Marcel Brands (DoF)

[Palfy]

22 minutes ago, c1982 said:

The main part of Brands’ job has been getting players out the door up to now.

Your right when he arrived Moshiri tasked him with getting players off the books because we had far to many squad players, and getting the wages costs down, I would say he has disappointed in that task, most players who have drained the club finances are only leaving because their contracts have expired. 

[c1982]

7 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Your right when he arrived Moshiri tasked him with getting players off the books because we had far to many squad players, and getting the wages costs down, I would say he has disappointed in that task, most players who have drained the club finances are only leaving because their contracts have expired. 

I would say he’s had almost mission impossible getting some of them out of the club - even on-loan.

Far too many players on massive contracts not prepared to move on. Who’s going to take over Bolasie’s £80k per week (pure guess work) contract after he’s had a serious knee injury? Tosun? That’s just bad luck - a deal was in place at the end of his Palace loan for it to be cut short by serious injury - I’m sure something would have been sorted with Beskitas but another serious injury!

[Palfy]

1 minute ago, c1982 said:

I would say he’s had almost mission impossible getting some of them out of the club - even on-loan.

Far too many players on massive contracts not prepared to move on. Who’s going to take over Bolasie’s £80k per week (pure guess work) contract after he’s had a serious knee injury? Tosun? That’s just bad luck - a deal was in place at the end of his Palace loan for it to be cut short by serious injury - I’m sure something would have been sorted with Beskitas but another serious injury!

He took the job knowing what it entailed and what the owner wanted, I’m sure he didn’t go to the interview and say I can’t do that it’s mission impossible, he took the job with massive wages and hasn’t delivered, we can all find excuses for for not delivering what we said we could but no matter how you dress it up it’s still failure. 

[c1982]

14 minutes ago, Palfy said:

He took the job knowing what it entailed and what the owner wanted, I’m sure he didn’t go to the interview and say I can’t do that it’s mission impossible, he took the job with massive wages and hasn’t delivered, we can all find excuses for for not delivering what we said we could but no matter how you dress it up it’s still failure. 

Well let’s hope he stays and can turn this ‘failure’ round to success then.

[Palfy]

On 05/06/2018 at 23:06, c1982 said:

Good!

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jun/05/everton-marcel-brands-squad-reduction-sell-before-buy

I’m as excited about who we are going to sell as to who we are signing - that’s how poorly I rate some of our current squad.

He didn’t achieve his brief, that’s the reality of our situation. 

[Palfy]

5 minutes ago, c1982 said:

Well let’s hope he stays and can turn this ‘failure’ round to success then.

I’m not saying get rid of him yet I believe he should have his 3rd year, but if he hasn’t got better players in and the wage bill down by the end of next season, what has he achieved for his 6 million a year. 

[MikeO]

10 hours ago, Palfy said:

I’m not saying get rid of him yet I believe he should have his 3rd year, but if he hasn’t got better players in and the wage bill down by the end of next season, what has he achieved for his 6 million a year. 

£6m a year....where does that number come from?

[Matt]

2 hours ago, MikeO said:

£6m a year....where does that number come from?

Closest figure I can find is £2m. 

[StevO]

15 hours ago, Palfy said:

Your right when he arrived Moshiri tasked him with getting players off the books because we had far to many squad players, and getting the wages costs down, I would say he has disappointed in that task, most players who have drained the club finances are only leaving because their contracts have expired. 

Would you leave a club paying you £60k per week to go to another club and earn £20k per week when you know you’ll never get a contract this big again?

Thats why he can’t shift these players. The ones who wanted to go and play have gone or are on loan, the ones who have wanted to keep picking up the big money have been a problem. 
 

It’s all well and good when people say “he’s shit just sell him”, but unless you’ve got someone willing to buy them and a player willing to drop their money it’s impossible. 

[StevO]

I honestly think he’s done a good job. He’s fixed some of the shit he inherited, not all of it. But he’s only a director of football, he can’t just fix everything. 
He isn’t going to unearth bargain players every summer, it happens from time to time for even the best scouts/managers/DoF. And it’s much easier to find a bargain player who can make it in Holland than it is for the Premier League. 
There is a structure to the club now. All of these things take time. I would hate to see him leave and we start all over again. He is well renowned and well respected in football, he has relationships with top agents and has done deals with some of Europe’s best clubs. We need people at the club who are used to walking in these circles, and with Marcel and Carlo we have that. We need to let them do what they do. I fully expect the squad to be stronger again next year, and again the year after. I think in two years we will have little to no deadwood (there will always be a player or two we could do with moving on) and things will be well in place. 
Change is the last thing the club needs. More stability please. 

