Marcel Brands (DoF)

[Makis]

13 hours ago, Palfy said:

He’s already said he is not changing his beliefs on zonal marking end of, so if he won’t change no option but to change him or we just carry on like we are worst in the league and defending set pieces. 

As has been said countless times, zonal marking is used by most teams when facing free kicks. It's only corners where zonal marking is not the norm. And while our corner defending could be better it's the free kicks that have been the real problem. So even if he did have an epiphany tomorrow and switched to man-marking with corners it would have very little effect.

[Palfy]

14 hours ago, Bailey said:

Its the players attitude that is the problem. They dont attack the ball and its incredibly naive to think man marking would change anything. Its not a difficult concept, they just have to attack the ball when it comes in their zone, exactly the same way they should if the ball comes near their man in a man-marking system. 

Its the same attitude from set pieces that led to Coleman rolling a timid pass to Lookman on his heels leading to the 3rd goal.

When you man mark you can block your mans run, when you zonal teams who thrive on set pieces put the ball into certain areas were a man as a 10 yard run into meet it unchallenged he has the momentum with his speed to get higher in the jump than a standing man. 

[Hafnia]

14 hours ago, Bailey said:

Its the players attitude that is the problem. They dont attack the ball and its incredibly naive to think man marking would change anything. Its not a difficult concept, they just have to attack the ball when it comes in their zone, exactly the same way they should if the ball comes near their man in a man-marking system. 

Its the same attitude from set pieces that led to Coleman rolling a timid pass to Lookman on his heels leading to the 3rd goal.

Not enough has been made out as to how shite Coleman was for that goal.... MOTD blamed lookman.  Coleman is completely finished and his ear cupping nonsense in front of the gwladys was as badly misplaced as one of his passes. 

I would blood johnjoe in now.... no point in playing Coleman. 

 

[nogs]

15 hours ago, Bailey said:

Its the players attitude that is the problem. They dont attack the ball and its incredibly naive to think man marking would change anything. Its not a difficult concept, they just have to attack the ball when it comes in their zone, exactly the same way they should if the ball comes near their man in a man-marking system. 

Its the same attitude from set pieces that led to Coleman rolling a timid pass to Lookman on his heels leading to the 3rd goal.

Here here. Which is why I find it amazing that Keane and Zouma come in for less criticism than certain players. Regardless of where people stand on set pieces, neither have the courage, desire or concentration to dominate the centre of the box in the air. 

[pete0]

1 hour ago, hafnia said:

Not enough has been made out as to how shite Coleman was for that goal.... MOTD blamed lookman.  Coleman is completely finished and his ear cupping nonsense in front of the gwladys was as badly misplaced as one of his passes. 

I would blood johnjoe in now.... no point in playing Coleman. 

 

Wonder whether than would be your stance if it was Walcott caught day dreaming. 

Both were at fault, but I'd say Lookman is the more responsible party. He's been lazy and waited for the ball to come to him and ended up getting it pinched from a player behind him. Wolves had been pressing especially down our right so Lookman should've been more aware of that danger. On the other hand possibly Coleman should've just lumped it if he thought he was playing Lookman into danger but the pass itself wasn't that bad, he made a lot worse on Saturday and one embarrassing moment tried to take on a player and just ran into him with the ball. It's a bit sad watching him now, he's given his heart and career to the club but his pace has gone and football is brutal. 

[Btay]

2 hours ago, pete0 said:

Wonder whether than would be your stance if it was Walcott caught day dreaming. 

Both were at fault, but I'd say Lookman is the more responsible party. He's been lazy and waited for the ball to come to him and ended up getting it pinched from a player behind him. Wolves had been pressing especially down our right so Lookman should've been more aware of that danger. On the other hand possibly Coleman should've just lumped it if he thought he was playing Lookman into danger but the pass itself wasn't that bad, he made a lot worse on Saturday and one embarrassing moment tried to take on a player and just ran into him with the ball. It's a bit sad watching him now, he's given his heart and career to the club but his pace has gone and football is brutal. 

The pass was terrible. The wolves defender had predicted the play was over committed in trying to get around lookman. The ball wasn’t even played in s way that lookman could roll the defender.

Yes Lookman was on his heels but best case scenario from that pass was a 50/50. 

Feel for Coleman because it’s been a rapid fall, due to the leg break but it’s not fair on him to keep hanging him out.

