Goodbye To The Gravy Guzzler

[Bailey]

10 hours ago, Palfy said:

To be fair I don't care what he did or didn't do a Leicester, and if he was the main reason Leicester won the league and he except's the plaudits for that, then in the same way he has to except the  condemnation for were we find ourselves which he should be sacked for.

Spot on. 

Let's also be clear that it' not every signing that' been shit. We have brought in some great young talent, we got Gana for peanuts, and the striker which the board and manager have confirmed is all him looks tidy. 

The problem we have had is with the 'big' signings and the positions they have been signed to play in. Whoever sanctioned those, and didn't address the gaps in the squad is the one to blame, which I presume is Walsh but unless one of us has been in the meetings we just don' know.

[nogs]

22 minutes ago, Bailey said:

Spot on. 

Let's also be clear that it' not every signing that' been shit. We have brought in some great young talent, we got Gana for peanuts, and the striker which the board and manager have confirmed is all him looks tidy. 

The problem we have had is with the 'big' signings and the positions they have been signed to play in. Whoever sanctioned those, and didn't address the gaps in the squad is the one to blame, which I presume is Walsh but unless one of us has been in the meetings we just don' know.

If he'd just signed Gana, DCL, Lookman, Vlasic, Pickford and Sigurdsson, there'd be no issue. You could quibble over the amount paid for Sigurdsson, but so be it. Then of course add Tosun and Walcott who look like they will prove decent

It's Schneiderlin, Williams, Keane, Klaassen, Martina and Sandro that cause the alarm bells to sound, especially the close to 100m spent on the first four. When you compare that to shipping out Stones, Lukaku, Barkley, Barry and even Deulofeo, and making a real hash of CF and replacing an ageing backline, overall the recruitment on his watch has been very, very poor. 

[Romey 1878]

http://www.football365.com/news/big-sam-and-the-problem-of-being-universally-disliked

[Bailey]

33 minutes ago, nogs said:

If he'd just signed Gana, DCL, Lookman, Vlasic, Pickford and Sigurdsson, there'd be no issue. You could quibble over the amount paid for Sigurdsson, but so be it. Then of course add Tosun and Walcott who look like they will prove decent

It's Schneiderlin, Williams, Keane, Klaassen, Martina and Sandro that cause the alarm bells to sound, especially the close to 100m spent on the first four. When you compare that to shipping out Stones, Lukaku, Barkley, Barry and even Deulofeo, and making a real hash of CF and replacing an ageing backline, overall the recruitment on his watch has been very, very poor. 

Schneiderlin looked like a good buy early on so, Williams was always a solid stop gap but something has gone on with him over the summer, Keane is shite, Klaassen is a good player who doesn't seem suited by the league so that's not good, Sandro was a gamble and Martina was without doubt Koeman.

Like you say though it's the transition of the quality out v the quality in. I'd rather have less players but greater quality than more players of lesser quality.

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

Schneiderlin looked like a good buy early on so, Williams was always a solid stop gap but something has gone on with him over the summer, Keane is shite, Klaassen is a good player who doesn't seem suited by the league so that's not good, Sandro was a gamble and Martina was without doubt Koeman.

Like you say though it's the transition of the quality out v the quality in. I'd rather have less players but greater quality than more players of lesser quality.

So would I to many changes in a short space of time haven’t worked, for me the team left by Martinez wasn’t that bad it just needed tweaking here and there especially at the back, like you said Bailey more emphasis on quality than quantity was needed. 

[Paddock]

20 hours ago, Matt said:

And that naivety is what I’m criticising. For someone who supposedly knows the game well, he really screwed up.

I knew nothing about Walsh but never liked the idea of DoF, and I don’t remember being excited or liking Koeman. They were flavour of the month signings and it’s backfired, which shows poor judgement in my eyes. Like Haf said though, hopefully he’ll learn from these mistakes. 

It’s hardly poor judgement though is it- both came with a pedigree of some sort- who else of a higher reputation/calibre do you think we could have got?

He broke the bank to get rid of Martinez, he broke the bank to get Koeman and he broke the bank to get Walsh- he’s been let down massively by a lot of people- he’s never professed to know a lot about football, he’s said he’s just the wallet- Moshiri should not be critisised for any of this- he’s delivered everything he promised.

