Chelsea (Away) Sunday August 27th

[MikeO]

can we shorten that to bloody fools?

 

 

You should look in the mirror less Rubes .

[rubecula]

 

 

You should look in the mirror less Rubes .

can/t help it Mike the view is wonderful

[Aidan]

You realise we had the same manager last season?

 

If you play crap it will catch up with you. The warning signs were there from City but people glossed over it because we got a point. The same applies to Thursday when we were a wonder goal and a penalty save from losing that game.

 

I get that people won't agree over this but there must a question mark over him. I get that difference in opinion, but we aren't Chelsea fans that only turned up when the money came. We have all been here through thick and thin. This is about money spent, expecting the world, it's whether the man in charge is getting the most from the team and has been for the last 14 or so months.

I'm not saying he is perfect, but once he has his squad the way he wants with time to gel it we will be much better. He's done good things as a manager and I'm sure he can do better eventually.

[Bailey]

 

They got a "wonder goal" as well Bailey, up until then we were totally comfortable. Even if they'd scored the pen they'd still have needed another two which was never going to happen, there was never moment in that game that we were in danger of going out after the equaliser.

Yep they did and it was a great strike too but I thought they were threatening more than us and Pickford was forced into a really good save in the first half too.

[Bailey]

I'm not saying he is perfect, but once he has his squad the way he wants with time to gel it we will be much better. He's done good things as a manager and I'm sure he can do better eventually.

Completely understand that Aiden, and it's possible. I don't necessarily share that optimism but that's neither here nor there. Its the other comments originally made by MJB that I take issue with in that expressing the alternative opinion doesn't make someone a real and loyal fan.

[Newty82]

 

For #4, I'm usually the one calling for patience. It does take time to build a team, but how long has Koeman been here now? Do we have a clear strategy? Are we playing good football? Are we getting the most out of every player? Is there a palpable sense of confidence, even in the face of defeat? This combination of factors makes me worried. I really don't see much in the way of progress after more than 12 months. Do you?

Come on Steve, you've spoken out about Koeman many times in the past year. Many times.

 

I've got one or two doubts about him (keeping them close to my chest until after transfer window), so I'm not exactly 'in love' with the guy, but there are Evertonians out there who are just jumping at every opportunity to throw as much crap his way as possible, and that's been going on since last season. For what ever reason, and that's personal to each individual. Even before kick off, you can sense the claws are out and ready to scratch. Me personally, I can't follow football in this way.

 

Regarding progress...yes, I've seen progress. We finished 11th 2 years in a row. Koeman come in and got us to 7th and back into Europe. Perfect? No, but that's progress. In terms of the squad, we've got rid of mid to lower table (even lower division) players like Cleverly, Oviedo, Gibson, McGeady, Kone, Pienaar and brought in higher quality replacements. Look at the starting 11 against Chelsea back in November to now.

 

Yes, the playing style so far is not what we want. I expected better myself. I'd be worried if Koeman praised our performance after every game. But he doesn't. Which means he knows we need to improve. Now allow him the time to get these players where they need to be.

[Newty82]

You know whats sad? That we are having these sort of 'debates' and its still August. 3 league games played. And we are chatting this way.

 

We've lost ourselves a bit I think.

[Aidan]

Completely understand that Aiden, and it's possible. I don't necessarily share that optimism but that's neither here nor there. Its the other comments originally made by MJB that I take issue with in that expressing the alternative opinion doesn't make someone a real and loyal fan.

I don't think he meant it like that mate. Marks a good lad. Probably just a bit disgruntled like the rest of us from the shit house performance

[chalkpie]

When was the last performance by this team that afterwards you said "Holy Mother tits and jugs, Fatman!!! We were bloody fuggin brilliant gov!!!!"?

 

This is actually a serious question because I can't remember....

Edited August 28, 2017 by chalkpie

[markjazzbassist]

When was the last performance by this team that afterwards you said "Holy Mother tits and jugs, Fatman!!! We were bloody fuggin brilliant gov!!!!"?

 

This is actually a serious question because I can't remember....

Man city last season 4-0.

[Cornish Steve]

Man city last season 4-0.