[markjazzbassist]

i don't know, we watch the likes of chelsea loan off their players yearly, even their shite ones, they are able to do it, maybe they are more cutthroat, "you won't play, leave", where we are the nice guys.  as far as finding gems yearly that's what the guy at Lille does, that's literally how he's built his career, same with Monchi (still doing it for sevilla round two).  

 

my issue is he doesn't have a major trait that is a bonus.  he just seems good at everything.  not great.  is that what we want/need?  i'd rather have unearthed gem guy, or master agent connections guy, or something, but we just get ok loans, manager driven transfers, and seemingly ok relations with the players.  shouldn't we aim for higher?

[StevO]

16 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

i don't know, we watch the likes of chelsea loan off their players yearly, even their shite ones, they are able to do it, maybe they are more cutthroat, "you won't play, leave", where we are the nice guys.  as far as finding gems yearly that's what the guy at Lille does, that's literally how he's built his career, same with Monchi (still doing it for sevilla round two).  

 

my issue is he doesn't have a major trait that is a bonus.  he just seems good at everything.  not great.  is that what we want/need?  i'd rather have unearthed gem guy, or master agent connections guy, or something, but we just get ok loans, manager driven transfers, and seemingly ok relations with the players.  shouldn't we aim for higher?

Chelsea have had their club running like this for probably over ten years now. It’s a system they have had in place and used as their business model. 
They have deals set up with clubs to send players to all around Europe. 
 

Not to pull up the Bill debate again, but when Chelsea were setting up all of this we were just trying to keep the club moving forward. Only now are we trying to compete so getting these things set up is going to take time and it takes money. For all intents and purposes this current version of Everton Football Club is only a few years old. 
 

Again, unearthing gems to play in France is not the same level. Is anyone in the premier league finding players at this level every year for pennies? If it was so easy everyone would do it. 
Monchi has got a great reputation, no issue with that. But he’s not at Everton and is probably not coming to Everton any time soon. 
Other than transfer business how does your guy at Lille and Monchi do at restructuring their football clubs? It’s not an easy task  

How do you know what he’s good at and not great at? We all don’t have the foggiest idea what he does on a day to day basis and only judge him on transfer deals. There is more to his job than just a successful or unsuccessful transfer or loan. 
 

If you don’t think we are aiming higher I think you are paying him a disservice. There is no way Marcel is sat at his office in Finch Farm looking at players to come and help us be mid table, he isn’t looking at construction plans for the training ground thinking this is fine for a second rate plan. They will be doing everything they can to compete at the top. It’s a long process. And him using his managers connections to help us get better players will just make his job easier. But he’s also bringing in players. Digne and Doucoure are two of our best players, Godfrey has been fantastic. I’ve no issue with these players, and neither does Carlo.  

[markjazzbassist]

Ste i think he means well and is trying, totally, it's not that he isn't good at his job, it's that he isn't elite.  he'd be great at Soton or Newcastle or West Ham or any club like that just happy to be in the premier league.  Doing the day in/out of continuing that.  Liverpool got the guy from Dortmund, already winning things and aiming for nothing but the best.  City got the guy from Barca.  We got a guy from the dutch league.  The pedigree isn't there, and honestly at this level it might be something.  The  connections, relationships, experience, i'm saying he might be missing that extra 5% those guys have that make them elite.  I'm wondering aloud is it time to go get that elite level DOF now that brands contract is up?  i dunno, we'll see what Moshiri does.

[Bailey]

I don't get why there is so much negativity surrounding Brands. If anything it just seems to follow a short term dip in results. No-one was moaning about him when we were top of the league earlier in the season and he looked to have found gems in Godfrey and Nkounkou as well as the perfect fit of Doucoure into the squad. Even the move of Kean is working out as he is showing that he is a quality player, albeit only in France at the moment.