[Hafnia]

8 hours ago, pete0 said:

Wonder whether than would be your stance if it was Walcott caught day dreaming. 

Both were at fault, but I'd say Lookman is the more responsible party. He's been lazy and waited for the ball to come to him and ended up getting it pinched from a player behind him. Wolves had been pressing especially down our right so Lookman should've been more aware of that danger. On the other hand possibly Coleman should've just lumped it if he thought he was playing Lookman into danger but the pass itself wasn't that bad, he made a lot worse on Saturday and one embarrassing moment tried to take on a player and just ran into him with the ball. It's a bit sad watching him now, he's given his heart and career to the club but his pace has gone and football is brutal. 

No Pete... a shite picked panick pass is what it was and lookman may be the only player on the pitch who has the feet to take the ball in that scenario.

The percentages were totally against Coleman.  We don't all have to make post fit our agendas

[StevO]

10 hours ago, Palfy said:

When you man mark you can block your mans run, when you zonal teams who thrive on set pieces put the ball into certain areas were a man as a 10 yard run into meet it unchallenged he has the momentum with his speed to get higher in the jump than a standing man. 

You don’t have to be a standing man with zonal marking from a free kick though. You can still attack the ball, that’s what Marco keeps saying in the press. Most teams will use zonal from free kicks but we aren’t aggressive enough. 

I agree it’s hard not to be a standing defender when zonal on a corner, but on a free kick it’s a lack of wanting to win the ball that’s the issue for me. 

[nogs]

8 minutes ago, StevO said:

You don’t have to be a standing man with zonal marking from a free kick though. You can still attack the ball, that’s what Marco keeps saying in the press. Most teams will use zonal from free kicks but we aren’t aggressive enough. 

I agree it’s hard not to be a standing defender when zonal on a corner, but on a free kick it’s a lack of wanting to win the ball that’s the issue for me. 

And while you could argue it's up to the manager to fire players enough to do put their head where it hurts, that only goes so far. Some players just aren't up for it. 

[Palfy]

11 minutes ago, StevO said:

You don’t have to be a standing man with zonal marking from a free kick though. You can still attack the ball, that’s what Marco keeps saying in the press. Most teams will use zonal from free kicks but we aren’t aggressive enough. 

I agree it’s hard not to be a standing defender when zonal on a corner, but on a free kick it’s a lack of wanting to win the ball that’s the issue for me. 

Against Millwall we set our line and new the ball was going to the big man at the back, we couldn’t stop him winning the header they weren’t looking to score from that they were looking at winning the second ball to score and they did, why did that happen.

 I remember watching big Dunc he use to win nearly everything in the air in the end he hardly got challenged they use to concentrate on winning the second ball we don’t. 

[Palfy]

10 minutes ago, nogs said:

And while you could argue it's up to the manager to fire players enough to do put their head where it hurts, that only goes so far. Some players just aren't up for it. 

I don’t think it’s that if they never had that in their game how the fuck have they got here, they been scouted and watched and all nearly played at the highest level, if you’re saying Koeman and Silva have bought players that can’t play or have no bottle why would you want the latter to stay as manager, I think it’s more the system that isn’t working but if you believe it’s the players remember 50% of the defence and midfield are his signings. 

[StevO]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

Against Millwall we set our line and new the ball was going to the big man at the back, we couldn’t stop him winning the header they weren’t looking to score from that they were looking at winning the second ball to score and they did, why did that happen.

 I remember watching big Dunc he use to win nearly everything in the air in the end he hardly got challenged they use to concentrate on winning the second ball we don’t. 

Completely agree, I just think we need to attack the ball once in a while. 

[c1982]

On 19/01/2019 at 19:49, Finn balor said:

Who is the PSV manager it’s a former player isn’t it?

 

On 19/01/2019 at 19:52, c1982 said:

Phillip Cocu, I believe.

It’s actually Mark van Bommel. Cocu went to Fenerbahçe in the summer but it obviously didn’t work out as he’s jobless now.

[c1982]

Brands should be looking for a captain (and leaders in general) - a centre back and centre mid at least. Players who can get us organised on the pitch - players who are respected and actually listened to by their peers.

[Bailey]

 

14 hours ago, hafnia said:

Not enough has been made out as to how shite Coleman was for that goal.... MOTD blamed lookman.  Coleman is completely finished and his ear cupping nonsense in front of the gwladys was as badly misplaced as one of his passes. 

