Abdoulaye Doucouré

[markjazzbassist]

3 hours ago, StevO said:

When has he turned us down?

we tried to get him multiple times with marco and he said he wanted to stay.

[StevO]

1 minute ago, markjazzbassist said:

we tried to get him multiple times with marco and he said he wanted to stay.

Did he say that though? Or did his club reject our bids and he didn’t want to force the move?

[markjazzbassist]

4 minutes ago, StevO said:

Did he say that though? Or did his club reject our bids and he didn’t want to force the move?

yeah go to the first page of this thread.  he said he wouldn't leave watford for a team that wasn't as good.  now all of a sudden we are good enough, no thanks.  we don't need another mercenary.

[Palfy]

3 hours ago, StevO said:

We have a director of football. So would make sense if he wanted him then and still wants him now. 

I don’t follow that, wasn’t it Silva who wanted to bring him here at the same time as Richarlison, like Richarlison he was never one of Brands picks. 
I also struggle with the idea a manager would say I want a MF to a DoF go find me one, managers should know the players they want and if they don’t they shouldn’t be managing. 

[Aidan]

23 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

we tried to get him multiple times with marco and he said he wanted to stay.

From what I rememeber there has been articles over the past couple of years with him saying he wants to leave Watford. I'd imagine Watford were playing hard ball after the Richarlison deal - but maybe he was holding out for a better club. I don't see that as a mercenary, most players do that.

[StevO]

57 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I don’t follow that, wasn’t it Silva who wanted to bring him here at the same time as Richarlison, like Richarlison he was never one of Brands picks. 
I also struggle with the idea a manager would say I want a MF to a DoF go find me one, managers should know the players they want and if they don’t they shouldn’t be managing. 

That is how it works though. So the manager can concentrate on the players he has at his disposal and doesn’t have to run the whole scouting department. He would then only have to research the suggested players, not do everything himself. The days of managers running football clubs from top to bottom are over. 
Onviously managers will still make suggestions on players they already want and know, such as Richarlison or Carlo with Allan. 
It also gives the club continuity when managers leave. 
 

Im not suggesting this is what the club should do. I’m just posting what I know is already in place in many many clubs who operate a director of football and manager combo, and both Marcel and Carlo will be used to this set up. 

[StevO]

56 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

yeah go to the first page of this thread.  he said he wouldn't leave watford for a team that wasn't as good.  now all of a sudden we are good enough, no thanks.  we don't need another mercenary.

If you don’t want to see the club sign mercenaries I’m surprised you’ve stuck with watching football for so long Mark. Players don’t sign for anyone other than the highest payer very often. I’d be surprised if less than half of any starting eleven weren’t there for the money. 

[markjazzbassist]

1 hour ago, StevO said:

If you don’t want to see the club sign mercenaries I’m surprised you’ve stuck with watching football for so long Mark. Players don’t sign for anyone other than the highest payer very often. I’d be surprised if less than half of any starting eleven weren’t there for the money. 

allan is not getting playing time, he wants to move to start each week.  other players move for european football, or because they want a chance to win a trophy.  or maybe a new league, new challenge, new country to live in.  this guy said he wasn't interested in us, gets relegated and now all of a sudden he's interested.  there aren't many players like that ste that we are interested in.  unless we are back in for giroud and i just don't know it.

[Palfy]

7 hours ago, StevO said:

That is how it works though. So the manager can concentrate on the players he has at his disposal and doesn’t have to run the whole scouting department. He would then only have to research the suggested players, not do everything himself. The days of managers running football clubs from top to bottom are over. 
Onviously managers will still make suggestions on players they already want and know, such as Richarlison or Carlo with Allan. 
It also gives the club continuity when managers leave. 
 

Im not suggesting this is what the club should do. I’m just posting what I know is already in place in many many clubs who operate a director of football and manager combo, and both Marcel and Carlo will be used to this set up. 

