Should we sack our manager?

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

The dreaded "vote of confidence".  For those mincing words, they all suck and are all horrible.  It's meant as a last ditch effort to get the manager to turn it around.  Koeman knows that.  Another loss now and I think he's gone.

Fuck sake, I don't read much of moshiri so I don't know what he's about. But from what I've read there, he's is true a defeatist. How can you expect to lose games. You may aswell settle for 8th place before a ball is kicked and keep ya money in ya back pocket.

That has really fucked up my day now.

[Hafnia]

27 minutes ago, yamar said:

Fuck sake, I don't read much of moshiri so I don't know what he's about. But from what I've read there, he's is true a defeatist. How can you expect to lose games. You may aswell settle for 8th place before a ball is kicked and keep ya money in ya back pocket.

That has really fucked up my day now.

The fact he's tried to excuse it has pissed me off.

I fancy a job at Everton.... top wages for doing half a job. 

[Elston Gunnn]

I guess In frustration I’ve become obsessed with the 2-DCM issue.  As London Blue said in a post hours ago, Gana just isn’t a creative player.  Apologies for here repeating my obsessive mantra: Gana is a disruptor, but neither a playmaker nor shotmaker.  Good heavens, his 2 blasts in the second half were awful.

My 2-DCM obsession derives principally from the fact that we need desperately to score goals.  Koeman needs to recognize this obvious fact, and set up with an additional attacking player.  This must mean abandoning the Schneiderlin-Gana pairing, and for most matches going to either a 4-4-2 or 4-1-3-2.  As Gana and Schneiderlin (and for that matter McCarthy and Besic) offer different strengths, perhaps Koeman should rotate the single DCM according to opponent and/or schedule.  Maybe there will be occasions when Koeman can, even should, employ 2 DCMs.  Such as if we (ever again) have a 2-goal lead.  Heck, given such a miracle, make it 3 DCMs for a few minutes.

But Gana-Schneiderlin, despite their respective strengths, do not add goals.  Schneiderlin is an organizer, Gana a disruptor.  Neither is an attacker.  Among our several problems, lack of goals is biggest, so Koeman must add an attacker..  We need goals.  A goal lifts the team, gives energy to players and fans.  I hope to see Lookman and Mirallas getting a chance after the international break.  Sandro, I guess, maybe.  Klaassen, honestly, not so much just yet.

Davies is probably the midfielder who combines defensive disruption with an attacking mindset.  Play Davies, Sigurdsson, and a winger (Mirallas, Vlasic, Lookman), all in front of a single DCM.  Start 2 of Rooney, DCL, and Sandro as strikers.  Niasse as sub.

 

[johnh]

36 minutes ago, yamar said:

Fuck sake, I don't read much of moshiri so I don't know what he's about. But from what I've read there, he's is true a defeatist. How can you expect to lose games. You may aswell settle for 8th place before a ball is kicked and keep ya money in ya back pocket.

That has really fucked up my day now.

I'm not sure that Moshiri was necessarily being defeatist.  We certainly expected a win against Burnley but not necessarily against, say, Chelsea. A lot of fans on this website predicted defeats against Chelsea, Man U etc.,  in the Prediction League.   Being realistic doesn't equate to defeatism.  I think that what Moshiri was trying to say was 'we expected to win against Burnley, whereas against the top teams we hoped to win'.  I'm  not sure, but is English  his first language?

[markjazzbassist]

17 minutes ago, johnh said:

I'm not sure that Moshiri was necessarily being defeatist.  We certainly expected a win against Burnley but not necessarily against, say, Chelsea. A lot of fans on this website predicted defeats against Chelsea, Man U etc.,  in the Prediction League.   Being realistic doesn't equate to defeatism.  I think that what Moshiri was trying to say was 'we expected to win against Burnley, whereas against the top teams we hoped to win'.  I'm  not sure, but is English  his first language?

that's a good take, and like i said in those statements the words mean little, its the fact he made the "vote of confidence" statement that says the most.  

