Tom Davies

[Bailey]

12 hours ago, Hafnia said:

It certainly seems to be the case that Davies and Rafa are carrying the can 

For me there is a collective cowardice among the players.  It's the pretend leaders that bother me,. Coleman, Keane.......  Fraudulent. 

I think Rafa should certainly carry the can for exposing Davies like that (and Allan too). We know exactly the type of players they both are and Davies in particular is limited at this level. 

As for Keane and Coleman, I thought that for most of the game they led by example. They were heads and shoulders the best two outfield players. In the end, the ineptitude of the others also made them look silly for the last couple of goals, but I don't see what they could have done differently to stop the capitulation from their teammates. Some of the decision making from the likes of Godfrey, Digne and those two in midfield was shocking. You can't just bollock that out of people.

I am not saying he is the best captain or anything like that and I agree with your later post that he should ideally be on the sidelines but we missed him when he wasn't in the side. In this squad, he has to start.

[StevO]

20 hours ago, Hafnia said:

 

For the record yesterday he went to the paddock giving it the big one after Richarlison scored as though to tell them they were wrong to boo Gordon getting subbed.  I didn't see him go over to them at the final whistle. 

That really is some creative license being used for that one Haf. Could it be that he was just celebrating a goal in front of his own fans? How you can possibly think that is him telling the fans they were wrong to boo is ridiculous mate. You’re not mystic Meg for fuck sake

[Btay]

12 hours ago, Bailey said:

I think Rafa should certainly carry the can for exposing Davies like that (and Allan too). We know exactly the type of players they both are and Davies in particular is limited at this level. 

As for Keane and Coleman, I thought that for most of the game they led by example. They were heads and shoulders the best two outfield players. In the end, the ineptitude of the others also made them look silly for the last couple of goals, but I don't see what they could have done differently to stop the capitulation from their teammates. Some of the decision making from the likes of Godfrey, Digne and those two in midfield was shocking. You can't just bollock that out of people.

I am not saying he is the best captain or anything like that and I agree with your later post that he should ideally be on the sidelines but we missed him when he wasn't in the side. In this squad, he has to start.

It was pretty much unanimous here that we couldn’t replace doucoures energy with 1 centre mid and would need to play 3 in the middle to compensate so I agree.

When I saw the score ( had to watch it on replay due to work ) I instantly thought it must have been another Micheal Keane master class but admittedly he was okay, even in a side that shipped 5. We still lack a true leader though.

All in all we were tactically naive, even with 3 in the midfield im confident we score 2 goals but we allowed the game to be open which suited them perfectly. Had we stayed compact and in control I don’t think Watford have enough individual quality to break us down.

[Hafnia]

1 hour ago, StevO said:

That really is some creative license being used for that one Haf. Could it be that he was just celebrating a goal in front of his own fans? How you can possibly think that is him telling the fans they were wrong to boo is ridiculous mate. You’re not mystic Meg for fuck sake

No I'm not mystic meg but there is a load of posts on other forums and Twitter saying that

1. He had a go at fans for booing the sub of Gordon.  Separate to the chest pumping goal celebration.

2. He went over to the paddock and gave it the badge point when Richarlison scored 

Baz on toffeetv said he went over at the end and was told to fuck off basically.  The fans were incensed - if you are gonna give it the big one in the middle of the game to fans who were pissed off and voicing their disapproval at a bad sub then make sure you don't get sent for a newspaper by a striker who made you look like a Sunday league player. 

 

These players have had it far too easy in an empty goodison and if fabs were present for some of that shit last year the criticism would have been far worse. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hafnia]

12 hours ago, Bailey said:

I think Rafa should certainly carry the can for exposing Davies like that (and Allan too). We know exactly the type of players they both are and Davies in particular is limited at this level. 

As for Keane and Coleman, I thought that for most of the game they led by example. They were heads and shoulders the best two outfield players. In the end, the ineptitude of the others also made them look silly for the last couple of goals, but I don't see what they could have done differently to stop the capitulation from their teammates. Some of the decision making from the likes of Godfrey, Digne and those two in midfield was shocking. You can't just bollock that out of people.

I am not saying he is the best captain or anything like that and I agree with your later post that he should ideally be on the sidelines but we missed him when he wasn't in the side. In this squad, he has to start.