I would have thought the manager says to the DoF this is who I want go get them, if you have any problems let me know and I will try to intervene, not the DoF saying this is who I’ve got you, and of course he can make suggestions but no first team player should come to any club on the say so of the DoF, and yes he can bring young prospects in to advance through the ranks, and the manager would have no concerns with that because they wouldn’t effect his first team squad, but as for the DoF deciding who’s brought into the first team squad I’m very very sceptical that that happens any where. 

[Shukes]

A few managers have explained how the DOF works. The managers are there to manage the team, not the club.

The manager recognises weak areas where he needs to strengthen, and the DOF goes and looks for players that fit what the manager is looking for. They come back with a list of players to discuss worth the manager. Between them, they decide on the best targets.

I think the word manager is misleading for a football team. They don’t manage the club, they just manage the team.

[Romey 1878]

43 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I would have thought the manager says to the DoF this is who I want go get them, if you have any problems let me know and I will try to intervene, not the DoF saying this is who I’ve got you, and of course he can make suggestions but no first team player should come to any club on the say so of the DoF, and yes he can bring young prospects in to advance through the ranks, and the manager would have no concerns with that because they wouldn’t effect his first team squad, but as for the DoF deciding who’s brought into the first team squad I’m very very sceptical that that happens any where. 

"This is who I've got you" isn't what Steve said though, Palf.

28 minutes ago, Shukes said:

A few managers have explained how the DOF works. The managers are there to manage the team, not the club.

The manager recognises weak areas where he needs to strengthen, and the DOF goes and looks for players that fit what the manager is looking for. They come back with a list of players to discuss worth the manager. Between them, they decide on the best targets.

I think the word manager is misleading for a football team. They don’t manage the club, they just manage the team.

This is what Steve was saying. The manager says I want a midfielder/defender/striker/whatever with these attributes. the DoF then compiles a list of players with these attributes and they go through it together to decide which of those players would be the most suitable.

It's a joint decision for the most part but the manager probably has slightly more power in the decision.

[Makis]

Manager is almost an archaic term these days. In Continental Europe the term they use is coach or trainer rather than manager as there traditionally manager did not sign the players.

[StevO]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

I would have thought the manager says to the DoF this is who I want go get them, if you have any problems let me know and I will try to intervene, not the DoF saying this is who I’ve got you, and of course he can make suggestions but no first team player should come to any club on the say so of the DoF, and yes he can bring young prospects in to advance through the ranks, and the manager would have no concerns with that because they wouldn’t effect his first team squad, but as for the DoF deciding who’s brought into the first team squad I’m very very sceptical that that happens any where. 

A player wouldn’t be brought in unless the manager also agrees with the director of football. Marcel has said that himself. 

[StevO]

12 minutes ago, Makis said:

Manager is almost an archaic term these days. In Continental Europe the term they use is coach or trainer rather than manager as there traditionally manager did not sign the players.

I agree. Manager is too much of a blanket term. Head coach is much more appropriate I think. 
In basketball & NFL it seems to me their equivalent of a director of football they call a general manager, and the guy who looks after the players is the coach. It makes more sense to me that way. 
 

In my line of work a lot of companies have replaced the title “manager” with “leader”. Makes it a bit confusing during recruitment though. 

[StevO]

6 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

allan is not getting playing time, he wants to move to start each week.  other players move for european football, or because they want a chance to win a trophy.  or maybe a new league, new challenge, new country to live in.  this guy said he wasn't interested in us, gets relegated and now all of a sudden he's interested.  there aren't many players like that ste that we are interested in.  unless we are back in for giroud and i just don't know it.

I agree Allan would be happy to leave as he’s not playing, but you don’t think if someone offers him more money he wouldn’t go there instead?

You think all those players that signed for City and Chelsea when their money came in wasn’t because they earned crazy money? 
It’s all money. you think we have any other way to attract footballer other than big fat wages? We really don’t.

Ever stayed in a job and later thought it was a bad call? Why should a footballer not be able to change his mind?

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Shukes said:

A few managers have explained how the DOF works. The managers are there to manage the team, not the club.

The manager recognises weak areas where he needs to strengthen, and the DOF goes and looks for players that fit what the manager is looking for. They come back with a list of players to discuss worth the manager. Between them, they decide on the best targets.