 

Yes, it was against Man City. But the obvious question is, why the inconsistency? Why is it the exception to the rule?

[Cornish Steve]

Come on Steve, you've spoken out about Koeman many times in the past year. Many times.

 

Yes, I have. By the end of last year, I was quite critical because we appeared to be making no real progress. Then, as the new year unfolded, and our game load was less than that of others (we were out of all competitions), things began to improve. Koeman started bringing in youngsters, and they did well. But then the season rather fizzled out, and we ended where we expected to be. Now the cycle is beginning again.

 

I've got one or two doubts about him (keeping them close to my chest until after transfer window), so I'm not exactly 'in love' with the guy, but there are Evertonians out there who are just jumping at every opportunity to throw as much crap his way as possible, and that's been going on since last season. For what ever reason, and that's personal to each individual. Even before kick off, you can sense the claws are out and ready to scratch. Me personally, I can't follow football in this way.

 

I'm not "jumping at every opportunity to throw as much crap his way as possible". I praised him for bringing through youngsters. I've applauded those times when he gets it right. This weekend, I was really hopeful. I'd been calling for Schneiderlin and Gueye not to play together, and they didn't (albeit a forced decision). I wanted to see youngsters play, and Davies and Holgate were in - although the former, I would say, wasn't sure or confident of his role. Actually, I didn't view the setup as overly defensive, what with Rooney, Sandro, and Sigurdsson pushing forward. But the strategy was all wrong, we gave Chelsea way too much respect, and the Moyes mindset was there of not losing (instead of going out there to win). I don't want to be negative, but I will be honest about how I feel.

 

Regarding progress...yes, I've seen progress. We finished 11th 2 years in a row. Koeman come in and got us to 7th and back into Europe. Perfect? No, but that's progress. In terms of the squad, we've got rid of mid to lower table (even lower division) players like Cleverly, Oviedo, Gibson, McGeady, Kone, Pienaar and brought in higher quality replacements. Look at the starting 11 against Chelsea back in November to now.

 

It's only progress if the results indicate it is. We could play the entire England team for all I care, but if we hover mid-table then it's not progress. Indeed, I would argue (although it's too early really to suggest this) that we've spent a boatload of money just to spin our wheels.

 

 

Yes, the playing style so far is not what we want. I expected better myself. I'd be worried if Koeman praised our performance after every game. But he doesn't. Which means he knows we need to improve. Now allow him the time to get these players where they need to be.

 

But the poor style and lack of creativity has carried over from last year - despite seeing many different players. The common factor is the manager: He's not inspiring the team or getting the best out of them. Koeman can say all he wants about needing to improve, but he said that 12 months ago. Where's the progress?

 

The best answer to these questions, of course, is to go out there and beat Spurs next game - a team that's supposed to finish above us. If we don't do that, we'll be mid-table again, but with Stoke, West Brom, Southampton and others breathing more closely down our neck this time.

[Peter H]

Played a shitter in this game. Koeman needs to forget the back three crap. At least against good teams because the wingbacks just end up defending. So we end up with 5 defenders sitting back.

 

I miss Barry

We need that striker, Sandro needs time to adjust to the prem.

 

Back to basics, 442 against Spurs! Please!

Edited August 28, 2017 by Peter H

[Matt]

You know whats sad? That we are having these sort of 'debates' and its still August. 3 league games played. And we are chatting this way.

 

We've lost ourselves a bit I think.

this is exactly why I've been trying not to make many comments on Koeman and shaking my head / laughing watching the overreaction on both sides.

 

We've played poorly, predominately because of shit tactics. We've also made maaaaaassive changes to the squad, something I've been quite vocal about for a long time. Managers don't change overnight, anyone seeing this start to the season as a shock didn't pay attention last season and/or were (rightly) giving time for change. Now the honeymoon period is over it's back to reality.

 

We've also already played more games than pretty much anyone else, done our transfers most early on, got 4 points from 9 when we expected maybe 3, qualified for the group stages of EL and still looking to sign 1-2 more players.

 

The performances have been awful so far, and people have every right to chastise and blame the manager - it's his job. but they'll improve as the team settles, people come back from injury and (hopefully) Koeman evolves a bit.