[Cornish Steve]

20 minutes ago, Paddock said:

It’s hardly poor judgement though is it- both came with a pedigree of some sort- who else of a higher reputation/calibre do you think we could have got?

He broke the bank to get rid of Martinez, he broke the bank to get Koeman and he broke the bank to get Walsh- he’s been let down massively by a lot of people- he’s never professed to know a lot about football, he’s said he’s just the wallet- Moshiri should not be critisised for any of this- he’s delivered everything he promised.

He's actually made some tough decisions, and he's transformed the team's financial books. If there's one big lesson I hope he's learned from the last two years, it's that the team should hire managers who'd do the job for free. Of course, in reality they would not, but they need that hunger, that desire, and that willingness to succeed here that money, to them, is secondary. The same, to some extent, is true of players. No more arm-twisting and splashing money around, please. Go with those who clearly and passionately want to be here. Such people would be willing to accept pay structures based on performance bonuses and release clauses based on non-performance.

[Paddock]

1 hour ago, Cornish Steve said:

He's actually made some tough decisions, and he's transformed the team's financial books. If there's one big lesson I hope he's learned from the last two years, it's that the team should hire managers who'd do the job for free. Of course, in reality they would not, but they need that hunger, that desire, and that willingness to succeed here that money, to them, is secondary. The same, to some extent, is true of players. No more arm-twisting and splashing money around, please. Go with those who clearly and passionately want to be here. Such people would be willing to accept pay structures based on performance bonuses and release clauses based on non-performance.

The problem with that is they aren’t winners.

[Matt]

1 hour ago, Paddock said:

It’s hardly poor judgement though is it- both came with a pedigree of some sort- who else of a higher reputation/calibre do you think we could have got?

He broke the bank to get rid of Martinez, he broke the bank to get Koeman and he broke the bank to get Walsh- he’s been let down massively by a lot of people- he’s never professed to know a lot about football, he’s said he’s just the wallet- Moshiri should not be critisised for any of this- he’s delivered everything he promised.

Martinez - Not sure if it was the correct judgement, although that is definitely in hindsight. Based on the previous 18 months we'd had under him, I understand why he was sacked but would've like RM to have a proper transfer window with real backing. However, that was never going to happen, it was very much a "I want to make my mark", as Koeman did with pretty much the entire squad. "Football Manager" mentality.

Koeman - poor judgement from the get-go, in my opinion, although I think I was in the minority even when he signed for us. Sure, a big name in the game as a player, but largely unproven and only really brought in to show "intent" (I hate how that word gets abused, much like ambition = spending money. Does it fuck), but he wasn't the right character. I know people undermine this "getting the club" thing, but it really is essential. Anyway, a perfect example of the "football manager" approach I meant. Sure, it's his money and, again, I'm not criticizing his financial backing, but it shows a fundamental lack of understanding.

Walsh - I knew nothing about him other than the media hailing his achievements at Leicester. I didn't like the DoF concept then, and I sure as shit don't know. I don't know if Moshiri went with it because it's fashionable (i.e. all the big, rich clubs have them) or he genuinely thought we'd do a Leicester with these "gems" Walsh was supposed to unearth. Whilst either of those scenarios clearly does show actual ambition, it's proven (again, in hindsight) to be another personnel mistake. 

As for the "just the wallet, doesn't know a lot about the game", maybe it was just Kenwright saying he understood the game? But I was certain that Moshiri had made the claim he understood it. 

Anyway, this isn'ttt a character assassination  job by any means. I'm just pointing out the 1 failing that he's made, and at the end of the day, owners are accountable. Maybe not always responsible (I think that's still unclear for me here), but certainly accountable for the poor performances, simply because he is the one who put them in charge.

[Hafnia]

25 minutes ago, Matt said:

Martinez - Not sure if it was the correct judgement, although that is definitely in hindsight. Based on the previous 18 months we'd had under him, I understand why he was sacked but would've like RM to have a proper transfer window with real backing. However, that was never going to happen, it was very much a "I want to make my mark", as Koeman did with pretty much the entire squad. "Football Manager" mentality.