I think the word manager is misleading for a football team. They don’t manage the club, they just manage the team.

Yes the manager does manager the team, and the first team players are the team and he is responsible for how they play and those bought under his tenure, the DoF is not responsible for the management of the club either. 

[Makis]

1 hour ago, StevO said:

I agree. Manager is too much of a blanket term. Head coach is much more appropriate I think. 
In basketball & NFL it seems to me their equivalent of a director of football they call a general manager, and the guy who looks after the players is the coach. It makes more sense to me that way.

I follow NHL and they have the exact same system there as well.

In fact the way managers work in English football is rare in any sports.

[StevO]

12 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Yes the manager does manager the team, and the first team players are the team and he is responsible for how they play and those bought under his tenure, the DoF is not responsible for the management of the club either. 

You might not like how it works mate, but that is how it works. 

[Matt]

18 hours ago, Bailey said:

I just find this odd. He was a player we wanted last year with a different manager and now he is apparently a target of Ancelotti’s and ahead of a player he has worked with before? 

I'd guess its BS. 

 

That logic doesn’t makes sense though, we’ve had Brands here during that time 

[Shukes]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

Yes the manager does manager the team, and the first team players are the team and he is responsible for how they play and those bought under his tenure, the DoF is not responsible for the management of the club either. 

I just meant that the manager doesn’t have sole responsibility of what players come in. 
managers change much to often for them to choose all the players. They have to be able to work with the team they are given.

They ask for more players, or players of a certain type.... and the money men decide.

I don’t make these decisions mate.

[markjazzbassist]

2 hours ago, Makis said:

Manager is almost an archaic term these days. In Continental Europe the term they use is coach or trainer rather than manager as there traditionally manager did not sign the players.

Yeah coach and GM make more sense.  There are some outliers.  Bill belichek of the New England patriots is both coach and GM (or manager in premier league sense).  But there are very few in US sports that do both.

2 hours ago, StevO said:

I agree Allan would be happy to leave as he’s not playing, but you don’t think if someone offers him more money he wouldn’t go there instead?

You think all those players that signed for City and Chelsea when their money came in wasn’t because they earned crazy money? 
It’s all money. you think we have any other way to attract footballer other than big fat wages? We really don’t.

Ever stayed in a job and later thought it was a bad call? Why should a footballer not be able to change his mind?

I don’t think he would, I think then it comes down to the manager and seeing as one we have that rates him and they along well that would be the pull.  When you are making millions upon millions a year, 100k difference is nothing to you.  

[Aidan]

Probably made up but seems to think he knows someone who knows someone... £25m to £40m with addons. 

[Romey 1878]

1 hour ago, Aidan said:

Probably made up but seems to think he knows someone who knows someone... £25m to £40m with addons. 

£15m worth of add-ons seems a lot and a bit odd.

[Bailey]

18 hours ago, StevO said:

From how I understand the director of football situation; manager says “I need a midfielder”, director of football comes back with a bunch of options and they agree on targets. 
If Brands has brought Doucoure to the table and Carlo likes what he sees, they go for it. 
 

I agree that it’ll be interesting to see how this all unfolds. 

I agree but the bit that makes me unsure, and this is very likely my own error, is the assumption that Silva was the one that wanted Doucoure. Maybe he was always on Brands radar however as soon as the Silva rumours started, Doucoure was linked. 

It just seems very coincidental to me. 

8 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

"This is who I've got you" isn't what Steve said though, Palf.

This is what Steve was saying. The manager says I want a midfielder/defender/striker/whatever with these attributes. the DoF then compiles a list of players with these attributes and they go through it together to decide which of those players would be the most suitable.

It's a joint decision for the most part but the manager probably has slightly more power in the decision.

Should the manager have as much power if that is the case? You have scouts, a DoF who will have seen the player and done all the reports. The manager probably won't have looked at the player that closely, more so if he isnt based in the same country. Furthemore, the manager if allowed to, might have picked other players had he doen the research.

With that in mind, the manager might think he has the power but if all the options are from the DoF then the power is with him and the manager only has some power over the shortlist. 