Coleman and Keane were part of the worst defensive capitulation I've seen.  Digne and Godfrey were worse but not one of them gets more than 3/10.

I could handle it if we had quiet leaders like a jagielka ...... Nothing worse than a clappy, shouty, sleeves rolled up merchant who just spouts hot air. 

[StevO]

56 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

No I'm not mystic meg but there is a load of posts on other forums and Twitter saying that

1. He had a go at fans for booing the sub of Gordon.  Separate to the chest pumping goal celebration.

2. He went over to the paddock and gave it the badge point when Richarlison scored 

Baz on toffeetv said he went over at the end and was told to fuck off basically.  The fans were incensed - if you are gonna give it the big one in the middle of the game to fans who were pissed off and voicing their disapproval at a bad sub then make sure you don't get sent for a newspaper by a striker who made you look like a Sunday league player. 

 

These players have had it far too easy in an empty goodison and if fabs were present for some of that shit last year the criticism would have been far worse. 

I keep reading “giving it the big one” and pointing at the badge. Not seeing anything to suggest celebrating a goal is anything more than celebrating a goal. 
 

When Richarlison got to the end of his celebration he did this weird thing where he acted like a bird. I never knew but apparently he is a big contributor to the RSPCB and I think the way he celebrated was in honour of them and to highlight the work they do. That was my take on his actions anyway.
 

Good grief! 

[Bailey]

1 hour ago, Btay said:

It was pretty much unanimous here that we couldn’t replace doucoures energy with 1 centre mid and would need to play 3 in the middle to compensate so I agree.

When I saw the score ( had to watch it on replay due to work ) I instantly thought it must have been another Micheal Keane master class but admittedly he was okay, even in a side that shipped 5. We still lack a true leader though.

All in all we were tactically naive, even with 3 in the midfield im confident we score 2 goals but we allowed the game to be open which suited them perfectly. Had we stayed compact and in control I don’t think Watford have enough individual quality to break us down.

I think that can be easily said from the stands or behind a TV but isn't necessarily true. A team tends to be full of leaders when they are doing well and not have any when they aren't. It was only last season, around this time, that Chelsea didn't have any leaders according to a lot of people and look at what they have achieved since.

57 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Coleman and Keane were part of the worst defensive capitulation I've seen.  Digne and Godfrey were worse but not one of them gets more than 3/10.

I could handle it if we had quiet leaders like a jagielka ...... Nothing worse than a clappy, shouty, sleeves rolled up merchant who just spouts hot air. 

You can be a leader and still be a part of a capitulation. There are 11 players on the pitch and no one player can stop the rest making a mess of it. Some players might have a quite word, others might clap and shout, others might rant and rave. Whatever they do, it doesn't make them a good or bad leader. The issue isn't that we need better leaders but we need better players generally, and on the day, better tactics.

[Hafnia]

3 hours ago, Bailey said:

I think that can be easily said from the stands or behind a TV but isn't necessarily true. A team tends to be full of leaders when they are doing well and not have any when they aren't. It was only last season, around this time, that Chelsea didn't have any leaders according to a lot of people and look at what they have achieved since.

You can be a leader and still be a part of a capitulation. There are 11 players on the pitch and no one player can stop the rest making a mess of it. Some players might have a quite word, others might clap and shout, others might rant and rave. Whatever they do, it doesn't make them a good or bad leader. The issue isn't that we need better leaders but we need better players generally, and on the day, better tactics.

Roy Keane....

There you go. Just answered it.  

Every player he played with said he got 10% more from every other player on the pitch.  Not one person got away with giving a diluted performance. ..... Matt Holland, mcateer, Fletcher, scholes, Neville........ To a man they said he got more from every player, you were kept on your toes.

 

[Bailey]

20 hours ago, Hafnia said:

Roy Keane....

There you go. Just answered it.  

Every player he played with said he got 10% more from every other player on the pitch.  Not one person got away with giving a diluted performance. ..... Matt Holland, mcateer, Fletcher, scholes, Neville........ To a man they said he got more from every player, you were kept on your toes.

 

 

Ah yes, I forgot that Roy Keane never experienced a heavy defeat in his career and nor did Notts Forest, Man Utd, Celtic or ROI when he was on the pitch.

You got me.

[Hafnia]

8 minutes ago, Bailey said:

 

Ah yes, I forgot that Roy Keane never experienced a heavy defeat in his career and nor did Notts Forest, Man Utd, Celtic or ROI when he was on the pitch.