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned why don't we have certain back up players but that is down to either previous management or Ancellotti. We have a RB and LB, we had a right winger. We also have a striker on the books with promise. The reason they aren't playing for us in the second half of this season is because either Ancellotti doesn't fancy them or they aren't good enough. Brands can't go and buy another 4 or 5 players just to play as back ups whilst they are on loan.

[Matt]

Oh my fucking lord...

[Bailey]

9 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

Ste i think he means well and is trying, totally, it's not that he isn't good at his job, it's that he isn't elite.  he'd be great at Soton or Newcastle or West Ham or any club like that just happy to be in the premier league.  Doing the day in/out of continuing that.  Liverpool got the guy from Dortmund, already winning things and aiming for nothing but the best.  City got the guy from Barca.  We got a guy from the dutch league.  The pedigree isn't there, and honestly at this level it might be something.  The  connections, relationships, experience, i'm saying he might be missing that extra 5% those guys have that make them elite.  I'm wondering aloud is it time to go get that elite level DOF now that brands contract is up?  i dunno, we'll see what Moshiri does.

https://www.cityam.com/how-liverpool-sporting-director-michael-edwards-rose-to-the-very-top/

Its a hell of a lot easier to attract top talent when you are winning leagues and playing in the Champions League. Brands has somehow managed to lure three players from Barcalona and another rough diamond from Juve.

Out of interest, how many of Liverpool's signings from the last two seasons have gone on to be a hit? You wont need many fingers to count them.

[Palfy]

9 minutes ago, Bailey said:

https://www.cityam.com/how-liverpool-sporting-director-michael-edwards-rose-to-the-very-top/

Its a hell of a lot easier to attract top talent when you are winning leagues and playing in the Champions League. Brands has somehow managed to lure three players from Barcalona and another rough diamond from Juve.

Out of interest, how many of Liverpool's signings from the last two seasons have gone on to be a hit? You wont need many fingers to count them.

That story was more than 14 months old talking of players they brought in a couple of seasons before, I honestly don’t know how what’s happening or happened anywhere else as any correlation to what has and what is happening here. 

[StevO]

28 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

Ste i think he means well and is trying, totally, it's not that he isn't good at his job, it's that he isn't elite.  he'd be great at Soton or Newcastle or West Ham or any club like that just happy to be in the premier league.  Doing the day in/out of continuing that.  Liverpool got the guy from Dortmund, already winning things and aiming for nothing but the best.  City got the guy from Barca.  We got a guy from the dutch league.  The pedigree isn't there, and honestly at this level it might be something.  The  connections, relationships, experience, i'm saying he might be missing that extra 5% those guys have that make them elite.  I'm wondering aloud is it time to go get that elite level DOF now that brands contract is up?  i dunno, we'll see what Moshiri does.

Ok, if he isn’t elite, who is and why?

As with Chelsea, comparing us to City and Liverpool, who started on their business plans quite a few years ahead of us, is ridiculous. They all had their new owners and new structures in place way before us. We tried with Steve Walsh and it didn’t work and we’ve had to start from scratch.

You don’t expect us to catch Chelsea, Liverpool and City in three years on the pitch, so why should we catch them in the same time off the pitch?

Who should we be getting who does have the pedigree you’re talking about. Because by reputation Marcel was up there rated as one of the best when we got him. And if he leaves us I doubt he will be taking a step down. 
Got to be honest Mark, you don’t have a clue what it takes to be a director of football and what they do day to day. None of us do. But it’s more than just instant success and good transfer dealings. 

[pete0]

47 minutes ago, Bailey said:

https://www.cityam.com/how-liverpool-sporting-director-michael-edwards-rose-to-the-very-top/

Its a hell of a lot easier to attract top talent when you are winning leagues and playing in the Champions League. Brands has somehow managed to lure three players from Barcalona and another rough diamond from Juve.

Out of interest, how many of Liverpool's signings from the last two seasons have gone on to be a hit? You wont need many fingers to count them.

Absolute fluff piece. Keita cost £50m and barely gets a game yet they use Solanke as the example that didn't work out but then point out they still made a profit.

[RuffRob]

Up to now Brands has been fairly hamstrung a bit in having to of load players on expensive wages that nobody wants to take of our hands. 