This is why its important that the DoF picks the manager because the DoF controls the vision of the club and the manager has to fit in with that vision otherwise it creates conflicts and scapegoats.

 

@Matt I get that but see my first response to StevO above. (Sorry post you made accidently deleted)

[Palfy]

2 minutes ago, Bailey said:

I agree but the bit that makes me unsure, and this is very likely my own error, is the assumption that Silva was the one that wanted Doucoure. Maybe he was always on Brands radar however as soon as the Silva rumours started, Doucoure was linked. 

It just seems very coincidental to me. 

Should the manager have as much power if that is the case? You have scouts, a DoF who will have seen the player and done all the reports. The manager probably won't have looked at the player that closely, more so if he isnt based in the same country. Furthemore, the manager if allowed to, might have picked other players had he doen the research.

With that in mind, the manager might think he has the power but if all the options are from the DoF then the power is with him and the manager only has some power over the shortlist. 

This is why its important that the DoF picks the manager because the DoF controls the vision of the club and the manager has to fit in with that vision otherwise it creates conflicts and scapegoats.

 

@Matt I get that but see my first response to StevO above. (Sorry post you made accidently deleted)

I’ve searched various sites to find out what role a DoF has in a club, may I suggest most of you should do the same, it may make you see things differently, there are many sites with many people giving their opinions and views and who are in the game.  

[StevO]

40 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I’ve searched various sites to find out what role a DoF has in a club, may I suggest most of you should do the same, it may make you see things differently, there are many sites with many people giving their opinions and views and who are in the game.  

Nah, I’m fine mate.

[Shukes]

I am going with what the managers and DOFs say themselves.

I think we should all just agree to agree, that Palfy is wrong here! Seems the most logic course!

[barryj]

4 hours ago, Shukes said:

I am going with what the managers and DOFs say themselves.

I think we should all just agree to agree, that Palfy is wrong here! Seems the most logic course!

I thought that was the default position on here anyway

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/everton-transfer-news-docoure-keane-18796030

 

[Palfy]

21 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/everton-transfer-news-docoure-keane-18796030

 

That’s reassuring to know if true that he did and possibly still does want to come here, for me he could offer us a lot I see him as a possible Yaya Toure type of player, or have I got my rose tinted classes on. 

[StevO]

I like that the Echo felt the need to clarify that Koeman doesn’t want Keane at Barcelona. Like we couldn’t work that out for ourselves.

[Romey 1878]

1 hour ago, StevO said:

I like that the Echo felt the need to clarify that Koeman doesn’t want Keane at Barcelona. Like we couldn’t work that out for ourselves.

They're just relieved to be publishing something that's correct.

[barryj]

1 hour ago, Romey 1878 said:

They're just relieved to be publishing something that's correct.

Don’t say that I was hoping we’d get 80 million from Barca for him. They did mention him in the same sentence as Pique!

[Aidan]

HITC reporting that our opening offer was around £18m, but Watford want £25m.

[Btay]

30 minutes ago, Aidan said:

HITC reporting that our opening offer was around £18m, but Watford want £25m.

Here where it gets hard. Pay the £7m (Apparently) and get him in working with the squad or wait it out to save a few mil. Ideally I’d want Allan, Gomes and Doucoure working together ASAP.

Gbabim to come into the fold as well - will be like signing 3 new CM’s and we could really have physical presence in the centre of the park.

Cant see where Delph/Davies get minutes here. Maybe Delph to cover as LB this season?

[Aidan]

1 hour ago, Btay said:

Here where it gets hard. Pay the £7m (Apparently) and get him in working with the squad or wait it out to save a few mil. Ideally I’d want Allan, Gomes and Doucoure working together ASAP.

Gbabim to come into the fold as well - will be like signing 3 new CM’s and we could really have physical presence in the centre of the park.

Cant see where Delph/Davies get minutes here. Maybe Delph to cover as LB this season?

We seem to draw it out until last minute year in year out, but a lot of that might be also due to our targets waiting to see if they'll get a bigger club come in for them.

If we are going for the midfield 3, then Davies and Delph will get game time. Delph coving LB wouldn't be the worse thing in the world for a season - as long as Digne doesn't get a long term injury.