You got me.

That's a piss poor point.

He was actually relegated at Notts Forest - does that mean he was shit? Clearly not cos he became the highest British transfer and then went on to win shit loads of trophies.

I'll throw Tim Howard into the mix too ..... But clearly you know better than professional footballers who specifically identified his leadership as being a reason that the team became better. 

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/manchester-united-roy-keane-influence-21886209

You think that capitulation happens with a Roy Keane on the pitch?  May happen on the odd occasion to a quality team - against Watford?  Bollocks.   

We have a group of players who don't hold each other accountable.  Shithouses.  Simple as that and we have no leaders where we need them. 

 

[Cornish Steve]

On 23/10/2021 at 18:41, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Rondon was totally ineffective ,Iwobi was only on the pitch 13 minutes and was equally ineffective ,Godfrey I’ve already said was shite in another thread. Digne was poor as were the entire team and yes Davies did score but then was at fault for 4 of their goals
Like I said he was worst of a very bad bunch IMO

I've seen so many people who simply don't fully recover from COVID-19. I'm wondering whether Godfrey also falls into this category.

[Matt]

On 25/10/2021 at 00:16, Bailey said:

I think Rafa should certainly carry the can for exposing Davies like that (and Allan too). We know exactly the type of players they both are and Davies in particular is limited at this level. 

As for Keane and Coleman, I thought that for most of the game they led by example. They were heads and shoulders the best two outfield players. In the end, the ineptitude of the others also made them look silly for the last couple of goals, but I don't see what they could have done differently to stop the capitulation from their teammates. Some of the decision making from the likes of Godfrey, Digne and those two in midfield was shocking. You can't just bollock that out of people.

I am not saying he is the best captain or anything like that and I agree with your later post that he should ideally be on the sidelines but we missed him when he wasn't in the side. In this squad, he has to start.

Did Keane win a single ball in the air? Apart from the assist when he stepped forward (which was quality), he was incredibly poor. 

[Matt]

On 25/10/2021 at 14:13, StevO said:

I keep reading “giving it the big one” and pointing at the badge. Not seeing anything to suggest celebrating a goal is anything more than celebrating a goal. 
 

When Richarlison got to the end of his celebration he did this weird thing where he acted like a bird. I never knew but apparently he is a big contributor to the RSPCB and I think the way he celebrated was in honour of them and to highlight the work they do. That was my take on his actions anyway.
 

Good grief! 

I think he's referring to the sub. He came over and started scowling like only he can hitting the badge. Had nothing to do with the goal. 

[StevO]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

I think he's referring to the sub. He came over and started scowling like only he can hitting the badge. Had nothing to do with the goal. 

He said when Richarlison scored. 

[Matt]

On 25/10/2021 at 13:14, Hafnia said:

No I'm not mystic meg but there is a load of posts on other forums and Twitter saying that

1. He had a go at fans for booing the sub of Gordon.  Separate to the chest pumping goal celebration.

2. He went over to the paddock and gave it the badge point when Richarlison scored 

Baz on toffeetv said he went over at the end and was told to fuck off basically.  The fans were incensed - if you are gonna give it the big one in the middle of the game to fans who were pissed off and voicing their disapproval at a bad sub then make sure you don't get sent for a newspaper by a striker who made you look like a Sunday league player. 

 

These players have had it far too easy in an empty goodison and if fabs were present for some of that shit last year the criticism would have been far worse. 

 

2 hours ago, StevO said:

He said when Richarlison scored. 

Both actually. But I think he was referring more to the sub where Seamus did get right arsey and slapping his badge. Didn't see him after the goal though, was too busy bouncing around. 

[Hafnia]

14 hours ago, Matt said:

 

Both actually. But I think he was referring more to the sub where Seamus did get right arsey and slapping his badge. Didn't see him after the goal though, was too busy bouncing around. 

It seems I picked up on two or three interactions he had with the crowd.

Certainly the interaction Matt seen is the most damning.... If fans boo a sub then it's their right - what is a player doing telling them to support team/slap badge. 

You gotta make sure you aren't found wanting in the game if you do that. And Coleman was....

[Romey 1878]

Coleman is a bit of a tit in all honesty. We laugh at the likes of Robertson and Henderson for being fake hard men but Seamus is in that category for me. 