I think this job has to be given an absolute 5years minimum, at least 2 or 3 to lay the foundations and then two or three more to begin to develop it. Especially if one of your remits is to bring in quality youth and develop them. Its definitely a slow burn of a job. 

He is not going to be perfect in the transfer market - nobody is. Some player will shine in one place and not in another, Kean for example. 

For every Richarlison, Kean and Godfrey we are going to get an Iwobi - but this model is good, bring in quality young players who in the main should increase in value.  Not every one is going to to a hit - its a bit of a numbers game, if on average you turn a profit whilst improving the squad quality its what we want to be seeing.  You need to see how this turns out over 5-6 seasons.

To me there is also two tiers of youngster - high value ones in there early 20's that are straight in to the first team squad. Then you have the under 20's, cheaper but little more risky as have little or no senior football behind them - but have the profiles to develop in to quality players- we hope. These might take even longer to bear fruit, as the chances of getting major 'hits' might only be one cutting the mustard every two or three seasons, especially as our first team squad improves in quality. 

With regards to Lingard and King - if looking for a player as back up to DCL and somebody who could nick you a goal here an there, everybody takes King all day long. King was probably most suitable option out there and the deal was done. He's not come as a panic long term liability.  Tosun was shipped out instead in the hope somebody might part with a couple of quid and take him off our hand. All in all was the right strategy. Unlucky how its turning out with both King and Tosun. 

Lingard has scored 8 goals in 9 games- who saw that coming!!! he has never been anywhere near to those figures before. So truly a crystal ball would have been needed for that.  

West ham get the good luck (best form of his life) and we get the bad luck (injuries and more injuries).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[markjazzbassist]

2 hours ago, StevO said:

Ok, if he isn’t elite, who is and why?

As with Chelsea, comparing us to City and Liverpool, who started on their business plans quite a few years ahead of us, is ridiculous. They all had their new owners and new structures in place way before us. We tried with Steve Walsh and it didn’t work and we’ve had to start from scratch.

You don’t expect us to catch Chelsea, Liverpool and City in three years on the pitch, so why should we catch them in the same time off the pitch?

Who should we be getting who does have the pedigree you’re talking about. Because by reputation Marcel was up there rated as one of the best when we got him. And if he leaves us I doubt he will be taking a step down. 
Got to be honest Mark, you don’t have a clue what it takes to be a director of football and what they do day to day. None of us do. But it’s more than just instant success and good transfer dealings. 

Hey never said I knew it all just the way I feel about brands.  I’ve been one of his biggest backers since day one I’ve only recently come to feel this way based on his longer tenure now.  You’re right I don’t know everything he does or doesn’t do, his contract is up we’ll see what moshiri and Carlo (you know moshiri will ask his input) think this summer if he gets renewed or let go.

[Bailey]

5 hours ago, Palfy said:

That story was more than 14 months old talking of players they brought in a couple of seasons before, I honestly don’t know how what’s happening or happened anywhere else as any correlation to what has and what is happening here. 

 

4 hours ago, pete0 said:

Absolute fluff piece. Keita cost £50m and barely gets a game yet they use Solanke as the example that didn't work out but then point out they still made a profit.

I only added the link to show who was the DoF at Liverpool and that he wasnt someone from Dortmund as mentioned in the post I quoted. Probably should have explained it more! 

As I mentioned later on in my post, their signings havent actually been very good in the last couple of years. There is way too much short-termism in football!

[StevO]

6 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

Hey never said I knew it all just the way I feel about brands.  I’ve been one of his biggest backers since day one I’ve only recently come to feel this way based on his longer tenure now.  You’re right I don’t know everything he does or doesn’t do, his contract is up we’ll see what moshiri and Carlo (you know moshiri will ask his input) think this summer if he gets renewed or let go.

As you’ve been a backer of his what has made you change your mind? That’s what doesn’t make any sense. 

[Shukes]

7 hours ago, StevO said:

As you’ve been a backer of his what has made you change your mind? That’s what doesn’t make any sense. 

For me, I was expecting to see a few hidden gems come i to the team due to his extensive network. 
I would also be expecting a DoF to recognise where our weaknesses are and work to fixing them.

For whatever reasons, maybe not his fault... I don't feel we have addressed these issues. Now don’t get me wrong.... I felt we were moving in the right direction and my opinion has been swayed greatly by our form for the last ten matches.