I would blood johnjoe in now.... no point in playing Coleman. 

 

Lookman was on his heels but Coleman played him into trouble big time. Coleman could see it all in front of him but still played him into the trap and then he had the gall to bollock him afterwards too.

I think Jonjoe is worth a run of games.

13 hours ago, nogs said:

Here here. Which is why I find it amazing that Keane and Zouma come in for less criticism than certain players. Regardless of where people stand on set pieces, neither have the courage, desire or concentration to dominate the centre of the box in the air. 

Generally speaking I think Zouma is a lot more aggressive than Keane but you can see their is indecision there. Zouma is a very good physical defender but he needs someone to lead him and get the best out of him. Keane 100%.

3 hours ago, StevO said:

You don’t have to be a standing man with zonal marking from a free kick though. You can still attack the ball, that’s what Marco keeps saying in the press. Most teams will use zonal from free kicks but we aren’t aggressive enough. 

I agree it’s hard not to be a standing defender when zonal on a corner, but on a free kick it’s a lack of wanting to win the ball that’s the issue for me. 

 

3 hours ago, nogs said:

And while you could argue it's up to the manager to fire players enough to do put their head where it hurts, that only goes so far. Some players just aren't up for it. 

Agree with you both.

1 hour ago, c1982 said:

Brands should be looking for a captain (and leaders in general) - a centre back and centre mid at least. Players who can get us organised on the pitch - players who are respected and actually listened to by their peers.

He should also be looking for more intelligent players, however typically the two go together.

[Hafnia]

3 hours ago, c1982 said:

 

It’s actually Mark van Bommel. Cocu went to Fenerbahçe in the summer but it obviously didn’t work out as he’s jobless now.

Van bommel... good player. Remember moyes being after him before we got fellaini. 

 

[nogs]

13 hours ago, Palfy said:

I don’t think it’s that if they never had that in their game how the fuck have they got here, they been scouted and watched and all nearly played at the highest level, if you’re saying Koeman and Silva have bought players that can’t play or have no bottle why would you want the latter to stay as manager, I think it’s more the system that isn’t working but if you believe it’s the players remember 50% of the defence and midfield are his signings. 

Managers cannot control what players actually do on the pitch. They can coach them, explain tactics to them to get them playing together in a certain way, motivate them and so on. But when it comes to a ball being flung into the box, a manager can't do anything about a player not tracking a runner, or being a split second too late in their decision making, or not fancying getting an arm in the face from the big centre half with a run on them. And so what if 50% of the defence and midfield were Silva signings? (it was only two v Wolves actually). That doesn't stop the players we saw being shite last season not being good enough, and imo Zouma was a bit of a last gasp stop gap because Silva and Brands had nowhere near long enough to make the changes to the squad that are really needed. 

But I get it Palf, your agenda is Silva out and you believe a new man at the helm will result in some miraculous up turn in fortunes. I'll be gutted if this same set of players are turning out for us in a year's time, whoever the manager is. 

[Matt]

13 hours ago, c1982 said:

Brands should be looking for a captain (and leaders in general) - a centre back and centre mid at least. Players who can get us organised on the pitch - players who are respected and actually listened to by their peers.

We've had this shout before and were made up when Walsh brought in several supposed leaders from other clubs. Not saying Brands would make the same mistake but that call just brings back bad memories.

9 hours ago, hafnia said:

Van bommel... good player. Remember moyes being after him before we got fellaini. 

Talented but a horrible player

[sydneyneil]

2 hours ago, nogs said:

Managers cannot control what players actually do on the pitch. They can coach them, explain tactics to them to get them playing together in a certain way, motivate them and so on. But when it comes to a ball being flung into the box, a manager can't do anything about a player not tracking a runner, or being a split second too late in their decision making, or not fancying getting an arm in the face from the big centre half with a run on them. And so what if 50% of the defence and midfield were Silva signings? (it was only two v Wolves actually). That doesn't stop the players we saw being shite last season not being good enough, and imo Zouma was a bit of a last gasp stop gap because Silva and Brands had nowhere near long enough to make the changes to the squad that are really needed. 

But I get it Palf, your agenda is Silva out and you believe a new man at the helm will result in some miraculous up turn in fortunes. I'll be gutted if this same set of players are turning out for us in a year's time, whoever the manager is. 