[Bailey]

23 hours ago, Hafnia said:

That's a piss poor point.

He was actually relegated at Notts Forest - does that mean he was shit? Clearly not cos he became the highest British transfer and then went on to win shit loads of trophies.

I'll throw Tim Howard into the mix too ..... But clearly you know better than professional footballers who specifically identified his leadership as being a reason that the team became better. 

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/manchester-united-roy-keane-influence-21886209

You think that capitulation happens with a Roy Keane on the pitch?  May happen on the odd occasion to a quality team - against Watford?  Bollocks.   

We have a group of players who don't hold each other accountable.  Shithouses.  Simple as that and we have no leaders where we need them. 

 

You are going around the houses again Haf.

The point is, you have no idea whether or not Seamus is a good leader. I can find you the same type of articles you can find me about his leadership. Here is one:

https://punditarena.com/football/jeff-simon/seamus-coleman-abdoulaye-doucoure-everton/

Does that mean I know Seamus is a good leader... Of course it doesn't but you seem to treat this stuff like its gospel.

Of course capitulations can happen with even the best players on the pitch. Its football. Here is an example:

https://www.11v11.com/matches/tottenham-hotspur-v-manchester-united-01-january-1996-22383/

How on earth could a very average Spurs score 4 goals in 30 minutes with the mighty leader of Keane on the pitch? I don't even have to mention the number of times he got himself sent off and put his teammates in the shit, or when he threw them under the bus, but I guess that is all fine.

My point is, what happened on Saturday isn't to do with leaders, it is to do with the players not doing the job that is asked of them. The finger needs to be pointed at those players and not Coleman and Keane IMO.

 

21 hours ago, Matt said:

Did Keane win a single ball in the air? Apart from the assist when he stepped forward (which was quality), he was incredibly poor. 

Yes, he won more aerial balls than any other player with 8. The next best was Digne on 5.

Godrey in contrast won two, of which one of them was given as a foul against him.

[Matt]

8 minutes ago, Bailey said:

You are going around the houses again Haf.

The point is, you have no idea whether or not Seamus is a good leader. I can find you the same type of articles you can find me about his leadership. Here is one:

https://punditarena.com/football/jeff-simon/seamus-coleman-abdoulaye-doucoure-everton/

Does that mean I know Seamus is a good leader... Of course it doesn't but you seem to treat this stuff like its gospel.

Of course capitulations can happen with even the best players on the pitch. Its football. Here is an example:

https://www.11v11.com/matches/tottenham-hotspur-v-manchester-united-01-january-1996-22383/

How on earth could a very average Spurs score 4 goals in 30 minutes with the mighty leader of Keane on the pitch? I don't even have to mention the number of times he got himself sent off and put his teammates in the shit, or when he threw them under the bus, but I guess that is all fine.

My point is, what happened on Saturday isn't to do with leaders, it is to do with the players not doing the job that is asked of them. The finger needs to be pointed at those players and not Coleman and Keane IMO.

 

Yes, he won more aerial balls than any other player with 8. The next best was Digne on 5.

Godrey in contrast won two, of which one of them was given as a foul against him.

Really?! Must've been in the warm up

[MC11]

8 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

Coleman is a bit of a tit in all honesty. We laugh at the likes of Robertson and Henderson for being fake hard men but Seamus is in that category for me. 

Disagree, probably the only one who actually cares. 

[Gwlad]

He cares and is Everton through and through but we haven't had real leadership since Neville and Jags, though he was found wanting at times. This current squad is crying out for a passionate and strong leader. 

[Hafnia]

21 hours ago, Bailey said:

You are going around the houses again Haf.

The point is, you have no idea whether or not Seamus is a good leader. I can find you the same type of articles you can find me about his leadership. Here is one:

https://punditarena.com/football/jeff-simon/seamus-coleman-abdoulaye-doucoure-everton/

Does that mean I know Seamus is a good leader... Of course it doesn't but you seem to treat this stuff like its gospel.

Of course capitulations can happen with even the best players on the pitch. Its football. Here is an example:

https://www.11v11.com/matches/tottenham-hotspur-v-manchester-united-01-january-1996-22383/

How on earth could a very average Spurs score 4 goals in 30 minutes with the mighty leader of Keane on the pitch? I don't even have to mention the number of times he got himself sent off and put his teammates in the shit, or when he threw them under the bus, but I guess that is all fine.