[Shukes]

Last few pages seem to be returning to TT forum speech.

There is nothing wrong with critisicing or applauding. We are paying fans and deserve the right.

I have never booed at a game.

I haven't called for the manager to be sacked.

I applaud when I think he or the players have done well.

I critisice when I'm dissapointed.

 

Someone mentioned that losing 5-2 but having is real go is worse than us not trying and losing 2-0.

There is no factual right or wrong, just how individuals see it.

I honestly would rather go down fighting any day. Losing 5-2 but making the champions worry a bit is much better than giving them the day off for me.

Both results give you points.but I am sure that the same performance against a team like Stoke wouldn't be a scraped 3 points.

 

The next few days are going to be really important.

[Hafnia]

Doom and gloom crew is back, love the koeman out shouts already. hyperbole and overreaction in full effect. one more loss and moshiri out chants?

 

Seems like some of you have become as plastic as Chelsea after one big spend. Ffs

How hilarious. You accuse others of hyperbole by creating some mass hysterical over reaction which hasn't even been evident.

 

The manager is being questioned - rightly so. He's not the subject of some "koeman out" campaign.

 

Sorry MJB but if you would like for me to paint a prettier picture than is being painted then our free spending manager needs to show some form of tactical nouse and bollocks. So far all he's shown me is excuses and repeated set ups against the top sides that don't work.

[Romey 1878]

Man city last season 4-0.

 

Despite the result I wouldn't say we played fantastically and battered them. I remember being sat in the Gwladys thinking it was a smash and grab job.

[Hafnia]

 

Despite the result I wouldn't say we played fantastically and battered them. I remember being sat in the Gwladys thinking it was a smash and grab job.

I remember thinking "We won't get to play these on such an off day again"

[Bailey]

I remember thinking "We won't get to play these on such an off day again"

 

Part of the reason we smashed them was because they had Zabeleta and Toure in central midfield. I mean come on, in what world was that ever going to be a good idea when playing against a young lad and the Duracell bunny?

 

 

this is exactly why I've been trying not to make many comments on Koeman and shaking my head / laughing watching the overreaction on both sides.

 

We've played poorly, predominately because of shit tactics. We've also made maaaaaassive changes to the squad, something I've been quite vocal about for a long time. Managers don't change overnight, anyone seeing this start to the season as a shock didn't pay attention last season and/or were (rightly) giving time for change. Now the honeymoon period is over it's back to reality.

 

We've also already played more games than pretty much anyone else, done our transfers most early on, got 4 points from 9 when we expected maybe 3, qualified for the group stages of EL and still looking to sign 1-2 more players.

 

The performances have been awful so far, and people have every right to chastise and blame the manager - it's his job. but they'll improve as the team settles, people come back from injury and (hopefully) Koeman evolves a bit.

 

You are saying:

 

1. We have played crap

2. We played crap last year

3. We have played with shit tactics

4. And we have made too many changes to the squad

5. And that you hope a manager who has almost always played this way throughout his managerial career will change his approach.

 

5 is very unlikely to happen.

 

I thought you were posting to support Koeman

[Matt]

 

Part of the reason we smashed them was because they had Zabeleta and Toure in central midfield. I mean come on, in what world was that ever going to be a good idea when playing against a young lad and the Duracell bunny?

 

 

 

You are saying:

 

1. We have played crap

2. We played crap last year

3. We have played with shit tactics

4. And we have made too many changes to the squad

5. And that you hope a manager who has almost always played this way throughout his managerial career will change his approach.

 

5 is very unlikely to happen.

 

I thought you were posting to support Koeman

I've not been a big fan of him since day one, so not sure why you'd think that

 

However, I said I'd wait until after Christmas before I judged him. This does not mean that he's immune to justified criticism in the meantime. I'm trying to be balanced, but it's taking quite a bit of effort

Edited August 28, 2017 by Matt

[Hafnia]

I think What many of us are seeing is a manager who is getting backed heavily in the transfer market - yet we don't look much better than what we seen a year ago.

 

I think one of my initial posts about him was that I expected him to get the most out of the squad we had... after all one of the reasons martinez got the sack was due to him underperforming with the players he had.

