pace, stamina, strength.  None fit that criteria. Gomes isn't good defensively nor is gylfi, Delph isn't good at anything,  Davies is average at everything. 

Allan could be a box to box option. But decoure most certainly is. Allan more a DM

 

[markjazzbassist]

its hilarious because everyone has a different idea of what "box to box" means.  i love how all of a sudden this guy is an amazing defender, attacker, and fast as lightning!  lol  i never noticed this guy when we played watford, even tried to watch him sometimes because we were linked with marco.  their fans didn't have a lot of good things to say about him this year either.  i get allan and james, i'm not excited about this transfer.  i don't think he offers anything over what we already have other than a bigger body.

[Hafnia]

5 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

its hilarious because everyone has a different idea of what "box to box" means.  i love how all of a sudden this guy is an amazing defender, attacker, and fast as lightning!  lol  i never noticed this guy when we played watford, even tried to watch him sometimes because we were linked with marco.  their fans didn't have a lot of good things to say about him this year either.  i get allan and james, i'm not excited about this transfer.  i don't think he offers anything over what we already have other than a bigger body.

Box to box means an all rounder who can operate defensively or attacking wise. To do that they need athleticism.  Decoure eats up the ground, physically imposing, can finish and can tackle. At £20m he represents good value and depth as he can play advanced, central of defensively

Who does that for us? 

[Aidan]

18 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

their fans didn't have a lot of good things to say about him this year

Wafords team had a bad season altogether. Villa fans never had anything good to say about Gueye before he signed. 

To put it into perspective only Sarr and Deeney scored more for Watford last season and Doucoure only got 4! Only Foster played more minutes so he was seen as an integral part of the team. 

No matter what his role is described as he's a powerful presence in midfield which as people have pointed out we lack. 

Doucoure and Allan will allow us to control midfield much easier. 

[RuffRob]

18 minutes ago, Aidan said:

Wafords team had a bad season altogether. Villa fans never had anything good to say about Gueye before he signed. 

To put it into perspective only Sarr and Deeney scored more for Watford last season and Doucoure only got 4! Only Foster played more minutes so he was seen as an integral part of the team. 

No matter what his role is described as he's a powerful presence in midfield which as people have pointed out we lack. 

Doucoure and Allan will allow us to control midfield much easier. 

if he manages that again for us, he would be one of our top scorers !! 

I don't think Doucoure had a particularly good season last year by all accounts - I don't think his heart was really in being there and maybe Watford should have actually cashed in on the offers they received last summer. This happens to players - head not in the right place

I think he started out as a more defensive midfielder, and player a more forward role over the past couple of seasons. The good thing about him is that he can player both and attaching role and a defensive role pretty well, so a very versatile player who can adapt to game in which he is playing in. Like people have already commented, he is better than what we already have in a key area of the pitch.

 

[Bailey]

57 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

we have a ton of box to box players on our squad, i just really don't get this.  if you all think he's that we already have gomes davies delph.  we need DM help not more box to box.

This made me lol

52 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Box to box player? Tom Davies and that's it.  He's not good enough sadly. Not strong enough and not quick enough. Which makes him a poor option. 

 

A box to box player needs pace, stamina, strength.  None fit that criteria. Gomes isn't good defensively nor is gylfi, Delph isn't good at anything,  Davies is average at everything. 

Allan could be a box to box option. But decoure most certainly is. Allan more a DM

 

Davies box-to-box.... Don't get me wrong, he tries to be but it takes him about an hour to get from one box to the other. He has neither pace, stamina or strength. Gomes would be the closest for me as he is capable of breaking into the box but you don't want him doing any defending. I think Delph will be Allan's back up.

I think Doucoure is a really good player on his day. He is a pest. He is strong, quick, he has great feet and he is equally adept at putting in a challenge as he is putting the ball in the back of the net. I wouldn't say I have seen enough of him to say how often his day is but I haven't seen him play poorly.

In respect of the Watford fans, they seemed more concerned about Capoue leaving but whenever I have watched Watford, Capoue might do something a bit fancier, but Doucoure is the one getting the job done and making the right decisions. Capoue is half the player of Doucoure.

 

[Wiggytop]

1 hour ago, markjazzbassist said:

we have a ton of box to box players on our squad, i just really don't get this.  if you all think he's that we already have gomes davies delph.  we need DM help not more box to box.

