Demarai Gray

[Romey 1878]

Their winner was just another example of why he pisses me off. Has the ball and instead of just putting the ball in the box the fucking muppet stops and then loses the ball, leading to Southampton breaking on us. I'd have understood him doing that if he'd been on the left and he needed to cut inside before he put the ball in, but he was on the right, his strongest side ffs!

Then the balloon that is Anthony fucking Gordon gives a stupid free-kick away around our penalty area. Take him out on the half-way line or much further away from our penalty area. They have one of the best free-kick takers around for crying out loud! That will have been drilled into them in training all week long - do not give make silly fouls around the penalty area.

Thick as mince. That's what our players are.

[Formby]

Gray is our only forward with proper PL pace and technical ability. If we had two others up there with him with similar ability, we'd score a lot more.   

[badaids]

I love a dribbler, and he is always looking to take his man on. Not everything comes off but i love his positive manner. He might be our best player.

[Bailey]

I just cant have it. On the build up to their goal he has Che Adams 1 v 1. Instead of taking him on down the line and putting a ball in, likely worst case getting a corner using his strongest foot, he decides to try and cut inside on his left and gets tackled, losing the ball and setting up a counter. I can only assume its because he wanted to get his own shot off. 

He is a very talented player but he is also an idiot, who repeatedly makes poor decision after poor decision. 

In the first half we had numbers on a counter attack and instead of releasing the ball he holds onto it too long and gets tackled and loses the ball. 

He is the most infuriating player.

[Gwlad]

isn't that a thing with us that players hold on to the ball too long? 

[Shukes]

Our best player. Our most productive player, our top goalscorer.

Ye we should get rid of him. 

We wander why our club makes the decisions it does, yet some of the fans read like they are on the board.

[c1982]

4 minutes ago, Shukes said:

Our best player. Our most productive player, our top goalscorer.

Ye we should get rid of him. 

We wander why our club makes the decisions it does, yet some of the fans read like they are on the board.

Shows how poor we are - he’d be a bench/squad player at the vast majority of the other clubs in the league.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

He is easily our best player at the moment, can’t believe people are moaning that we have a winger who has the audacity to actually try and take someone on 

It’s no wonder the side lacks creativity if fans are going to crucify anyone who doesn’t play the simple ball. Apart from a Mina header from a corner Gray is our only goal scorer since October so I think it’s fair to say there are bigger issues than him

[StevO]

1 hour ago, Shukes said:

Our best player. Our most productive player, our top goalscorer.

Ye we should get rid of him. 

We wander why our club makes the decisions it does, yet some of the fans read like they are on the board.

None of these things make him a good player unfortunately. Our squad is terrible. Two years ago he wouldn’t get in this team. 

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

He is easily our best player at the moment, can’t believe people are moaning that we have a winger who has the audacity to actually try and take someone on 

It’s no wonder the side lacks creativity if fans are going to crucify anyone who doesn’t play the simple ball. Apart from a Mina header from a corner Gray is our only goal scorer since October so I think it’s fair to say there are bigger issues than him

It's a mixed bag with him, there's no doubt what so ever he's got the ability and belief in his game, but he needs a good brain to go with it he makes too many wrong decisions. But would we be worse off without him to right we would be we have no one else to create a spark. 

[Bailey]

2 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

He is easily our best player at the moment, can’t believe people are moaning that we have a winger who has the audacity to actually try and take someone on 

It’s no wonder the side lacks creativity if fans are going to crucify anyone who doesn’t play the simple ball. Apart from a Mina header from a corner Gray is our only goal scorer since October so I think it’s fair to say there are bigger issues than him

For me its not that he tried to take him on, he just made the stupid decision to come inside onto his weaker foot, when he would have easily rinsed him down the line on his stronger foot. 

I get that he looks like an exciting player and he has a bucket load of talent but all that does is glosses over the rest of the attacks he destroys with his terrible decision making. 

[Formby]

55 minutes ago, Bailey said:

I get that he looks like an exciting player and he has a bucket load of talent but all that does is glosses over the rest of the attacks he destroys with his terrible decision making. 

I think he is hampered by the prospect of passing to the utter dross around him.