 

All the hype and expectation after signing top quality players seems to have faded into an apathetic drearyness having watched us scramble a win against stoke, Baton down the hatches again st a 10 man city and look far from convincing again st two European sides.

[pete0]

7th used to be the expectation now it's the minimum. Martinez got the sack for finishing below 7th with the 7th best team in the league. Koeman is getting paid more and backed in the market to do better.

 

Playing the way he sets out can you see us breaking into the top 6? If not what are we paying Koeman for?

[Haiku]

7th used to be the expectation now it's the minimum. Martinez got the sack for finishing below 7th with the 7th best team in the league. Koeman is getting paid more and backed in the market to do better.

 

Playing the way he sets out can you see us breaking into the top 6? If not what are we paying Koeman for?

Martinez had 7th best team at his disposal with little to no budget. Currently Koeman has the 7th best team with £150m already spent.

[chalkpie]

 

Yes, it was against Man City. But the obvious question is, why the inconsistency? Why is it the exception to the rule?

 

Exactly. And to have to reach back THAT far for a stellar performance (was it though, honestly?) is worrisome. I'm not in the "Sack Koeman" camp by any means, but I'm now scratching my head at our performances for a while now wondering wtf is going on. We've made some inroads since Martinez left, but we've also hit some brick walls.

[Shukes]

Does anyone feel that our last seven or eight games last season were good to watch?

Did we get to right, or is this a continuation of that?

[Cornish Steve]

Does anyone feel that our last seven or eight games last season were good to watch?

Did we get to right, or is this a continuation of that?

 

The worrying answer is that it's a continuation of that but with mostly different and more expensive players.

[markjazzbassist]

I don't think he meant it like that mate. Marks a good lad. Probably just a bit disgruntled like the rest of us from the shit house performance

 

agreed. i back everton just like everyone else except i'm giving koeman the same 2.75 years at the helm that Martinez got. won't call for his sacking unless we get relegated until then. This summer was his first real transfer window, he had a lot of dead wood to get rid of. January window, Summer window we'll see how next campaign goes and then i'll make a decision.

 

I"m not quick to judge.

[DavisJD]

Have a read through of Johan Cruff's first couple of seasons at Barcelona, he brought in Koeman and some big signings in his first season as well as youth players that wouldn't previously be given an opportunity due to there short height.

He adopted his new style of total football, it didn't produce silverware in the first season, but then they dominated.

 

I see Koemans players his bringing in an adaption of this, Rooney, Gylfi, Klaasen, Gueye, Davies, DCL and hopefully Ramirez. They can all defend deep, exchange positions and move forward into the box and provide a goal threat.

 

It will take time, I hope he can make it work because his recruiting seems to be to make his variation of total football.

[Sparks FC]

Last few pages seem to be returning to TT forum speech.

There is nothing wrong with critisicing or applauding. We are paying fans and deserve the right.

I have never booed at a game.

I haven't called for the manager to be sacked.

I applaud when I think he or the players have done well.

I critisice when I'm dissapointed.

 

Someone mentioned that losing 5-2 but having is real go is worse than us not trying and losing 2-0.

There is no factual right or wrong, just how individuals see it.

I honestly would rather go down fighting any day. Losing 5-2 but making the champions worry a bit is much better than giving them the day off for me.

Both results give you points.but I am sure that the same performance against a team like Stoke wouldn't be a scraped 3 points.

 

The next few days are going to be really important.

 

All depends on the overall league finishes. It was great when Martinez was all out attack and he we were pushing for 4th, not so when we were holding onto 11th and making Stoke look like Barca at home and hitting 4 past us.

 

Koeman's first job was to swing the pendulum back to the point where we weren't conceding for fun against shit teams. He's done that, it's now his job to get us creating and scoring. Considering both our best attacking and creating outlets from last season (stats wise) are missing now, I'm prepared to give him some leeway, regardless of how much we've spent because of the 140 million or so we have spent, only 75 million of that is on attacking players. We've let 100 million or so of attacking players walk out the door in the same breath.

 

Sometimes it never starts the way it's meant to finish, but I'm sure he has a vision and what we are seeing isn't the end game of that vision I'm sure.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Sparks FC