Demarai Gray

[Palfy]

14 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

I believe we're saying the same thing - except that you took fewer words.

That maybe due to you being a published author ✍

[Matt]

15 hours ago, Bailey said:

Threatening yes but productive no. A player with his talent should be scoring and creating more chances for others. He pisses up more good opportunities than anyone else. He only has 1 goal or assist to his name this season. His underlying stats are ok compared to similar player but we know from Gray that he underperforms rather than over-achieves.

The way I see it is that it is healthy for us to sell a player every season for the books and to freshen up the squad a bit. The two players we have that we could sell at the top of their value to do that which we could replace their output fairly easily are Gray and Gordon. 

If we dont sell Gray by next summer, I think his value will go down whereas Gordon's has more chance of going up. 

 

He's 26, he's supposedly coming into his prime. He needs consistent games but that'll only mitigate the natural frustration that wingers provide. He will improve, more so when we've got a target man again. I think it's nuts to "freshen up the squad" by getting rid of a player that can create something out of nothing. Last season, despite our mess, he contributed 1 in 4 of our goals last season, this "no end product" myth is just that, although I admit he is incredibly frustrating which perpetuates it. 

[Bailey]

6 hours ago, Matt said:

He's 26, he's supposedly coming into his prime. He needs consistent games but that'll only mitigate the natural frustration that wingers provide. He will improve, more so when we've got a target man again. I think it's nuts to "freshen up the squad" by getting rid of a player that can create something out of nothing. Last season, despite our mess, he contributed 1 in 4 of our goals last season, this "no end product" myth is just that, although I admit he is incredibly frustrating which perpetuates it. 

I have seen enough players like him in my time to be highly skeptical that he is suddenly going to click and make better decisions. He has played a lot of football and if he doesn't make those decisions now, I don't believe he will suddenly start making them in the future. Gordon still has hope on that score but the same decisions you see now from Gray are the same ones he was making for Leicester and Birmingham before that. Rodgers is a better manager than Lampard too so I don't see there being any development there either. 

He can create something out of nothing but he also creates nothing out of something far too often. He wastes so many promising positions and that is why he has no end product. Someone with his ability and gets into the positions he can should have 15-20 goals and assists a season.

I openly admit that he and many a player like him frustrate the living hell out of me as they have all the talent in the world and they never make the most of it. I just think his output could be easily replaced. They might not be as flashy or have anywhere near as much skill but when it matters most, they make better decisions and ultimately the team is better for it. 

[Matt]

27 minutes ago, Bailey said:

I have seen enough players like him in my time to be highly skeptical that he is suddenly going to click and make better decisions. He has played a lot of football and if he doesn't make those decisions now, I don't believe he will suddenly start making them in the future. Gordon still has hope on that score but the same decisions you see now from Gray are the same ones he was making for Leicester and Birmingham before that. Rodgers is a better manager than Lampard too so I don't see there being any development there either. 

He can create something out of nothing but he also creates nothing out of something far too often. He wastes so many promising positions and that is why he has no end product. Someone with his ability and gets into the positions he can should have 15-20 goals and assists a season.

I openly admit that he and many a player like him frustrate the living hell out of me as they have all the talent in the world and they never make the most of it. I just think his output could be easily replaced. They might not be as flashy or have anywhere near as much skill but when it matters most, they make better decisions and ultimately the team is better for it. 

I get the frustration, I really do, and yes he should do better. But that's what wingers do. He's also not played as many minutes as people think, he was injured for quite a chunk of games last year (28 starts) yet still contributed to 25% of our goals. The idea of selling one of our most productive players again is just nuts. Richie made sense for all concerned, I feel with DM we just profit but not enough to reinvest in an adequate replacement.

[Btay]

I would hope we add another winger to the squad to challenge his position before we let him go.

[StevO]

With Gordon, Gray and McNeil, we have space for one more. Two players for every position being ideal. I don’t think we’ll see much from Townsend when he’s fit again. 

Id like to see us invest in a really top level winger next, but to compete with the three we have, not necessarily to sell one of them. 

[Bailey]

22 hours ago, Matt said:

I get the frustration, I really do, and yes he should do better. But that's what wingers do. He's also not played as many minutes as people think, he was injured for quite a chunk of games last year (28 starts) yet still contributed to 25% of our goals. The idea of selling one of our most productive players again is just nuts. Richie made sense for all concerned, I feel with DM we just profit but not enough to reinvest in an adequate replacement.