Koeman - poor judgement from the get-go, in my opinion, although I think I was in the minority even when he signed for us. Sure, a big name in the game as a player, but largely unproven and only really brought in to show "intent" (I hate how that word gets abused, much like ambition = spending money. Does it fuck), but he wasn't the right character. I know people undermine this "getting the club" thing, but it really is essential. Anyway, a perfect example of the "football manager" approach I meant. Sure, it's his money and, again, I'm not criticizing his financial backing, but it shows a fundamental lack of understanding.

Walsh - I knew nothing about him other than the media hailing his achievements at Leicester. I didn't like the DoF concept then, and I sure as shit don't know. I don't know if Moshiri went with it because it's fashionable (i.e. all the big, rich clubs have them) or he genuinely thought we'd do a Leicester with these "gems" Walsh was supposed to unearth. Whilst either of those scenarios clearly does show actual ambition, it's proven (again, in hindsight) to be another personnel mistake. 

As for the "just the wallet, doesn't know a lot about the game", maybe it was just Kenwright saying he understood the game? But I was certain that Moshiri had made the claim he understood it. 

Anyway, this isn'tttt a character assassination  job by any means. I'm just pointing out the 1 failing that he's made, and at the end of the day, owners are accountable. Maybe not always responsible (I think that's still unclear for me here), but certainly accountable for the poor performances, simply because he is the one who put them in charge.

Matt. In Martinez first full season he bought in barry, McCarthy, lukaku, deulofeu, all first team players.  They transformed us positively..... it's not about the amount of change it's about getting the change done right. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

http://www.football365.com/news/big-sam-and-the-problem-of-being-universally-disliked

I don’t think he is universally disliked , I’m sure there are chippy or kebab shop owners on County Road who love him

[Hafnia]

He reminds me of Phil the power Taylor. Another unlikable tit

[Matt]

7 minutes ago, hafnia said:

Matt. In Martinez first full season he bought in barry, McCarthy, lukaku, deulofeu, all first team players.  They transformed us positively..... it's not about the amount of change it's about getting the change done right. 

Yeah, the change wasn’t massive and quality was an upgrade on what we had. That was recruitment done right. What’s your point?

[Cornish Steve]

2 hours ago, hafnia said:

Matt. In Martinez first full season he bought in barry, McCarthy, lukaku, deulofeu, all first team players.  They transformed us positively..... it's not about the amount of change it's about getting the change done right. 

Absolutely! He also brought in Lukaku. Love him or hate him, he transformed the team, and it was a coup.

[nyblue23]

3 hours ago, hafnia said:

Matt. In Martinez first full season he bought in barry, McCarthy, lukaku, deulofeu, all first team players.  They transformed us positively..... it's not about the amount of change it's about getting the change done right. 

Haf just said something positive about Lukaku! Holy shit!

[MikeO]

17 minutes ago, nyblue23 said:

Haf just said something positive about Lukaku! Holy shit!

Just took this photo...

[nogs]

3 hours ago, hafnia said:

He reminds me of Phil the power Taylor. Another unlikable tit

At least Taylor was a winner. 

[markjazzbassist]

Martinez transfers put walsh to absolute shame.  he wipes the floor with him.  not to mention he was MANAGING as well.  this DOF thing has to go.  just more opportunity for stuff to go sideways.

[Cornish Steve]

Guess who apparently doesn't give a toss about our youngsters. Given how much emphasis we previously put on youth, this is very very sad to see.

https://royalbluemersey.sbnation.com/2018/3/7/17087554/everton-youth-on-loan-sam-allardyce-no-clue-callum-connolly-ignored-lookman-sandro-vlasic-comments

[nogs]

11 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

Guess who apparently doesn't give a toss about our youngsters. Given how much emphasis we previously put on youth, this is very very sad to see.

https://royalbluemersey.sbnation.com/2018/3/7/17087554/everton-youth-on-loan-sam-allardyce-no-clue-callum-connolly-ignored-lookman-sandro-vlasic-comments

He talks some absolute shite doesn't he. Just absolute rambling nonsense. Embarrassing. 

[Hafnia]

6 hours ago, Matt said:

Yeah, the change wasn’t massive and quality was an upgrade on what we had. That was recruitment done right. What’s your point?

That's one third of a first 11.....  how many of our first 11 have changed since last year? Keane, Rooney, Gylfi.... not counting the keeper. 

Look at Liverpool.... they have brought in Robertson, salah, ox, van dyk.... hardly upset the apple cart. 