Managers can’t physically control what actually happens on the pitch. However, they spend all week coaching and directing them as to what to do. If players are under performing, collectively like ours right now, then something isn’t right. It starts from above. Look at man utd, need I say more. Whether you like it or not, some players don’t perform under managers they don’t like, or when there is no team spirit, no direction and basically when they don’t like going to work. This is true in most walks of life. 

The biggest responsibility of a manager is to get the best out of his players. That is their key role within the club. Especially one with a director of football in place. Can you name me a player now who is performing to their best? Just one maybe?

 

[nogs]

33 minutes ago, sydneyneil said:

Managers can’t physically control what actually happens on the pitch. However, they spend all week coaching and directing them as to what to do. If players are under performing, collectively like ours right now, then something isn’t right. It starts from above. Look at man utd, need I say more. Whether you like it or not, some players don’t perform under managers they don’t like, or when there is no team spirit, no direction and basically when they don’t like going to work. This is true in most walks of life. 

The biggest responsibility of a manager is to get the best out of his players. That is their key role within the club. Especially one with a director of football in place. Can you name me a player now who is performing to their best? Just one maybe?

 

But when some of the players haven't performed great under two, three, even four managers, it makes sense to start questioning whether they might not be the problem. 

[Bailey]

3 hours ago, sydneyneil said:

Managers can’t physically control what actually happens on the pitch. However, they spend all week coaching and directing them as to what to do. If players are under performing, collectively like ours right now, then something isn’t right. It starts from above. Look at man utd, need I say more. Whether you like it or not, some players don’t perform under managers they don’t like, or when there is no team spirit, no direction and basically when they don’t like going to work. This is true in most walks of life. 

The biggest responsibility of a manager is to get the best out of his players. That is their key role within the club. Especially one with a director of football in place. Can you name me a player now who is performing to their best? Just one maybe?

 

Best is a stretch but moat of these players are playing better than they did under the last 3 managers.

[sydneyneil]

5 hours ago, Bailey said:

Best is a stretch but moat of these players are playing better than they did under the last 3 managers.

I must be watching a different game then...Michael Keane slightly (most of the praise had been way over the top) but I can’t think of anyone else. Walcott and tosun were better under allardyce. Schneiderlin was better when he arrived, sigurdsson I’m not quite sure when he’s played well, but he was certainly better at Swansea. 

7 hours ago, nogs said:

But when some of the players haven't performed great under two, three, even four managers, it makes sense to start questioning whether they might not be the problem. 

The previous managers were also shit nogs. Koeman was dreadful, can we even remember a game when we thought we played well except the city 4-0? Let’s not even discuss unsworth and allardyce is well, Sam allardyce and I don’t want to give him more dicusssion time. The players did not get allardyce  the sack. Bad appointments of managers with poor track records. Poor track records for where we want to get to.

its ironic that we are saying we should give managers more time when we appointed koeman and Silva on the basis of short term success at their previous clubs. 

[nogs]

32 minutes ago, sydneyneil said:

I must be watching a different game then...Michael Keane slightly (most of the praise had been way over the top) but I can’t think of anyone else. Walcott and tosun were better under allardyce. Schneiderlin was better when he arrived, sigurdsson I’m not quite sure when he’s played well, but he was certainly better at Swansea. 

The previous managers were also shit nogs. Koeman was dreadful, can we even remember a game when we thought we played well except the city 4-0? Let’s not even discuss unsworth and allardyce is well, Sam allardyce and I don’t want to give him more dicusssion time. The players did not get allardyce  the sack. Bad appointments of managers with poor track records. Poor track records for where we want to get to.

its ironic that we are saying we should give managers more time when we appointed koeman and Silva on the basis of short term success at their previous clubs. 

I don't necessarily disagree. I never really got the at-all-costs pursuit of Silva. But what I will say is this - if we come to the conclusion that yet another manager is shit and has to be sacked, then I'm going to find it very hard not to conclude that our owner is an absolute muppet who hasn't got a clue what he's doing. And I don't want to face that possibility just yet because that could end in some bad, bad places. 

[Bailey]

2 hours ago, sydneyneil said:

I must be watching a different game then...Michael Keane slightly (most of the praise had been way over the top) but I can’t think of anyone else. Walcott and tosun were better under allardyce. Schneiderlin was better when he arrived, sigurdsson I’m not quite sure when he’s played well, but he was certainly better at Swansea. 