 

54 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

its hilarious because everyone has a different idea of what "box to box" means.  i love how all of a sudden this guy is an amazing defender, attacker, and fast as lightning!  lol  i never noticed this guy when we played watford, even tried to watch him sometimes because we were linked with marco.  their fans didn't have a lot of good things to say about him this year either.  i get allan and james, i'm not excited about this transfer.  i don't think he offers anything over what we already have other than a bigger body.

Davies and Gomes are far too easy to run past, and don’t have the pace to turn and catch up with play, Delph I’ve no idea as he’s never fit enough to be on the pitch. 
Dacoure for me is a big upgrade on Gana, similar engine and disrupter, but far better goal rate and at bringing others in to play. I remember him steamrollering in a goal against us at Goodison.

[Hafnia]

18 minutes ago, Bailey said:

This made me lol

Davies box-to-box.... Don't get me wrong, he tries to be but it takes him about an hour to get from one box to the other. He has neither pace, stamina or strength. Gomes would be the closest for me as he is capable of breaking into the box but you don't want him doing any defending. I think Delph will be Allan's back up.

I think Doucoure is a really good player on his day. He is a pest. He is strong, quick, he has great feet and he is equally adept at putting in a challenge as he is putting the ball in the back of the net. I wouldn't say I have seen enough of him to say how often his day is but I haven't seen him play poorly.

In respect of the Watford fans, they seemed more concerned about Capoue leaving but whenever I have watched Watford, Capoue might do something a bit fancier, but Doucoure is the one getting the job done and making the right decisions. Capoue is half the player of Doucoure.

 

I did say that Davies wasn't a viable option because he isn't good enough ... But yes he is a box to box midfirlder just like Coco Martina is a full back

[SpartyBlue]

26 minutes ago, Bailey said:

This made me lol

Davies box-to-box.... Don't get me wrong, he tries to be but it takes him about an hour to get from one box to the other. He has neither pace, stamina or strength. Gomes would be the closest for me as he is capable of breaking into the box but you don't want him doing any defending. I think Delph will be Allan's back up.

I think Doucoure is a really good player on his day. He is a pest. He is strong, quick, he has great feet and he is equally adept at putting in a challenge as he is putting the ball in the back of the net. I wouldn't say I have seen enough of him to say how often his day is but I haven't seen him play poorly.

In respect of the Watford fans, they seemed more concerned about Capoue leaving but whenever I have watched Watford, Capoue might do something a bit fancier, but Doucoure is the one getting the job done and making the right decisions. Capoue is half the player of Doucoure.

 

It will be interesting to see how the addition of James effects everyone. We have seriously upgraded our offensive threat with his signing and the fact that he isn't gonna offer much defensively should change the role of our midfield a bit. Be solid defensively, win the ball, get it up to James, Richie our out to Digne/Coleman. Having a more narrowly defined role should help some of our midfielders focus on their jobs. Part of the reason Gueye was so effective is that he was not asked to do more than he was capable of.

[markjazzbassist]

31 minutes ago, Wiggytop said:

 

Davies and Gomes are far too easy to run past, and don’t have the pace to turn and catch up with play, Delph I’ve no idea as he’s never fit enough to be on the pitch. 
Dacoure for me is a big upgrade on Gana, similar engine and disrupter, but far better goal rate and at bringing others in to play. I remember him steamrollering in a goal against us at Goodison.

i thought you said he was a box to box?  then how is he an upgrade on gana who was our sitting DM?  this is the hilarity i'm talking about.  on his day gomes wipes the floor with doucoure at ball retention, transition to attack, and vision and passing.  if we are so excited for doucoure's defense, why did we sign allan (the supposed box to box/DM)?  are we playing 2 defensive minded mids now and going all fat sam?  in a 442  just don't see room for doucoure and would rather the money be spent elsewhere (romero for instance)

 

i've said my peace, i'm fine with being lambasted for it, won't be the first, won't be the last time.  just don't need another glut at one position with holes at others.

[Hafnia]

10 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

i thought you said he was a box to box?  then how is he an upgrade on gana who was our sitting DM?  this is the hilarity i'm talking about.  on his day gomes wipes the floor with doucoure at ball retention, transition to attack, and vision and passing.  if we are so excited for doucoure's defense, why did we sign allan (the supposed box to box/DM)?  are we playing 2 defensive minded mids now and going all fat sam?  in a 442  just don't see room for doucoure and would rather the money be spent elsewhere (romero for instance)

 

i've said my peace, i'm fine with being lambasted for it, won't be the first, won't be the last time.  just don't need another glut at one position with holes at others.