[Bailey]

2 hours ago, hafnia said:

That's one third of a first 11.....  how many of our first 11 have changed since last year? Keane, Rooney, Gylfi.... not counting the keeper. 

Look at Liverpool.... they have brought in Robertson, salah, ox, van dyk.... hardly upset the apple cart. 

At the start of the season we had Keane, Siggy, Klaassen, Pickford, Martna, Rooney and to a lesser extent Sandro starting most games. We also lost two of our most influential players from last season plus had a long term injury to Coleman.

Liverpool had Salah and Ox. Robertson was behind Moreno and Van Diyk was bought in January. Liverpool only list Coutinho in January.

That's a lot of change combined with a lot of players wrong for the system we use. Whereas Liverpool upgraded on players perfect for how they play. 

It's a mixture of both. We bought a lot of rubbish and lost a lot of output. I imagine Rom, Ross and Coleman probably have more goals and assists last year that the rest of the team put together this season!

[Hafnia]

11 hours ago, Bailey said:

At the start of the season we had Keane, Siggy, Klaassen, Pickford, Martna, Rooney and to a lesser extent Sandro starting most games. We also lost two of our most influential players from last season plus had a long term injury to Coleman.

Liverpool had Salah and Ox. Robertson was behind Moreno and Van Diyk was bought in January. Liverpool only list Coutinho in January.

That's a lot of change combined with a lot of players wrong for the system we use. Whereas Liverpool upgraded on players perfect for how they play. 

It's a mixture of both. We bought a lot of rubbish and lost a lot of output. I imagine Rom, Ross and Coleman probably have more goals and assists last year that the rest of the team put together this season!

Man city signed 6 players...... 3 new full backs. A centre half a goalkeeper, a midfielder..... the majority of which played straight away.  Blazed away straight from the get go.

It' nothing to do with the numbers - it's all to do with the quality and necessity.

Our problem is we signed players for the wrong positions. We never replaced the role Barry did... We bought 3 number 10's and only now are we seeing Rooney doing the Barry role.  we never replaced Baines or Coleman we have a substandard full back in cuco and a kid in Kenny. 

We never replaced jags or Williams who are both finished which meant Keane is our most senior centre half who was available. 

Sandro was the right signing for a squad but not as a starter, DCL and Niasse were therefore the only striker options once we realised Rooney isn'tt a number 9 anymore.

The whole "you can't just get a load of players in" is a load of bollocks.  I would bet a million quid that if I bought in 2 players each from Bayern, real, Barca, juve, atletico, psg and had a pre season gelling then they would be top notch. 

 

 

 

[Hafnia]

But let's blame moshiri.... let's go back to the days where we need to listen to moyes tell he he is gonna go and see what loans he can get in.... let's all grumble about our £0 net spend and watch as Liverpool take a chance on players and managers whilst we bask in upper mid-table security under Davie moyes.

It was the equivalent of going to the same holiday destination and hotel year in year out.  You wouldn't dread going.... cos you knew what you were gonna get but you knew that at the airport you would see people in the gate for a flight to Barbados and think "jammy buggers".

I will take what we are getting with moshiri as he has the money to eradicate mistakes...  the biggest mistakes made under kenwright was the inability to get anything done on a growth perspective. Failed stadiums, extortionate loans, profit skimming Phillip Green, bargain basement players.

Every single top club has gone through what we are experiencing.  They too get rid of their mistakes. 

 

[Romey 1878]

http://www.skysports.com/share/11280788 

[Matt]

14 hours ago, hafnia said:

That's one third of a first 11.....  how many of our first 11 have changed since last year? Keane, Rooney, Gylfi.... not counting the keeper. 

Look at Liverpool.... they have brought in Robertson, salah, ox, van dyk.... hardly upset the apple cart. 

Since Walsh et al came in (so 3 transfer windows, with both Januarys bringing in minimal change) , we've signed Bolasie, Sandro, Glyfi, Klaassen, Rooney, Tosun, Keane, Pickford, Martina, Williams, DCL, Walcott, Vlasic, Mangala, Lookman (not including Onyekuru who went straight back out on loan) - not sure if I've missed someone. That's a lot of change. I'm also thinking bigger than the starting 11, because a squad is 25 lads who work and play together. Even losing Coleman and Baines not being part of training will have made an impact. Just thinking, with those 2 being out injured, there's only really an aging Jags left over from the regular squad from 18 months ago (not including Mori). 