More importantly, minus Gabriel the lack of links to CB is worrying, its a priority IMO - Keane just isn't good enough and Holgate is still developing.

[Btay]

3 hours ago, Aidan said:

We seem to draw it out until last minute year in year out, but a lot of that might be also due to our targets waiting to see if they'll get a bigger club come in for them.

If we are going for the midfield 3, then Davies and Delph will get game time. Delph coving LB wouldn't be the worse thing in the world for a season - as long as Digne doesn't get a long term injury.

More importantly, minus Gabriel the lack of links to CB is worrying, its a priority IMO - Keane just isn't good enough and Holgate is still developing.

Couldn't agree more, we are in a peculiar position of trying to attract talent above our level so we either have to offer them big pay packets or get in while interest is relatively low.

I can see what you are saying, Delph and Allan are a similar mould of player. Delph was meant to be a high energy, tenacious midfielder who can provide a bit on the ball but instead we got a false hardman, pointing and blaming everyone else but himself.

Id have no issue with him covering at LB but if Leeds end up inquiring id be getting rid of and looking at Ricardo Rodriguez for a season. Davies needs to rotate with Gomes but im just not convinced after this season, maybe he will come into his own in a 3 with 2 quality mids providing some presence. Gbamim covers Allan but i dont see him playing as vertically as Allan does, more horizontal cover & stepping in as a CB when fullbacks bomb on. Doucoure starts and id like to see Iwobi cover for him and cover for RW/RF depends how you look at the 4-3-3.

No place for gylfi, not sure where Bernard is going to fit in either as he just does not produce enough of a goal threat.

 Richarlison             DCL               Ocampos

       Doucoure                    Gomes

                               Allan 

Digne            Mina           Holgate      Kenny

                             Pickford

 

Bernard                 Kean               Gordon

             Davies                   Iwobi 

                            Gbamim  

Delph        Braithewaite  Keane    Coleman

                           Lossl/Virginia

 

Means Gylfi, Walcott, Tosun, Sandro, Besic, Bolasie, Baningime & Pennington surplus in the current first team. Question marks of our CB's definitely 

 

[Romey 1878]

Delph is utter shite. The term left back should only be applied to him in terms of left back at fucking home.

Are you lot insane?

[Makis]

That Guardiola must be a no-nothing cunt then as Delph played almost 100 games for City.

[Hafnia]

1 minute ago, Makis said:

That Guardiola must be a no-nothing cunt then as Delph played almost 100 games for City.

John oshea played 100s of games for SAF, he knew his place and did what he was asked.  He moved to Sunderland as a leader and wasn't up to scratch.

Delph knew his place at man city, he's come to little old Everton on a juicy retirement contract and swaggers round thinking he's the big one.... he's a problem.  Get rid, simple as that. 

[Makis]

That does not make him shite. I'm f***ng sick of people with no clue calling players shite.

[StevO]

1 hour ago, Makis said:

That does not make him shite. I'm f***ng sick of people with no clue calling players shite.

It’s what he has shown on the football pitch, in matches for Everton, which is why people think he’s shite. He hasn’t shown once for Everton he is good enough. He may have done a good job for Pep at City, but that’s not what we’ve seen at Everton so why should we think any different?

[Bailey]

I think its a bit lazy to say Delph can play LB based on what he did at City. City full backs spend more time in midfield than they do actually defending in a back 4 and when Delph did defend he made mistakes. If he was right footed he wouldn't have played at City.

[barryj]

Even if he could play full back he’d only manage a handful of games as he’s almost always injured. 

[Hafnia]

4 hours ago, Makis said:

That does not make him shite. I'm f***ng sick of people with no clue calling players shite.

A footballer can have all the ability in the world.....  kicking a ball to the opposition with one minute left when 1 goal up makes him shite in my book among other stupid arrogant acts. 

 

[Makis]

So basically every player in the world is shite because I'm sure everyone has made a bad mistake in their career. You just haven't seen them.

[Matt]

4 hours ago, Makis said:

That does not make him shite. I'm f***ng sick of people with no clue calling players shite.