He was brilliant under Benitez. That was easily when we saw him at his best. He does have a habit of looking great and tailing off though as well. 

I think you are placing too much of an emphasis on that early season form under the old manager. Since Lampard has come in he has played 15 (started 11) games last season with only 2 assists. He has played 8 games this season and only registered 1 goal. That isn't very productive. 

Delving a little deeper to look at the quality of those basic numbers, his open play stats last season for expected goals and assists over 90 mins mean that he is expected to score just over one in every 6 games and an an assist every 7.5 games. This is based on last seasons numbers including under Benitez.

This season he is slightly better on goals (1 in 5 exactly) and worse on assists (1 in 10 exactly). 

No matter which way you cut it, those numbers aren't productive. I accept some of that is down to how we play at the moment but in the same breath, he is seen to maximum effect on the counter attack so I wouldn't expect a lot of change if we became a more dominant team.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying he should be sold at any cost but I am saying that his value probably exceeds his actual worth and as a club, we need to be smarter at making the most of that. If a big offer comes in, we will be silly to reject it. 

I believe it is one of our biggest weaknesses in recent seasons and is another cause of why we have ended up in the financial mess we have. 

The information is taken from Transfermarkt and Understat.

[Matt]

10 minutes ago, Bailey said:

He was brilliant under Benitez. That was easily when we saw him at his best. He does have a habit of looking great and tailing off though as well. 

I think you are placing too much of an emphasis on that early season form under the old manager. Since Lampard has come in he has played 15 (started 11) games last season with only 2 assists. He has played 8 games this season and only registered 1 goal. That isn't very productive. 

Delving a little deeper to look at the quality of those basic numbers, his open play stats last season for expected goals and assists over 90 mins mean that he is expected to score just over one in every 6 games and an an assist every 7.5 games. This is based on last seasons numbers including under Benitez.

This season he is slightly better on goals (1 in 5 exactly) and worse on assists (1 in 10 exactly). 

No matter which way you cut it, those numbers aren't productive. I accept some of that is down to how we play at the moment but in the same breath, he is seen to maximum effect on the counter attack so I wouldn't expect a lot of change if we became a more dominant team.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying he should be sold at any cost but I am saying that his value probably exceeds his actual worth and as a club, we need to be smarter at making the most of that. If a big offer comes in, we will be silly to reject it. 

I believe it is one of our biggest weaknesses in recent seasons and is another cause of why we have ended up in the financial mess we have. 

The information is taken from Transfermarkt and Understat.

I think you are dismissing his early season form last year too easily. He's shown what he can contribute, but we're not playing to his strengths for now. 

I get your logic, I just don't agree with it. Replacing him with cost much more than we'll get for him. 

This seasons stats don't look as good I agree, but then again our focus has been build from the back. I'm sure he'll improve as the management starts to focus on attacking play over defensive once we're more consistently solid at the back.

[Bailey]

On 09/10/2022 at 16:44, Matt said:

I think you are dismissing his early season form last year too easily. He's shown what he can contribute, but we're not playing to his strengths for now. 

I get your logic, I just don't agree with it. Replacing him with cost much more than we'll get for him. 

This seasons stats don't look as good I agree, but then again our focus has been build from the back. I'm sure he'll improve as the management starts to focus on attacking play over defensive once we're more consistently solid at the back.

Maybe I am because he was very good early last season, probably our player of the season at that point. I don't think we will ever set up in such a way to get the best out of him in that way again.

Time will tell!

[RuffRob]

For a £1.7m purchase he has more than held his own in a blue shirt. Done a lot more than lots of more expensive buys. I see his as a good squad player rather than a player you want as a week in week out starter.

If he playered more passes like he did for Iwobi on Sunday when he gets around the box it would make him a much better player to have. Maybe offer him his next contract with big assist bonuses.  

[Wiggytop]

My frustration with him is that he has really good skills, fast, quick feet, can deliver a good cross, has a good shot, but he runs into opponents too often, doesn’t get his head up and pass as often as he should, and having beaten a man, stops to try and do it again.

I’m hoping Frank and his team can work with him to improve him, having DCL to aim for may well change some of the way he plays.