Not sure why you are being so touchy about this... Gana despite being a defensively stronger player Vs attacking was used as a box to box player by Silva especially. He pressed high, got back deep 

 

Look at heat maps..... They are your best clue

[markjazzbassist]

36 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Not sure why you are being so touchy about this... Gana despite being a defensively stronger player Vs attacking was used as a box to box player by Silva especially. He pressed high, got back deep 

 

Look at heat maps..... They are your best clue

because i don't want doucoure, i don't see the use in a 25m bench player when we have other holes.  for 2 CM spots in a 442 we will have Allan Doucoure Gomes Gbamin Davies Delph.  4 of those players will be 20m+ fees.  N, only 2 start.  waste of money and wages for me.  not to mention besic and beni (hopefully being sold). that is a glut of players for 2 positions.  on the other hand we only have DCL RIcharlison Kean for 2 forward spots.  Keeper we have pickford and no one else (lossl isn't good enough).  i'd rather strengthen those places than more CM's.

[Shukes]

A box to box describes just that. You need to be mobile and able to defend when needed, but then able to have the energy to burst forward with the ball and link up attack. We do t have anyone who can do that at the moment.

Allan is a defensive mid, that is capable to play forward, without being particularly good at it.

James is a forward player. No defending, just pure offence.

Delpth shouldn’t be an option other than back up.

Gbamin needs time to even be considered.

Davies needs to be loaned out. 
 

Gylfi.... is Gylfi, that should be enough of an explanation.

I would think that Allan will be the main anchor. Doucoure the box to box that can link up with attack, but have the energy to get back and help Allan out when needed. This should allow Gomes to have a more free role. 

[StevO]

1 hour ago, markjazzbassist said:

i thought you said he was a box to box?  then how is he an upgrade on gana who was our sitting DM?  this is the hilarity i'm talking about.  on his day gomes wipes the floor with doucoure at ball retention, transition to attack, and vision and passing.  if we are so excited for doucoure's defense, why did we sign allan (the supposed box to box/DM)?  are we playing 2 defensive minded mids now and going all fat sam?  in a 442  just don't see room for doucoure and would rather the money be spent elsewhere (romero for instance)

 

i've said my peace, i'm fine with being lambasted for it, won't be the first, won't be the last time.  just don't need another glut at one position with holes at others.

Gana wasn’t a sitting DM. 
his haters didn’t like that he was often out of position. But this was due to him pressing high up the pitch. He was there to defend, so you can call him a DM if you like, but sitting was never his job. 
 

A lot of us here remember back when a midfielders job was to attack and defend. We get so used to all this crap in the modern game that has about six different type of central midfielder, they either attack, or defend, or play deep..... the nice thing about Doucoure, and by the looks of it Allan too, is that they can defend and attack. 
 

Nowadays what would people call Keane and Scholes? Keane a DM and Scholes and AM? Viera and Petit?
They all attacked and defended. They all did it well, they had their strengths and their weaknesses but their jobs were to do both. 
 

If Carlo wants to play a 442 then I can’t wait to see some midfielders who can do the job of an all round midfielder. 

[StevO]

25 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

because i don't want doucoure

Let it go. 

[SpartyBlue]

10 minutes ago, StevO said:

Gana wasn’t a sitting DM. 
his haters didn’t like that he was often out of position. But this was due to him pressing high up the pitch. He was there to defend, so you can call him a DM if you like, but sitting was never his job. 
 

A lot of us here remember back when a midfielders job was to attack and defend. We get so used to all this crap in the modern game that has about six different type of central midfielder, they either attack, or defend, or play deep..... the nice thing about Doucoure, and by the looks of it Allan too, is that they can defend and attack. 
 

Nowadays what would people call Keane and Scholes? Keane a DM and Scholes and AM? Viera and Petit?
They all attacked and defended. They all did it well, they had their strengths and their weaknesses but their jobs were to do both. 
 

If Carlo wants to play a 442 then I can’t wait to see some midfielders who can do the job of an all round midfielder. 

Let’s assume Doucouré. How do you think we will set up next year optimally in terms of personnel? I’m curious how these pieces are going to fit together. Who is the backup whom? Etc..