He went to City to boost their “homegrown” quota, simple as. He did fill in when others were injured but that’s about it. Since he came he’s been either injured, irresponsible or awful. Now I know I’m biased because I didn’t want him in the first place (for exactly the reasons I’ve quoted) on top of not rating him. It’s a bit like profanity; you can choose to dislike certain words and even be upset by them, but shite, poo, awful all end up with the same meaning. 
 

as for this lad... I don’t know. Seems like a motd player from what little I’ve seen of him. But then again, I don’t watch the opposition when I’m watching Everton unless someone is doing something exceptional. Our scouts are paid for that and we’ve been following him for a while. I’d like to see us offer £50 upfront for him and Sarr with a bunch of add-ons that include CL. If those 2 help get there, the clauses should be paid because they’ll have made us better. 

[Hafnia]

26 minutes ago, Makis said:

So basically every player in the world is shite because I'm sure everyone has made a bad mistake in their career. You just haven't seen them.

Bad mistake? Have you watched him for us??? 

Telling holgate to have some respect cos he gave him a few home truths on the pitch.... arguing with fans, conceding the ball to Newcastle leading to their equaliser.  He's got a piss poor big time Charlie  attitude and he's picking up a fortune.

Awful signing. 

[Bailey]

I'm not a fan of his but some of the reaction on here is way OTT. 

[Aidan]

Think Doucoure is being priced out of a move and may have to start throwing his toys out of the pram in order to force a way out of the Championship club. There are rumours from France that personal terms have been agreed. 

He was rumoured to be valued at £30m last season, if true how on earth have they valued him £5m more since last year! No way will we pay £35m and need to move on to other targets if they dont want to play fair. 

[StevO]

I think we’ll get him, but late in the transfer window when Watford start being realistic or he kicks up a fuss. 

[Hafnia]

Watford are run by absolute idiots.  I actually dislike dealing with them. 

I'm indifferent to this lad, I assume he is a specific type of player that Carlo has identified.

Allan, Doucoure and Gomes as a trio... how will that work?

[markjazzbassist]

39 minutes ago, StevO said:

I think we’ll get him, but late in the transfer window when Watford start being realistic or he kicks up a fuss. 

i'm thinking this as well.  deadline day, they fold for 25m or something.

[Palfy]

2 hours ago, Hafnia said:

Watford are run by absolute idiots.  I actually dislike dealing with them. 

I'm indifferent to this lad, I assume he is a specific type of player that Carlo has identified.

Allan, Doucoure and Gomes as a trio... how will that work?

I don’t know but I’d love to be able to give it ago.  

[Hafnia]

15 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I don’t know but I’d love to be able to give it ago.  

Got to be better than what we've got. Too slow and too weak at the moment.  Worst midfield I've seen since pembridge gemmil & co

[Matt]

5 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Got to be better than what we've got. Too slow and too weak at the moment.  Worst midfield I've seen since pembridge gemmil & co

I’d say most unbalanced than worst. 

[StevO]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

I don’t know but I’d love to be able to give it ago.  

This!

I hope you see a nice mix of athleticism, tenacity, aggression and some quality on the ball. All three are different type of midfielder, could be a great combination of the three. Or it could be terrible. 

[Hafnia]

10 minutes ago, StevO said:

This!

I hope you see a nice mix of athleticism, tenacity, aggression and some quality on the ball. All three are different type of midfielder, could be a great combination of the three. Or it could be terrible. 

One thing is for sure we can't have a slow, hide and seek trio that we've seen.

Gomes needs to understand that the manager is trying to find the right mix to get the best from him. Allan will be the leader is my guess.

Fingers crossed.  

[Gwlad all over]

4 hours ago, Hafnia said:

Watford are run by absolute idiots.  I actually dislike dealing with them. 

I'm indifferent to this lad, I assume he is a specific type of player that Carlo has identified.

Allan, Doucoure and Gomes as a trio... how will that work?

Here come Everton again, rub their hands in glee 

[Bill]

We also have bgamin so its not a disaster if we don't get him. Allan, Gomes, and Bgamin might be OK.