Then there's the long serving squad players, veterans, etc. the core of the squad who were part of the make up (Ossie, Hibbert, Barry, Mirrallas (although, riddance), Kone, Lukaku, Rom etc.), who,  3 players aside,  may not have made an impact on the pitch, but were part of the fabric. If you worked in a team of 12 at work, and 10 other people you worked with plus the manager (who is an arrogant twat) came in, you don't think your performance and the teams performance would suffer massively? 

You're again comparing us to elite (because that's where we should be), but we're not there. Yet. Like you said somewhere else, and I think I've made the same comment elsewhere too, even City took time and lots of misspent money to get where they are now. 

There was fuck all change management plan, and that's what crippled us and why I keep banging on about it. Only one person is accountable for that, and it's one of only 2 genuine criticisms I've had of Moshiri (media shenanigans aside, since he's said he's addressed that). Again, that's not having a go at him, it's recognizing what's happened.

46 minutes ago, hafnia said:

Man city signed 6 players...... 3 new full backs. A centre half a goalkeeper, a midfielder..... the majority of which played straight away.  Blazed away straight from the get go.

It' nothing to do with the numbers - it's all to do with the quality and necessity.

Our problem is we signed players for the wrong positions. We never replaced the role Barry did... We bought 3 number 10's and only now are we seeing Rooney doing the Barry role.  we never replaced Baines or Coleman we have a substandard full back in cuco and a kid in Kenny. 

We never replaced jags or Williams who are both finished which meant Keane is our most senior centre half who was available. 

Sandro was the right signing for a squad but not as a starter, DCL and Niasse were therefore the only striker options once we realised Rooney isn'ttt a number 9 anymore.

The whole "you can't just get a load of players in" is a load of bollocks.  I would bet a million quid that if I bought in 2 players each from Bayern, real, Barca, juve, atletico, psg and had a pre season gelling then they would be top notch. 

For that first line in bold:

So if you only bring in 1 quality player, it makes everything right? That's a load of bollocks. The whole point is getting a balance between the big influx and quality. To do big influx, you need exceptional, well-chosen, quality. My point is that we're not in the position, nor have we been for far too long, to be attractive enough to bring in star players. We had to start with small steps, instead we've tried to sprint alongside Usain Bolt before we've learnt to jog. If we'd been able to bring in 10 players along the quality of Sané, Morata, "insert big name superstar, proven talent name here", then I'd agree that my argument of too much change is a load of bollocks. But that's that what happened and was never going to be the case.

Completely agree with the rest of the bold except Sandro.

27 minutes ago, hafnia said:

But let's blame moshiri.... let's go back to the days where we need to listen to moyes tell he he is gonna go and see what loans he can get in.... let's all grumble about our £0 net spend and watch as Liverpool take a chance on players and managers whilst we bask in upper mid-table security under Davie moyes.

It was the equivalent of going to the same holiday destination and hotel year in year out.  You wouldn't dread going.... cos you knew what you were gonna get but you knew that at the airport you would see people in the gate for a flight to Barbados and think "jammy buggers".

I will take what we are getting with moshiri as he has the money to eradicate mistakes...  the biggest mistakes made under kenwright was the inability to get anything done on a growth perspective. Failed stadiums, extortionate loans, profit skimming Phillip Green, bargain basement players.

Every single top club has gone through what we are experiencing.  They too get rid of their mistakes. 

You did it all the time with Kenwright, so what's changed apart from money? I'll say for the umpteenth time, I shan't and can't criticize Moshiri for the financial aspect, and he's certainly got the ambition. However, much like your criticism of Kenwright; he's in charge and the buck stops with him for hiring and trusting the wrong people. Hopefully he will learn quickly, because we are capable of great things under him.

 

[Matt]

25 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

http://www.skysports.com/share/11280788 

Fuck the fuckety fuck fuck off

[Cornish Steve]

27 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

http://www.skysports.com/share/11280788 

"the fantastic position we put ourselves in the early stages of me walking through the door"

Mr. Ego strikes again. I don't recall it as being "fantastic" at all.