[Aidan]

35 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

because i don't want doucoure, i don't see the use in a 25m bench player when we have other holes.  for 2 CM spots in a 442 we will have Allan Doucoure Gomes Gbamin Davies Delph.  4 of those players will be 20m+ fees.  N, only 2 start.  waste of money and wages for me.  not to mention besic and beni (hopefully being sold). that is a glut of players for 2 positions.  on the other hand we only have DCL RIcharlison Kean for 2 forward spots.  Keeper we have pickford and no one else (lossl isn't good enough).  i'd rather strengthen those places than more CM's.

Doucoure will not be a bench player. If anything Gomes will be dropped to accommodate him next to allan im a 442.

[Aidan]

9 minutes ago, StevO said:

Let it go. 

Love that film. Do you know the rest of the lyrics? 

[StevO]

48 minutes ago, Aidan said:

Love that film. Do you know the rest of the lyrics? 

No, but I’ve recently become a Dad to a baby girl. The missus has been told that Film is a Mother Daughter thing.

[StevO]

53 minutes ago, SpartyBlue said:

Let’s assume Doucouré. How do you think we will set up next year optimally in terms of personnel? I’m curious how these pieces are going to fit together. Who is the backup whom? Etc..

I think if we play 442; I think Allan plays most games, with Doucoure and Gomes taking the other position depending on opposition. But mostly two of those three. Probably see Davies come in and out too. 
 

If we play433; I can see the three of them playing in the middle. I honestly think this could be the most fluid midfield we could see. They are all a bit different and offer different things with and without the ball. I don’t think many teams would like to play against them three, and still have to worry about Digne, James, Richarlison and DCL at the same time. I think we could really overwhelm teams like this. 
Id be looking at this for them tricky home cup ties against the lower league teams. Play the three of them and dominate the game early on, instead of the usual just about get over the line with a scrappy 1-0. 
 

How about you?

[Hafnia]

1 hour ago, markjazzbassist said:

because i don't want doucoure, i don't see the use in a 25m bench player when we have other holes.  for 2 CM spots in a 442 we will have Allan Doucoure Gomes Gbamin Davies Delph.  4 of those players will be 20m+ fees.  N, only 2 start.  waste of money and wages for me.  not to mention besic and beni (hopefully being sold). that is a glut of players for 2 positions.  on the other hand we only have DCL RIcharlison Kean for 2 forward spots.  Keeper we have pickford and no one else (lossl isn't good enough).  i'd rather strengthen those places than more CM's.

You mention Gbamin Delph and Davies like they are options?  One is questionable to return at a functional level and the other 2 aren't functional when fit. 

 That leaves us with Gomes & Allan as a viable partnership. For me there is a chance that Carlo wants 433, one sit, one attack and one operate on both.  Gomes has no legs 

From a forward perspective we have Richarlison, DCL, Keane, James Rodriguez, 

[StevO]

1 minute ago, Hafnia said:

You mention Gbamin Delph and Davies like they are options?  One is questionable to return at a functional level and the other 2 aren't functional when fit. 

 That leaves us with Gomes & Allan as a viable partnership. For me there is a chance that Carlo wants 433, one sit, one attack and one operate on both.  Gomes has no legs 

From a forward perspective we have Richarlison, DCL, Keane, James Rodriguez, 

This. 
 

Delph, Davies and Gbamin just don’t need to be in the picture with these lads coming in. If Gbamin makes it back then fantastic. If Davies can improve then great. But the guys coming in are just better than what we’ve got. 

[markjazzbassist]

57 minutes ago, Aidan said:

Doucoure will not be a bench player. If anything Gomes will be dropped to accommodate him next to allan im a 442.

great so we wasted 25m on gomes and 25m on gbamin, that's 50m on 2 bench players.  this is my point.  seems overkill.  happy to be proved wrong.  

[Hafnia]

17 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

great so we wasted 25m on gomes and 25m on gbamin, that's 50m on 2 bench players.  this is my point.  seems overkill.  happy to be proved wrong.  

Yeah Liverpool should never have bought Salah and Mane ... Why do that  when they spent 100m on benteke and Carroll?  Why did they spend money on Allison when they bought karius and the lad from Sunderland? 

By all means if you don't rate him then fine mate, but you can't create a "we've got enough options' argument to exclude him.   Our midfield was one of if not the worst in the league.