[Matt]

19 minutes ago, johnh said:

I'm not sure that Moshiri was necessarily being defeatist.  We certainly expected a win against Burnley but not necessarily against, say, Chelsea. A lot of fans on this website predicted defeats against Chelsea, Man U etc.,  in the Prediction League.   Being realistic doesn't equate to defeatism.  I think that what Moshiri was trying to say was 'we expected to win against Burnley, whereas against the top teams we hoped to win'.  I'm  not sure, but is English  his first language?

I agree, John. But, we really should be expecting to win against Bournemouth and a midtable Cypriot team too (I know we drew, but it really was a loss). The fact this is the only "unexpected" loss tells me we expected nothing against the top teams to begin with - no wonder the players don't seem to know whats going on. Martinez would at least go at the big teams, rather than just roll over because it was "expected". 

Being realistic is not defeatism. But when performances and excuses have been as poor as they have them, defeatism is the reality.

[captainbeaker]

21 minutes ago, johnh said:

I'm not sure that Moshiri was necessarily being defeatist.  We certainly expected a win against Burnley but not necessarily against, say, Chelsea. A lot of fans on this website predicted defeats against Chelsea, Man U etc.,  in the Prediction League.   Being realistic doesn't equate to defeatism.  I think that what Moshiri was trying to say was 'we expected to win against Burnley, whereas against the top teams we hoped to win'.  I'm  not sure, but is English  his first language?

I agree with this, but surely he would have expected us to put up more a fight.

Both the recruitment and player selections/tactics need serious questions asked.

[johnh]

3 minutes ago, Matt said:

I agree, John. But, we really should be expecting to win against Bournemouth and a midtable Cypriot team too (I know we drew, but it really was a loss). The fact this is the only "unexpected" loss tells me we expected nothing against the top teams to begin with - no wonder the players don't seem to know whats going on. Martinez would at least go at the big teams, rather than just roll over because it was "expected". 

Being realistic is not defeatism. But when performances and excuses have been as poor as they have them, defeatism is the reality.

 

I am still not sure Matt.  You highlight the term 'unexpected' loss (which I think was intended to be taken in isolation, not applied to other games by inference) If he'd used the term 'expected' win, which effectively means the same thing, this element of the thread would probably have never happened.

[Matt]

Just now, johnh said:

 

I am still not sure Matt.  You highlight the term 'unexpected' loss (which I think was intended to be taken in isolation, not applied to other games by inference) If he'd used the term 'expected' win, which effectively means the same thing, this element of the thread would probably have never happened.

I agree, but he didn't say "expected win", John. "Today was the only unexpected loss" means that they assumed lose was a probability in all the previous games, which would include Stoke!

He's very specific in what he says, and considering how long he's been in the country, his education and his success, there's no way he got his words wrong. What it might show is that he knew we'd be in for a rough start because of all the changes they were making and an extra competition to prepare for, and that by this game he expected the team to have clicked and we'd be moving forward.  If that's the case, he's got a timeline in mind for how long Koeman gets to turn it around too and also show's he expects a lot of this staff. But it also shows a lot of naivety.

[Hafnia]

Win lose draw..... the concerning issue for me is that we look absolutely clueless in every single game no matter the opponents. 

It's so obvious that koeman doesnt have a clue what hes doing. He is literally throwing darts. 

[Bill]

In the last Ten games we have conceded the first goal Nine times. 

Like I said in another thread, at the moment we have the worst back four we have had in a long time and its beginning to affect Pickford.  Time for change.

[Cornish Steve]

History is being rewritten. Some of us complained about the lack of creativity, effort, and strategy after four games, and the response was that we're playing top teams and we've actually done quite well. Now the pendulum has swung and the new narrative is that we really expected to win. Let's at least be honest here: Moshiri is saying what many at this forum said not so long ago. What's changed for those following the team, I would say, has been the truly awful performances against Atalanta, Bournemouth, Limassol, and Burnley. My beef with Moshiri's comment is that he's giving Koeman a free pass for the first three of these.