 
But as of today...Brands may as well be Dave down the road for me. I’m not seeing anything different.

[Matt]

8 hours ago, StevO said:

As you’ve been a backer of his what has made you change your mind? That’s what doesn’t make any sense. 

I think a lot of people didn't quite grasp the size of the shitstorm we were in off the pitch. When Koeman came in, I remember saying its 5 years minimum to undo the damage the fat twat did in 6 months, its been pretty much the same story off the pitch too recovering from Walsh. Its a lack of patience to a degree, but I think it's more that expectations that should've been reasonable haven't been met, but would've been in a much better state if the foundations hadn't been completely fucked over in those 2 short years before Brands came. 

[markjazzbassist]

yeah same things shukes said, more diamond in the roughs since that's what he's known for.  to be honest chelsea has a woman who wasn't in football as their DOF running their stuff, so as far as Brands "handling the day to day" i don't really give shit, chelsea prove you can put any Exec there and get the job done.  i care about the football, and he had nothing to do with our biggest signings, they were all down to the managers.  Godfrey and Branthwaite initially look great but time will tell i'm not ready to say success story yet.  The outgoings have been less than stellar.  i was hoping he was going to be able to pull his agent strings and connection strings to get rid of people but it seems we are hamstrung every window with people who won't leave.  at other clubs they force them out, cancel contracts, make them train in a park.  look i get that it can be inhumane, but at the millions of pounds they are making, they might need that little extra push to get gone.  we have too many "nice guys'.

[Matt]

 

[StevO]

5 hours ago, Shukes said:

For me, I was expecting to see a few hidden gems come i to the team due to his extensive network. 
I would also be expecting a DoF to recognise where our weaknesses are and work to fixing them.

For whatever reasons, maybe not his fault... I don't feel we have addressed these issues. Now don’t get me wrong.... I felt we were moving in the right direction and my opinion has been swayed greatly by our form for the last ten matches.

 
But as of today...Brands may as well be Dave down the road for me. I’m not seeing anything different.

You don’t think he has recognised the weaknesses and is working to fix them?

Arent we only one point behind last seasons total with about a quarter of the season left to play? That’s progress for me. And he is definitely part of it. 

[StevO]

30 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

yeah same things shukes said, more diamond in the roughs since that's what he's known for.  to be honest chelsea has a woman who wasn't in football as their DOF running their stuff, so as far as Brands "handling the day to day" i don't really give shit, chelsea prove you can put any Exec there and get the job done.  i care about the football, and he had nothing to do with our biggest signings, they were all down to the managers.  Godfrey and Branthwaite initially look great but time will tell i'm not ready to say success story yet.  The outgoings have been less than stellar.  i was hoping he was going to be able to pull his agent strings and connection strings to get rid of people but it seems we are hamstrung every window with people who won't leave.  at other clubs they force them out, cancel contracts, make them train in a park.  look i get that it can be inhumane, but at the millions of pounds they are making, they might need that little extra push to get gone.  we have too many "nice guys'.

Absolutely no grasp on reality. Your expectations are not realistic.  If it was all so easy everyone would do it. 

[pete0]

17 minutes ago, StevO said:

You don’t think he has recognised the weaknesses and is working to fix them?

Arent we only one point behind last seasons total with about a quarter of the season left to play? That’s progress for me. And he is definitely part of it. 

Rodriguez, Doucoure, Allan, and Digne easily outweigh the bad but Brands and Ancelotti could have done more.

Squad wise you tend to have two for every position plus an extra centre mid, striker, and either a creative player or centre back.

Yet we started the season with no back up right back, left back, or right mid (technically did have a right mid but let him go leaving us short). Also could have done with an experienced centre half and striker too (although the latter has been addressed in the January).

This is the main reason we've seen Godfrey and Holgate playing full back for a fair few games and even had Coleman cameo as a right mid. That's on Brands and Ancelotti.

Naming Gbamin in the 25 squad, who was never gonna be fit, over Bolasie and Besic was a poor decision. Letting Walcott go was baffling with no other right sided winger.

One of Gomes or Sigurdsson should have been moved on and replaced with a player more suited to Ancelotti's tactics. 

Personally I would have opted to transfer Bernard whilst he still had some value and had Bolasie around as third choice for a year.