[Shukes]

27 minutes ago, Formby said:

I think he is hampered by the prospect of passing to the utter dross around him.

Exactly. 
 

I do wander how many other teams that have a player that creates a goal, has another on target and another solidly blocked…. And feel he is a bad player?

It may be because we are such a poor team, but your best player is your best player and surely the least of your problems?

I do notice though, that even though he is so bad…. Other teams seems be even worse as he still creates against them. So in that regard, we shouldn’t have much to worry about. 
 

But true Evertonian fashion. We have no positives whatsoever. What a depressing season this is turning out to be. I’m just destroyed.

[Matt]

3 hours ago, StevO said:

None of these things make him a good player unfortunately. Our squad is terrible. Two years ago he wouldn’t get in this team. 

2 years ago is irrelevant though mate. Here and now he is our only goal threat. 

[Bailey]

43 minutes ago, Formby said:

I think he is hampered by the prospect of passing to the utter dross around him.

He did the same thing at Leicester. 

Gray just is what he is and you have to accept that. I personally would rather have a less exciting player that made more right decisions. I think it would help if he had better direction from his manager though. 

I would argue it the other way round. If he (and Gordon) actually passed the ball to teammates in better positions, then maybe other players would have more chance of scoring goals. Gray's only assist this season came from yesterday's corner!

[Formby]

14 minutes ago, Bailey said:

Gray's only assist this season came from yesterday's corner!

I think his involvement in the buildup to a goal (the cross for Holgate for Coady at Southampton, the quick layoff for Iwobi for Maupay against West Ham, off the top off my head) would better reflect his importance to us.

I want your stats on that! 

[Shukes]

Wasn’t it his cross for Minas goal as well? May be mistaken.

[Bailey]

7 hours ago, Formby said:

I think his involvement in the buildup to a goal (the cross for Holgate for Coady at Southampton, the quick layoff for Iwobi for Maupay against West Ham, off the top off my head) would better reflect his importance to us.

I want your stats on that! 

Southampton was a floaty freekick to Onana for Coady. 

Maupay at West Ham was created all by Maupay. The pass from Gray to Iwobi was as basic as it gets. 

I'd politely suggest you are clutching at straws if that is the best you can come up with!

As for @Shukes, that was fan favourite McNeil. 

[Formby]

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

Southampton was a floaty freekick to Onana for Coady. 

Maupay at West Ham was created all by Maupay. The pass from Gray to Iwobi was as basic as it gets. 

I'd politely suggest you are clutching at straws if that is the best you can come up with!

As for @Shukes, that was fan favourite McNeil. 

Was it not Holgate who headed the wonderful curling free kick back to Coady?

The basic pass - saw Iwobi in space, Iwobi takes it wonderfully and Maupay finishes very well.

His pinpoint cross to DCL for the winner in the Palace game and his darting run for the equaliser, his wonderful run against United  at OT - plenty of highlights, this season and last.

I get you don't rate him.

I would love it if we had 10 outfield players more pacey and more technically gifted than him.

Sadly, we don't!  

[StevO]

8 hours ago, Matt said:

2 years ago is irrelevant though mate. Here and now he is our only goal threat. 

Which also does not make him a good player. Just our most threatening.
It’s like saying I’m the best brick layer in my house. Neither my daughter or my wife have laid a brick in their life. And I’m also not a brick layer.

Being the best of a bad bunch is no compliment. 
 

For the record, I like him. He’s a decent player, but nothing more than decent. We’d be a bit more fucked without him, but still no compliment in that either. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

12 minutes ago, StevO said:

Which also does not make him a good player. Just our most threatening.
It’s like saying I’m the best brick layer in my house. Neither my daughter or my wife have laid a brick in their life. And I’m also not a brick layer.

Being the best of a bad bunch is no compliment. 
 

For the record, I like him. He’s a decent player, but nothing more than decent. We’d be a bit more fucked without him, but still no compliment in that either. 

He has literally been our only goal threat since October so surely he is the least of our problems?

[Matt]

55 minutes ago, StevO said:

Which also does not make him a good player. Just our most threatening.
It’s like saying I’m the best brick layer in my house. Neither my daughter or my wife have laid a brick in their life. And I’m also not a brick layer.