Having said that, he's the typical shrewd businessman. Behind the scenes, I'd be very surprised if he's giving Koeman his full support. The latter was probably given an ultimatum a week ago and is now in dire straits. If Moshiri is the same guy I met in Russia years ago, he's quite ruthless: Everton will already be in contact with Ancelotti. Of course, nothing will be said until the deal is sealed.

[Hafnia]

I was told about a week ago that unsworth was getting the job.  I still doubt it but would very much welcome it. 

 

Ancellotti? Yeah why not. 

[Cornish Steve]

11 minutes ago, hafnia said:

I was told about a week ago that unsworth was getting the job.  I still doubt it but would very much welcome it. 

 

Ancellotti? Yeah why not. 

When you heard that comment, Ancelotti was not available.

[markjazzbassist]

those that want ancelotti obviously don't know much about him.  he is not a tactician, he is not into training.  he is a man manager, gets along well with everyone (ronaldo acted like he lost his father when they let him go) and puts out what he thinks is the best lineup and lets the players play.  

 

that's not what we need.  we need someone to drill the backline, come up with some proper tactics, and develop a style.  Tuchel could work, although he burns out after a few years at every place he goes and he's similar to the martinez/koeman style of all attack not much defense.  shouts for Rafa are farcical at best.  It's a bad time of year to look for a manager.  Unsworth sounds great on paper and is a blue and all that, but i worry the whole campaign could be a bit much for him, he could have the same fate as koeman.  also if he's manager for majority of the season you think he just goes back to the u23 nice and quietly if we hire someone else?  probably would leave to manage elsewhere since he would have the credentials then.

 

just some thoughts.

[Cornish Steve]

7 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

those that want ancelotti obviously don't know much about him.  he is not a tactician, he is not into training.  he is a man manager, gets along well with everyone (ronaldo acted like he lost his father when they let him go) and puts out what he thinks is the best lineup and lets the players play.  

 

that's not what we need.  we need someone to drill the backline, come up with some proper tactics, and develop a style.  Tuchel could work, although he burns out after a few years at every place he goes and he's similar to the martinez/koeman style of all attack not much defense.  shouts for Rafa are farcical at best.  It's a bad time of year to look for a manager.  Unsworth sounds great on paper and is a blue and all that, but i worry the whole campaign could be a bit much for him, he could have the same fate as koeman.  also if he's manager for majority of the season you think he just goes back to the u23 nice and quietly if we hire someone else?  probably would leave to manage elsewhere since he would have the credentials then.

 

just some thoughts.

I'm not voicing support for Ancelotti, Mark. I'm simply trying to think the way I would expect Moshiri to think. He came to Everton with a high-level vision and busted a gut to bring in Koeman. (That in itself is a lesson, BTW: don't bring in a manager who needs too much arm-twisting.) He will want to bring in a big name manager, and Ancelotti won the league. Personally, in the circumstances, I would prefer Unsworth because he knows the team, they know him, he has a proven track record with the U-23s, and he'd be hungry to succeed. But we're not the ones making the decision, so it's worth trying to understand the mind of the man who is.

[Shukes]

I think a man manager is exactly what we need. We have players that know how to play. They know how to set up.

what they don't have at the moment is motivation. This is what we are missing. 

Look at Barkley.

look at Mirralas.

[Quinn31]

On 9/28/2017 at 10:02, markjazzbassist said:

Ancelotti out at Bayern, prepare for the posts about getting him here to replace koeman.  for the record, i love ancelotti and would welcome him here, but i think there is no chance he comes here even if they do fire koeman.

Will happily bet anyone that Unsworth can't get us above where Koeman got us. Nice bloke, probably not a good enough manager.

[Haiku]

45 minutes ago, Shukes said:

I think a man manager is exactly what we need. We have players that know how to play. They know how to set up.

what they don't have at the moment is motivation. This is what we are missing. 

Look at Barkley.

look at Mirralas.

Ohh come on. If £80 000 per week can't motivate you enough, then what else can?