I envisage a bit of deadwood will be gone in the coming weeks but we can't operate with any of them. 

[SpartyBlue]

7 minutes ago, StevO said:

I think if we play 442; I think Allan plays most games, with Doucoure and Gomes taking the other position depending on opposition. But mostly two of those three. Probably see Davies come in and out too. 
 

If we play433; I can see the three of them playing in the middle. I honestly think this could be the most fluid midfield we could see. They are all a bit different and offer different things with and without the ball. I don’t think many teams would like to play against them three, and still have to worry about Digne, James, Richarlison and DCL at the same time. I think we could really overwhelm teams like this. 
Id be looking at this for them tricky home cup ties against the lower league teams. Play the three of them and dominate the game early on, instead of the usual just about get over the line with a scrappy 1-0. 
 

How about you?

I’m not well versed enough to offer a very informed opinion on formations which is why I asked. That said, I was thinking about  that 4-3-3 and it does seem more natural given our probable  personnel. Both Rodríguez and Richie could play more centrally at times. I know Richie in particular would rather play in the middle. I like the thought of a fluid front 3 where they can overlap and play off each other as they wish as all are capable of playing centrally and holding the ball. Their versatility should be a strength we exploit. As far as the midfield I don’t really know which structure would support a front 3 the best. I would assume Allan, Doucoure and Gomes would make up 2/3 at a minimum. That formation would also give Iwobi (when he plays) a chance to play more centrally behind the front 3 (same for Gordon) where they should be most effective. It wouldn’t surprise me if we shifted more to a 4-4-2 when one of the starting front 3 was not in the game.

[SpartyBlue]

19 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

great so we wasted 25m on gomes and 25m on gbamin, that's 50m on 2 bench players.  this is my point.  seems overkill.  happy to be proved wrong.  

Bit early to be calling Gomes or Gbamin a waste isn’t it? That aside, it’s the reality at all clubs with some money that you’re going to have expensive players in the bench. For example, James Rodríguez at Real Madrid.

[Bailey]

1 hour ago, StevO said:

Gana wasn’t a sitting DM. 
his haters didn’t like that he was often out of position. But this was due to him pressing high up the pitch. He was there to defend, so you can call him a DM if you like, but sitting was never his job. 
 

A lot of us here remember back when a midfielders job was to attack and defend. We get so used to all this crap in the modern game that has about six different type of central midfielder, they either attack, or defend, or play deep..... the nice thing about Doucoure, and by the looks of it Allan too, is that they can defend and attack. 
 

Nowadays what would people call Keane and Scholes? Keane a DM and Scholes and AM? Viera and Petit?
They all attacked and defended. They all did it well, they had their strengths and their weaknesses but their jobs were to do both. 
 

If Carlo wants to play a 442 then I can’t wait to see some midfielders who can do the job of an all round midfielder. 

I'm not sure Scholes defended all that well .

The beauty of those two was that Keane did more of the dirty work but that didn't mean Scholes didn't. He did his fair share as well, its just one was better at it and the other was better technically. Keane was such a simple footballer but IMO that's a great commodity. No real weakness other than his temper. Scholes on the other hand was incredible. 

19 minutes ago, StevO said:

I think if we play 442; I think Allan plays most games, with Doucoure and Gomes taking the other position depending on opposition. But mostly two of those three. Probably see Davies come in and out too. 
 

If we play433; I can see the three of them playing in the middle. I honestly think this could be the most fluid midfield we could see. They are all a bit different and offer different things with and without the ball. I don’t think many teams would like to play against them three, and still have to worry about Digne, James, Richarlison and DCL at the same time. I think we could really overwhelm teams like this. 
Id be looking at this for them tricky home cup ties against the lower league teams. Play the three of them and dominate the game early on, instead of the usual just about get over the line with a scrappy 1-0. 
 

How about you?

Personally I would love to see the 433. Not sure it will happen at least at the start of the season but the quality through the middle could be as good as we have seen for an age.

15 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

great so we wasted 25m on gomes and 25m on gbamin, that's 50m on 2 bench players.  this is my point.  seems overkill.  happy to be proved wrong.  

I dont get what the problem is? Do you want to go through another season relying on a crock and someone who can jogged past too easily. We desperately need a midfield and if it means replacing what we have then it needs to be done. Id be much happier those two coming in than Davies / Siggy.