My point is, what happened on Saturday isn't to do with leaders, it is to do with the players not doing the job that is asked of them. The finger needs to be pointed at those players and not Coleman and Keane IMO.

 

Yes, he won more aerial balls than any other player with 8. The next best was Digne on 5.

Godrey in contrast won two, of which one of them was given as a foul against him.

Godfrey seems to have alerted your confirmation bias button doesn't he?not sure what the fuck he has got to do with the leadership of Coleman.

He's playing shit.  End of.  You don't need to get all x-whatever stat to show this.

Coleman is a shit leader. You know why?  Because he has been the captain of our side in what I would call the most uninspired, cowardly, gutless, fraudulent period of supporting Everton.  

You also wanna know why he's shit?  Cos he is so far down the rabbit hole of post match "post match rally cries" that I think I've seen 50 different iterations of the same thing.  "It's on us to put it right"............  Yes we know that Seamus, the fans let you know when it's shit but you take it personally by cupping your ears when scoring a goal after stinking the gaff out for 3 months. 

 He's a blag artist.  Full of words - yet when players on the pitch are having a handbag fight over taking a set piece he's busy looking at his laces. 

He's been a good player for us  - if our recruitment was handled correctly he wouldn't even be here - let alone wearing an armband. Maybe Doucore sees a good captain as someone who welcomes you to the club - I think he needs to expand it to being someone who tells you to fuck off too. 

I'm not even getting on to the Roy Keane leadership debate.  You've gone to a match in 1996?! FFS that highlights it all for me.  Shall I post up a link for nearly every fucking home game for us last season and many many games in the period that has seen this bunch of shithouses get so many managers exited?  How many managers were sacked with Roy Keane as their captain???

listen to ex United players talking now about how this current team could do with him.  Reckon we've got any players in our side who after a yellow card preventing them from playing in the European cup final would have mauled Juventus to get his team mates there? No fucking chance. 

Seamus would do a cracking post match "we need to look at ourselves" blag though. 

[Hafnia]

21 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

Coleman is a bit of a tit in all honesty. We laugh at the likes of Robertson and Henderson for being fake hard men but Seamus is in that category for me. 

The difference is they hate losing that much that you will see Robertson ruffle Messi head, you will see Henderson bark at a supposed superstar and bollock Salah...... They do it cos they want to win at all costs. 

I don't see that with Coleman whatsoever.  It wouldn't take much to get at a few of our halfarsed idiots - I've never seen him dig out players.  Fabian Delph against Newcastle?  Coleman said fuck all.  Richarlison squabble over DCL penno?  Townsend sorted it.

[Bailey]

15 hours ago, Gwlad all over said:

He cares and is Everton through and through but we haven't had real leadership since Neville and Jags, though he was found wanting at times. This current squad is crying out for a passionate and strong leader. 

There were a lot of questions over those two as well though. It used to be about Neville pointing and Jags doing the same as Coleman and Co are being accused of now. Being passionate doesn't necessarily make someone a good leader. You don't see VVD screaming at people. Fernandinho and Dias at City aren't hauling people over the coals. They do their job and then they organise others.

2 hours ago, Hafnia said:

Godfrey seems to have alerted your confirmation bias button doesn't he?not sure what the fuck he has got to do with the leadership of Coleman.

He's playing shit.  End of.  You don't need to get all x-whatever stat to show this.

Coleman is a shit leader. You know why?  Because he has been the captain of our side in what I would call the most uninspired, cowardly, gutless, fraudulent period of supporting Everton.  

You also wanna know why he's shit?  Cos he is so far down the rabbit hole of post match "post match rally cries" that I think I've seen 50 different iterations of the same thing.  "It's on us to put it right"............  Yes we know that Seamus, the fans let you know when it's shit but you take it personally by cupping your ears when scoring a goal after stinking the gaff out for 3 months. 

 He's a blag artist.  Full of words - yet when players on the pitch are having a handbag fight over taking a set piece he's busy looking at his laces. 

He's been a good player for us  - if our recruitment was handled correctly he wouldn't even be here - let alone wearing an armband. Maybe Doucore sees a good captain as someone who welcomes you to the club - I think he needs to expand it to being someone who tells you to fuck off too. 