Being the best of a bad bunch is no compliment. 
 

For the record, I like him. He’s a decent player, but nothing more than decent. We’d be a bit more fucked without him, but still no compliment in that either. 

No, it doesn't. But it does make him our best player and biggest goal threat which isn't his fault. 

[Romey 1878]

2 hours ago, Formby said:

Was it not Holgate who headed the wonderful curling free kick back to Coady?

The basic pass - saw Iwobi in space, Iwobi takes it wonderfully and Maupay finishes very well.

His pinpoint cross to DCL for the winner in the Palace game and his darting run for the equaliser, his wonderful run against United  at OT - plenty of highlights, this season and last.

I get you don't rate him.

I would love it if we had 10 outfield players more pacey and more technically gifted than him.

Sadly, we don't!  

It wasn’t Holgate, it was Onana who headed it to Coady. 

[Bailey]

12 hours ago, Formby said:

Was it not Holgate who headed the wonderful curling free kick back to Coady?

The basic pass - saw Iwobi in space, Iwobi takes it wonderfully and Maupay finishes very well.

His pinpoint cross to DCL for the winner in the Palace game and his darting run for the equaliser, his wonderful run against United  at OT - plenty of highlights, this season and last.

I get you don't rate him.

I would love it if we had 10 outfield players more pacey and more technically gifted than him.

Sadly, we don't!  

Nope it was Onana, not that the different player makes the ball any better. 

Yep the ball to Dom was a great one, but how many more does he do that are completely fluffed. The fact you have to go back to last season more supports my point. 

It isn't that I don't rate him, I think he is probably the most dynamic and talented player in the squad but the problem is that counts for nothing if you don't make the right decisions at the end of it. Unfortunately Gray has shown throughout his career that he is a terrible decision maker. 

It is very hard to measure the impact of someone in the build up to goals and chances but as you can imagine there are statisticians that try . 

There is xGBuildUp and xGChain. xGChain looks at a players involvement in the lead up to chances created and xGBuildUp looks at the same thing but excludes key passes and shots. So one looks at all their involvements, the other looks at their involvement slightly further back in the move. It is clearly by no means perfect but it is an illustration of how involved a player is in the goal scoring opportunities we have created. The one thing it will not take into account is how many times someone like Gray has single-handedly dragged us up the field, relieved a bit of pressure etc. I am in no way underestimating that contribution that he makes, even if more often than not, he fucks it up.

All 3 of our wide players are at the same level for xGChain (below PL average) but McNeil beats him for xGBuildUp (whilst also being below PL average). Gordon is so far down that metric its unbelievable... well it isn't actually. Both Gray and McNeil do have involvement in set pieces which fluffs up their numbers a little bit more compared to Gordon but in any event all of those players are performing well below the numbers they should do on the bits that really matter and the parts of the game they are in the team for.

Gray stats are more rounded that the other two generally, McNeil is higher in assists and general involvement in chances whereas Gordon is much higher in the goal scoring related stats. I think that fits in with the overall picture as quite often in attacks, McNeil is dropping into a more central midfield spot to pick up the ball and release attacks, Gordon does bugger all apart from shoot, and Gray does a bit of both. I compared them all to Harvey Barnes (the most like for like I could come up with quickly) and not only is he above average in involvements in the xGChain stats but he is also more of a threat too. 

Basically this is all a very look winded way of saying whilst Gray looks flash, is a talented player and ultimately does bring some other benefits to the team, when it comes to actual productivity, i.e. making, creating and being involved in goals, his poor decision making and composure lets him down. 

In terms of improvement, I think he is probably too set in his ways now to really change. He has done this his entire career. The only thing that would benefit him is by giving him very clear and direct instruction. At the weekend, instead of trying the bizarre decision to come inside onto his weaker foot, he should have taken the ball to the byline and fizzed a ball into the box, very much like Aaron Lennon used to do for Spurs. He has the ability to do that half a dozen times a game and cause trouble or at least pick up some corners. 

[Formby]

11 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

It wasn’t Holgate, it was Onana who headed it to Coady. 

Ah yes, so it was.

[Formby]

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

Nope it was Onana, not that the different player makes the ball any better. 