For 1.7m we would be mad to move him on as a replacement will cost significantly more, McNeil was 20m and doesn’t offer anything more.

[Btay]

He’s a good player by all accounts but if we want to be a team knocking on the door of Europe, I don’t think any of our wingers are at that level. Strongly believe Gray would improved immensely by trying to do a bit less. It’s all about decision making, which is the hardest part of the game to master.

£1.7m is a steal though & great business by the club.

[Bailey]

On 12/10/2022 at 22:47, RuffRob said:

For a £1.7m purchase he has more than held his own in a blue shirt. Done a lot more than lots of more expensive buys. I see his as a good squad player rather than a player you want as a week in week out starter.

If he playered more passes like he did for Iwobi on Sunday when he gets around the box it would make him a much better player to have. Maybe offer him his next contract with big assist bonuses.  

The "pass" was a deflection off Martinez

[Matt]

12 minutes ago, Bailey said:

The "pass" was a deflection off Martinez

You understand basic physics right?

[Bailey]

6 hours ago, Matt said:

You understand basic physics right?

Yes I do. Thanks for asking.

[Matt]

11 hours ago, Bailey said:

Yes I do. Thanks for asking.

Then you understand that for a deflection to happen, the ball had to be played in that direction anyway. Wasn't a perfect pass but it was made and it led to the goal. 

[London Blue]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

Then you understand that for a deflection to happen, the ball had to be played in that direction anyway. Wasn't a perfect pass but it was made and it led to the goal. 

Got to try the pass to make an assist. He got lucky but he made that luck because he was in the right place, saw the right pass and attempted it.

He is a very good attacking player and we need him playing.

[Bailey]

5 hours ago, Matt said:

Then you understand that for a deflection to happen, the ball had to be played in that direction anyway. Wasn't a perfect pass but it was made and it led to the goal. 

No it doesn't. He could have played it left and it could have still rebounded to Iwobi. It depends on the angle of the object the ball rebounds off. 

As for the goal, I can't be sure but I don't think Gray knows Iwobi is there and I am very confident he was trying to play the ball to Gordon. 

https://www.bt.com/sport/watch/video/clips/2022/october/highlights-everton-1-2-man-utd

[Bailey]

Gray gets a fair bit of stick about his workrate but he gave Mykolenko lots of support yesterday. He was constantly one of the first midfielders back in position.

[Romey 1878]

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

Gray gets a fair bit of stick about his workrate but he gave Mykolenko lots of support yesterday. He was constantly one of the first midfielders back in position.

He can fuck off after yesterday, Bailey.

 

[Hafnia]

7 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

He can fuck off after yesterday, Bailey.

 

He had his hands on his knees?! 

[Bailey]

8 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

He can fuck off after yesterday, Bailey.

 

He is goal side of his man (Trippier).

Many other issues with that goal IMO.

[Palfy]

I noticed that straight away that he was slowly walking back up the pitch when they were still in possession, instead of sprinting across to cover the unmarked Omnicron, not acceptable at any level of football, if I was the manager I would fine him 2 weeks wages for dereliction of duty, what made it worse for me he was looking at the situation but did nothing to try and avert the danger. 

[Romey 1878]

https://www.toffeeweb.com/season/22-23/news/42812.html

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Won the FPL goal of the month

https://twitter.com/budfootball/status/1613883587283017728?s=20&t=R67NsASBkQ4Gev2kYeo-eg

[Shukes]

My heart sank when I saw an update on this thread. Was expecting to see…. Out for rest of the season. Thanks F for that!

[plaidharper]

Scores an odd goal but dribbles into trouble all the time.

[Bailey]

For every fantastic goal he scores, he wastes another 10 great opportunities. 

His corners were on the money today though. 

[Zoo 2.0]

I'll give him credit today, ran into a lot of blocked alleys but at least he looked like doing something and put a bit of effort in. 

The polar opposite of Anthony Gordon.

[Shukes]

13 minutes ago, Zoo 2.0 said:

I'll give him credit today, ran into a lot of blocked alleys but at least he looked like doing something and put a bit of effort in. 

The polar opposite of Anthony Gordon.

Exactly. He is a player that takes people on, he tried to do that today and was pretty successful. His balls in were decent as well.  Shot on target and an assist, had another one blocked. 
Not creative enough