[Hafnia]

3 minutes ago, Quinn31 said:

Will happily bet anyone that Unsworth can't get us above where Koeman got us. Nice bloke, probably not a good enough manager.

By all accounts he takes no shit. Snoods etc banned. 

[Guest]

Ronald Koeman = Mike Walker with a Dutch accent.

[markjazzbassist]

38 minutes ago, Quinn31 said:

Will happily bet anyone that Unsworth can't get us above where Koeman got us. Nice bloke, probably not a good enough manager.

I worry the same.  If it was after the holidays and it was just to finish out the last 10 or so sure, but practically a whole campaign?  I'm not so sure

[Matt]

34 minutes ago, Haiku said:

Ohh come on. If £80 000 per week can't motivate you enough, then what else can?

Money isn't necessarily a good motivator, especially if you want to succeed as a person

[Romey 1878]

47 minutes ago, hafnia said:

By all accounts he takes no shit. Snoods etc banned. 

I didn’t think you’d like all that authoritarian shit. You certainly took issue with Koeman making the squad wait to eat until everyone is present. 

[Shukes]

1 hour ago, Haiku said:

Ohh come on. If £80 000 per week can't motivate you enough, then what else can?

They are doing all they need to earn that though aren't they.

thw problem is motivating them to be competitive again. 

Alex Feguson!

[nogs]

2 hours ago, Quinn31 said:

Will happily bet anyone that Unsworth can't get us above where Koeman got us. Nice bloke, probably not a good enough manager.

I'll take that. Unsporting has proved he can set out a team to win matches, despite having to change an entire team. I'd say on current evidence he's a better man manager and tactician than Koeman. He uses players to their strengths and gets them playing for him. Koeman is doing the exact opposite. 

[nogs]

3 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

those that want ancelotti obviously don't know much about him.  he is not a tactician, he is not into training.  he is a man manager, gets along well with everyone (ronaldo acted like he lost his father when they let him go) and puts out what he thinks is the best lineup and lets the players play.  

 

that's not what we need.  we need someone to drill the backline, come up with some proper tactics, and develop a style.  Tuchel could work, although he burns out after a few years at every place he goes and he's similar to the martinez/koeman style of all attack not much defense.  shouts for Rafa are farcical at best.  It's a bad time of year to look for a manager.  Unsworth sounds great on paper and is a blue and all that, but i worry the whole campaign could be a bit much for him, he could have the same fate as koeman.  also if he's manager for majority of the season you think he just goes back to the u23 nice and quietly if we hire someone else?  probably would leave to manage elsewhere since he would have the credentials then.

 

just some thoughts.

Yep totally agree, thought exactly the same. Problem is we need both, someone to pick the players off the floor and give them some tactical direction. My worry with Ancellotti would be that he apparently lost the Bayern dressing room precisely because, when the chips were down, they felt he wasn't doing enough tactically to improve them. 

[markjazzbassist]

13 minutes ago, nogs said:

Yep totally agree, thought exactly the same. Problem is we need both, someone to pick the players off the floor and give them some tactical direction. My worry with Ancellotti would be that he apparently lost the Bayern dressing room precisely because, when the chips were down, they felt he wasn't doing enough tactically to improve them. 

yep, plus i just think he wouldn't come here.  His CV is the biggest clubs in the world, i don't see him needed to "resurrect" his career, he's still a well known quantity and in demand.  Tuchel would be the more realistic between the 2 i think, just because he's not won the CL and isn't as big of a name.

[Cornish Steve]

11 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

yep, plus i just think he wouldn't come here.  His CV is the biggest clubs in the world, i don't see him needed to "resurrect" his career, he's still a well known quantity and in demand.  Tuchel would be the more realistic between the 2 i think, just because he's not won the CL and isn't as big of a name.

Everton is one of the biggest clubs in the world. Don't be deceived by league position.

[Guest]

Eddie Howe for me now. Two years ago was a no no but he's developed again Ada a manager an does miracles with mediocre players. His attention to detail is faultless also.

 

And he's a blue.