I'm not even getting on to the Roy Keane leadership debate.  You've gone to a match in 1996?! FFS that highlights it all for me.  Shall I post up a link for nearly every fucking home game for us last season and many many games in the period that has seen this bunch of shithouses get so many managers exited?  How many managers were sacked with Roy Keane as their captain???

listen to ex United players talking now about how this current team could do with him.  Reckon we've got any players in our side who after a yellow card preventing them from playing in the European cup final would have mauled Juventus to get his team mates there? No fucking chance. 

Seamus would do a cracking post match "we need to look at ourselves" blag though. 

Godfrey has nothing to do with Coleman's leadership qualities, please read it again. The Godfrey comment is in respect of comparing his heading stats to Keane, which was a reply to Matt's post.

You need to open your eyes on the post match rally cries. Post match interviews aren't for the players or even the fans. They are for the media that ask the same stupid questions time and time again and the large majority of all players in those interviews, including the managers, do what they need to get through them. You have no idea what happens when he gets back into the changing rooms.

It shouldn't just be Coleman either. This is a group of experienced professional footballers who want to win. If a changing room relies on one voice, it won't be a successful club. Have you ever thought that this is maybe more of a problem? i.e. too many who are on inflated wages that don't care. Coleman doesn't sign those players and bring them into the club. You can forgive the likes of Godfrey and Davies because of their age, but where are the rest of them? Why do they not get the same treatment?

Maybe if we had the same quality of players and managers that Keane enjoyed, maybe we wouldn't be in the shit we are in now. When you look at the United side, look at how many players were in that group that tore into each other. Look at the manager as well. Keane might have got extra out of some of the players he played with, but so did Schmeichel, Pallister, Bruce, Cantona, the Nevilles, etc.

 

 

[Hafnia]

45 minutes ago, Bailey said:

There were a lot of questions over those two as well though. It used to be about Neville pointing and Jags doing the same as Coleman and Co are being accused of now. Being passionate doesn't necessarily make someone a good leader. You don't see VVD screaming at people. Fernandinho and Dias at City aren't hauling people over the coals. They do their job and then they organise others.

Godfrey has nothing to do with Coleman's leadership qualities, please read it again. The Godfrey comment is in respect of comparing his heading stats to Keane, which was a reply to Matt's post.

You need to open your eyes on the post match rally cries. Post match interviews aren't for the players or even the fans. They are for the media that ask the same stupid questions time and time again and the large majority of all players in those interviews, including the managers, do what they need to get through them. You have no idea what happens when he gets back into the changing rooms.

It shouldn't just be Coleman either. This is a group of experienced professional footballers who want to win. If a changing room relies on one voice, it won't be a successful club. Have you ever thought that this is maybe more of a problem? i.e. too many who are on inflated wages that don't care. Coleman doesn't sign those players and bring them into the club. You can forgive the likes of Godfrey and Davies because of their age, but where are the rest of them? Why do they not get the same treatment?

Maybe if we had the same quality of players and managers that Keane enjoyed, maybe we wouldn't be in the shit we are in now. When you look at the United side, look at how many players were in that group that tore into each other. Look at the manager as well. Keane might have got extra out of some of the players he played with, but so did Schmeichel, Pallister, Bruce, Cantona, the Nevilles, etc.

 

 

Make no mistake - this isn't a one player fixes all situation. I've not said it is.....

What is glaring to me is that in Coleman's time as captain he has worn that armband through some seriously shit team performances.  He gets more animated with the fans than his own team mates - explain that please because to me I find it shocking. 

How often have you seen him call a player out and point at what he didnt do?  You say van dyke is a quiet leader?  That's absolute nonsense - he is non stop.  I watched Holland with no fans in the stadium and his voice was all you heard.   I recall him audibly telling Andy Robertson "stop the fucking cross" on a live match....

 

 

 

[Bailey]

22 hours ago, Hafnia said:

Make no mistake - this isn't a one player fixes all situation. I've not said it is.....

What is glaring to me is that in Coleman's time as captain he has worn that armband through some seriously shit team performances.  He gets more animated with the fans than his own team mates - explain that please because to me I find it shocking. 

How often have you seen him call a player out and point at what he didnt do?  You say van dyke is a quiet leader?  That's absolute nonsense - he is non stop.  I watched Holland with no fans in the stadium and his voice was all you heard.   I recall him audibly telling Andy Robertson "stop the fucking cross" on a live match....