The previous managers were also shit nogs. Koeman was dreadful, can we even remember a game when we thought we played well except the city 4-0? Let’s not even discuss unsworth and allardyce is well, Sam allardyce and I don’t want to give him more dicusssion time. The players did not get allardyce  the sack. Bad appointments of managers with poor track records. Poor track records for where we want to get to.

its ironic that we are saying we should give managers more time when we appointed koeman and Silva on the basis of short term success at their previous clubs. 

That is why I said our last 3 managers. Keane is streets better, Walcott is just as average and Tosun looked better because the rest of the side was so bad. Schneiderlin played well for half a season and then for the same manager was crap.

Pickford has probably been the only one that has had a worse season. 

I thibk your last point is an interesting one however Silva had won trophies in Portugal and Greece whilst also showing promise at two clubs in short spells in the PL. Koeman had a mixed record but he also won trophies in Spain and Holland and had 2 successful years at Southampton. Martinez had even won an FA Cup, got Swansea promoted and has subsequently guided Belgium to 3rd in the WC. They had all done more than Moyes had.

[Palfy]

7 hours ago, nogs said:

I don't necessarily disagree. I never really got the at-all-costs pursuit of Silva. But what I will say is this - if we come to the conclusion that yet another manager is shit and has to be sacked, then I'm going to find it very hard not to conclude that our owner is an absolute muppet who hasn't got a clue what he's doing. And I don't want to face that possibility just yet because that could end in some bad, bad places. 

I think that nearly all our problems have stemmed from an owner who hasn't got a clue about football who doesn't know the difference between a good manager or bad one yet as over seen the acquisition of 3 in a short space of time and none have worked out.

Now that's not a knee jerk reaction

I've been saying this since 6 months into Koeman's reign that the biggest mistake Moshiri made was lining up Koeman and Walsh and deciding to sack Martinez before he had ever met him, what he should have done was come in surveyed the place and given Martinez a little bit of money and 6 months to make an impression, after all the football we were playing under Martinez was some of the best I've witnessed for a long time in possession and going forward we just couldn't defend.

But what Moshiri did was throw his money around has to say this is my club now I'm making changes from day one and my money is going to buy us success, that's great if you know what your doing not so good if you haven't got a clue we could have the next Randy Learner on our hands, but hopefully the best signing he's made to date is Brands and he let's him get on with running the club and keeps well away from any team decisions, cause if not we could easily be the next Villa all the gear no idea.

[Romey 1878]

5 hours ago, Palfy said:

after all the football we were playing under Martinez was some of the best I've witnessed for a long time in possession and going forward we just couldn't defend.

Martinez' first season we did. It was some of the best football I'd ever seen us play and I genuinely thought we were going places. But then for 2 years we played utter shite football that bored me to tears.

[Palfy]

9 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

Martinez' first season we did. It was some of the best football I'd ever seen us play and I genuinely thought we were going places. But then for 2 years we played utter shite football that bored me to tears.

I do agree I think the 1st season set the standard for us which made the next 2 fucking painful, but I still think we weren’t that far away from having a good team and believe Moshiri should have given a little bit of money and time, for me the last season and a half have been the worst in my memory based on how much money and opportunity has been thrown at the team, the old adage you can’t buy success has been proven right in our case. 

[pete0]

Tbf to Moshiri he went after Brands and Mochi but they wouldn't come. He's then gone for the bloke who is largely credited with Leicester winning the league. On paper Walsh had the credentials to be successful here. 

Koeman was poor though. Only had to look at the thrashing we gave them that season. But we did need a new manager, Martinez got rid of all the fitness staff as he had an outdated degree and it showed with our players playing at a snails pace, shortly after that he lost the dressing room. Nice guy, but stubborn to his own philosophy. Shame as if he was willing to change his philosophy he could've grown in to a top manager with us and moshiri's money. 

[Makis]

The Walsh/Koeman case was an excellent example why manager should not decide who the club signs. There were obviously several players practically signed by Koeman who we are stuck with.

[Bailey]

4 hours ago, Palfy said:

I do agree I think the 1st season set the standard for us which made the next 2 fucking painful, but I still think we weren’t that far away from having a good team and believe Moshiri should have given a little bit of money and time, for me the last season and a half have been the worst in my memory based on how much money and opportunity has been thrown at the team, the old adage you can’t buy success has been proven right in our case. 

Thats all well and good but Martinez had completely lost the dressing room. Once that happens its game over for any manager and rightly so.