[nogs]

1 hour ago, hafnia said:

But let's blame moshiri.... let's go back to the days where we need to listen to moyes tell he he is gonna go and see what loans he can get in.... let's all grumble about our £0 net spend and watch as Liverpool take a chance on players and managers whilst we bask in upper mid-table security under Davie moyes.

It was the equivalent of going to the same holiday destination and hotel year in year out.  You wouldn't dread going.... cos you knew what you were gonna get but you knew that at the airport you would see people in the gate for a flight to Barbados and think "jammy buggers".

I will take what we are getting with moshiri as he has the money to eradicate mistakes...  the biggest mistakes made under kenwright was the inability to get anything done on a growth perspective. Failed stadiums, extortionate loans, profit skimming Phillip Green, bargain basement players.

Every single top club has gone through what we are experiencing.  They too get rid of their mistakes. 

 

We'll see if you're right if he sacks Allardyce in the summer. If he doesn't, I genuinely fear for our future. We will see a very promising generation of young talent wasted, and we won't sign top players because no one on their right mind would want to play under Allardyce. We will see more of the same as this season and probably be battling relegation this time in 12 months. 

You can't exonerate people at the top for poor decision making with the excuse 'oh, they expected it to all go better.' of course they did, no one plans to fuck up, but that's what distinguishes good decision making from bad decision making. 

Moshiri has a massive decision to make on Allardyce, let's see what he does. 

[Hafnia]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

Since Walsh et al came in (so 3 transfer windows, with both Januarys bringing in minimal change) , we've signed Bolasie, Sandro, Glyfi, Klaassen, Rooney, Tosun, Keane, Pickford, Martina, Williams, DCL, Walcott, Vlasic, Mangala, Lookman (not including Onyekuru who went straight back out on loan) - not sure if I've missed someone. That's a lot of change. I'm also thinking bigger than the starting 11, because a squad is 25 lads who work and play together. Even losing Coleman and Baines not being part of training will have made an impact. Just thinking, with those 2 being out injured, there's only really an aging Jags left over from the regular squad from 18 months ago (not including Mori). 

Then there's the long serving squad players, veterans, etc. the core of the squad who were part of the make up (Ossie, Hibbert, Barry, Mirrallas (although, riddance), Kone, Lukaku, Rom etc.), who,  3 players aside,  may not have made an impact on the pitch, but were part of the fabric. If you worked in a team of 12 at work, and 10 other people you worked with plus the manager (who is an arrogant twat) came in, you don't think your performance and the teams performance would suffer massively? 

You're again comparing us to elite (because that's where we should be), but we're not there. Yet. Like you said somewhere else, and I think I've made the same comment elsewhere too, even City took time and lots of misspent money to get where they are now. 

There was fuck all change management plan, and that's what crippled us and why I keep banging on about it. Only one person is accountable for that, and it's one of only 2 genuine criticisms I've had of Moshiri (media shenanigans aside, since he's said he's addressed that). Again, that's not having a go at him, it's recognizing what's happened.

For that first line in bold:

So if you only bring in 1 quality player, it makes everything right? That's a load of bollocks. The whole point is getting a balance between the big influx and quality. To do big influx, you need exceptional, well-chosen, quality. My point is that we're not in the position, nor have we been for far too long, to be attractive enough to bring in star players. We had to start with small steps, instead we've tried to sprint alongside Usain Bolt before we've learnt to jog. If we'd been able to bring in 10 players along the quality of Sané, Morata, "insert big name superstar, proven talent name here", then I'd agree that my argument of too much change is a load of bollocks. But that's that what happened and was never going to be the case.

Completely agree with the rest of the bold except Sandro.

You did it all the time with Kenwright, so what's changed apart from money? I'll say for the umpteenth time, I shan't and can't criticize Moshiri for the financial aspect, and he's certainly got the ambition. However, much like your criticism of Kenwright; he's in charge and the buck stops with him for hiring and trusting the wrong people. Hopefully he will learn quickly, because we are capable of great things under him.

 

 

That's not a ot of change ... it's a load of players not good enough. Williams Keane bolassie Martina etc. 

Kenwright told lies. That pissed me off.

Kenwright didn't have the money to need to make decisions.... he made the decision to hire moyes and stuck with that for 11 years whilst tv money corrected the issues he lumped us with.

Moshiri will get criticism when required but until the day comes when he can't take corrective action for his mistakes then I will take it all as expensive learning.