 

Unfortunately for Coleman he is just captain in a shit period of being related to Everton.

You don't know what he gets animated at off the pitch. You see him for 90 minutes, probably half the time he is off camera or if you are at the game, out of view, so probably far less that 90 minutes. I haven't see the things you have said, so I cannot comment on what he was doing but based on what others have said in response it seems up in the air anyway.

I have seen him regularly talking to the other players. I have seen it from the other members of the back 4 too. Holgate loves to run his mouth but that doesn't make him any good as a player or a captain. I even remember seeing it from both Townsend and even Rondon in the last game. 

Whilst I find it slightly impressive that you managed to work out it was VVD that you could hear amongst 22 other players and however many coaching staff, I didn't say he didn't talk to his teammates. You aren't going to make it to his level by not being able to communicate. I am saying he isn't some loon going nuts and calling his teammates out every 5 seconds. He isn't smashing through players or moaning at the ref whenever he gets the chance either. If you compared him to Henderson, you would say he was a quiet leader.

[Hafnia]

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

Unfortunately for Coleman he is just captain in a shit period of being related to Everton.

You don't know what he gets animated at off the pitch. You see him for 90 minutes, probably half the time he is off camera or if you are at the game, out of view, so probably far less that 90 minutes. I haven't see the things you have said, so I cannot comment on what he was doing but based on what others have said in response it seems up in the air anyway.

I have seen him regularly talking to the other players. I have seen it from the other members of the back 4 too. Holgate loves to run his mouth but that doesn't make him any good as a player or a captain. I even remember seeing it from both Townsend and even Rondon in the last game. 

Whilst I find it slightly impressive that you managed to work out it was VVD that you could hear amongst 22 other players and however many coaching staff, I didn't say he didn't talk to his teammates. You aren't going to make it to his level by not being able to communicate. I am saying he isn't some loon going nuts and calling his teammates out every 5 seconds. He isn't smashing through players or moaning at the ref whenever he gets the chance either. If you compared him to Henderson, you would say he was a quiet leader.

 

[StevO]

19 hours ago, Hafnia said:

 

In 90 minutes he was only talking for 60 seconds? Shit him!

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Not sure why this has become the Coleman thread but for what it’s worth I totally disagree with Haf and think Coleman is in fact a very good captain

Its all about opinions but for me it’s far more telling and far more important that all of the managers he has played under and his team mates at both club and international level all also disagree with Haf and I think they are in a far better position to judge

I’ve witnessed Coleman do everything Haf is lauding Van Dyke for and more but Haf is never going to change his opinion . It’s not difficult to find examples of Coleman being a good skipper

 

https://punditarena.com/football/jeff-simon/seamus-coleman-abdoulaye-doucoure-everton/

https://www.the42.ie/david-meyler-seamus-coleman-everton-liverpool-5357270-Feb2021/

https://theathletic.co.uk/2471187/2021/03/23/ben-godfrey-seamus-coleman-is-the-everton-leader-id-love-to-become/https://www.balls.ie/football/seamus-coleman-leadership-372768

 

[Hafnia]

39 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Not sure why this has become the Coleman thread but for what it’s worth I totally disagree with Haf and think Coleman is in fact a very good captain

Its all about opinions but for me it’s far more telling and far more important that all of the managers he has played under and his team mates at both club and international level all also disagree with Haf and I think they are in a far better position to judge

I’ve witnessed Coleman do everything Haf is lauding Van Dyke for and more but Haf is never going to change his opinion . It’s not difficult to find examples of Coleman being a good skipper

 

https://punditarena.com/football/jeff-simon/seamus-coleman-abdoulaye-doucoure-everton/

https://www.the42.ie/david-meyler-seamus-coleman-everton-liverpool-5357270-Feb2021/

https://theathletic.co.uk/2471187/2021/03/23/ben-godfrey-seamus-coleman-is-the-everton-leader-id-love-to-become/https://www.balls.ie/football/seamus-coleman-leadership-372768

 

Dunc.  3 articles saying how great he is at being a one man welcoming committee, popular nice bloke and all round good egg 

Not disputing that for one second.  I've already said - a great captain isn't necessarily popular. 

Probably epitomises Everton really, really good at all the community stuff and PR.  Just not won anything in years.