Yep the ball to Dom was a great one, but how many more does he do that are completely fluffed. The fact you have to go back to last season more supports my point. 

It isn't that I don't rate him, I think he is probably the most dynamic and talented player in the squad but the problem is that counts for nothing if you don't make the right decisions at the end of it. Unfortunately Gray has shown throughout his career that he is a terrible decision maker. 

It is very hard to measure the impact of someone in the build up to goals and chances but as you can imagine there are statisticians that try . 

There is xGBuildUp and xGChain. xGChain looks at a players involvement in the lead up to chances created and xGBuildUp looks at the same thing but excludes key passes and shots. So one looks at all their involvements, the other looks at their involvement slightly further back in the move. It is clearly by no means perfect but it is an illustration of how involved a player is in the goal scoring opportunities we have created. The one thing it will not take into account is how many times someone like Gray has single-handedly dragged us up the field, relieved a bit of pressure etc. I am in no way underestimating that contribution that he makes, even if more often than not, he fucks it up.

All 3 of our wide players are at the same level for xGChain (below PL average) but McNeil beats him for xGBuildUp (whilst also being below PL average). Gordon is so far down that metric its unbelievable... well it isn't actually. Both Gray and McNeil do have involvement in set pieces which fluffs up their numbers a little bit more compared to Gordon but in any event all of those players are performing well below the numbers they should do on the bits that really matter and the parts of the game they are in the team for.

Gray stats are more rounded that the other two generally, McNeil is higher in assists and general involvement in chances whereas Gordon is much higher in the goal scoring related stats. I think that fits in with the overall picture as quite often in attacks, McNeil is dropping into a more central midfield spot to pick up the ball and release attacks, Gordon does bugger all apart from shoot, and Gray does a bit of both. I compared them all to Harvey Barnes (the most like for like I could come up with quickly) and not only is he above average in involvements in the xGChain stats but he is also more of a threat too. 

Basically this is all a very look winded way of saying whilst Gray looks flash, is a talented player and ultimately does bring some other benefits to the team, when it comes to actual productivity, i.e. making, creating and being involved in goals, his poor decision making and composure lets him down. 

In terms of improvement, I think he is probably too set in his ways now to really change. He has done this his entire career. The only thing that would benefit him is by giving him very clear and direct instruction. At the weekend, instead of trying the bizarre decision to come inside onto his weaker foot, he should have taken the ball to the byline and fizzed a ball into the box, very much like Aaron Lennon used to do for Spurs. He has the ability to do that half a dozen times a game and cause trouble or at least pick up some corners. 

Thank you @Bailey!  Normally, I only get a five minute break after the morning stint but your essay required two cups of green tea and  a fig roll to properly digest! 

I don't disagree with your summaries in bold and I do think our views have converged somewhat!

Going back to last season was merely to illustrate Gray's value in a game that really mattered. His wonderful goal against United  only a few weeks ago was a lovely reminder of his ability.

I do agree that any player falling behind McNeil in any stat needs a kick up the arse.    

 

[Bailey]

2 hours ago, Formby said:

Thank you @Bailey!  Normally, I only get a five minute break after the morning stint but your essay required two cups of green tea and  a fig roll to properly digest! 

I don't disagree with your summaries in bold and I do think our views have converged somewhat!

Going back to last season was merely to illustrate Gray's value in a game that really mattered. His wonderful goal against United  only a few weeks ago was a lovely reminder of his ability.

I do agree that any player falling behind McNeil in any stat needs a kick up the arse.    

 

My pleasure .

If you ever need someone to talk around the houses, I am your man! 

[StevO]

19 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

He has literally been our only goal threat since October so surely he is the least of our problems?

Never said he’s a problem. 

[Hoof_It_Nev]

Wild theory - Gray hasn't been playing because Dyche has been training him up to be a striker. It's not the maddest idea seeing as he's our top scorer. Square pegs in round holes etc but anything is worth a try at this stage surely. 

[Hoof_It_Nev]

On 03/03/2023 at 13:45, Hoof_It_Nev said:

Wild theory - Gray hasn't been playing because Dyche has been training him up to be a striker. It's not the maddest idea seeing as he's our top scorer. Square pegs in round holes etc but anything is worth a try at this stage surely.