January Transfer Window

[Cornish Steve]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

Your struggle with that mate he’s on loan till the end of the season. 

Welch is another younger player doing well, although I have no idea whether he can play on the left. The point is not this specific name or that: Instead it's having a strategy, especially under current FFP circumstances, to place more emphasis on bringing through younger players. For week after week, as we lost starter after starter, all we heard was now's not the right time, or they're not ready, or experience is more important. Then, through necessity, four younger players start, and they do well. Well, would you believe it!?

[RuffRob]

The irony in all this is that a certain Thierry Small fucked off this summer to Southampton. Supposedly a very well thought of 17 year old LB. 

My take is that he must have seen his arse when Nkounkou came to the club as a young LB. He was wanting off last year when Ancelotti was around, and still pushed to get out when Benitez was came in.

[London Blue]

52 minutes ago, RuffRob said:

The irony in all this is that a certain Thierry Small fucked off this summer to Southampton. Supposedly a very well thought of 17 year old LB. 

My take is that he must have seen his arse when Nkounkou came to the club as a young LB. He was wanting off last year when Ancelotti was around, and still pushed to get out when Benitez was came in.

I think Small was going to be a winger or wing back as he was rapid going forward with good dribbling skills.

I seem to remember him falling out with Brands?

[MikeO]

1 hour ago, RuffRob said:

The irony in all this is that a certain Thierry Small fucked off this summer to Southampton.

The other irony is that he's gone to a club who have Walker-Peters as first choice LB and also Romain Perraud ahead of him in the pecking order who, both being only 24, will give him probably less chance for progression than he had with us.

[StevO]

1 hour ago, RuffRob said:

The irony in all this is that a certain Thierry Small fucked off this summer to Southampton. Supposedly a very well thought of 17 year old LB. 

My take is that he must have seen his arse when Nkounkou came to the club as a young LB. He was wanting off last year when Ancelotti was around, and still pushed to get out when Benitez was came in.

If that was the thought process of a youth player, 15 years old when we signed Nkounkou, who had been offered a professional contract and knew how well he was thought of by the club then I’m glad to see the back of him. I doubt Rafa would have picked him over Digne or Godfrey anyway. 
 

Appearances for Southampton? Zero. 
Good luck to the kid. 

[RuffRob]

1 hour ago, MikeO said:

The other irony is that he's gone to a club who have Walker-Peters as first choice LB and also Romain Perraud ahead of him in the pecking order who, both being only 24, will give him probably less chance for progression than he had with us.

I know, I can't get my head around a player that age being so full of himself. Like you say it not like his gone where he is getting any more of a chance of first time football. What compensation did we get for his development in the end? Anybody know?  

[Romey 1878]

12 minutes ago, RuffRob said:

I know, I can't get my head around a player that age being so full of himself. Like you say it not like his gone where he is getting any more of a chance of first time football. What compensation did we get for his development in the end? Anybody know?  

I don't think it's been decided yet.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

On 22/12/2021 at 14:15, MikeO said:

Study undertaken by the University of Liverpool for the Fail.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-10108067/How-Premier-League-club-spend-transfers-FFP-rules.html

The report was also said to be bollocks with Rafa later confirming that we do have money to spend in January 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

On 22/12/2021 at 18:18, Cornish Steve said:

Welch is another younger player doing well, although I have no idea whether he can play on the left. The point is not this specific name or that: Instead it's having a strategy, especially under current FFP circumstances, to place more emphasis on bringing through younger players. For week after week, as we lost starter after starter, all we heard was now's not the right time, or they're not ready, or experience is more important. Then, through necessity, four younger players start, and they do well. Well, would you believe it!?

Welch is a CB , I get the impression you are just throwing in names of players you’ve never seen play just because they are youngsters. What makes you think he would be a better option than Godfrey or Digne at LB?

As much as it was an heroic performance against Chelsea we were totally dominated and if they had taken their chances , luckily all their forwards were sat in the stands, we would have been thrashed 

Its just not sustainable to hope we can ride our luck like that for a prolonged run of games

You seem to be including Gordon as one of the players forced on Rafa for the Chelsea game yet he has been a regular all season, which kind of goes against your argument 

Of the other 3 for me although neither Simms or Dobbin let themselves down only Branthwaite has given the manager a selection dilemma and he has had his own injury issues this season otherwise he probably would have been involved more anyway

Would you honestly be happy if we had to go through the rest of the season with the starting XI we put out against Chelsea?

 

[Cornish Steve]

9 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Welch is a CB , I get the impression you are just throwing in names of players you’ve never seen play just because they are youngsters. What makes you think he would be a better option than Godfrey or Digne at LB?

As much as it was an heroic performance against Chelsea we were totally dominated and if they had taken their chances , luckily all their forwards were sat in the stands, we would have been thrashed 

Its just not sustainable to hope we can ride our luck like that for a prolonged run of games

You seem to be including Gordon as one of the players forced on Rafa for the Chelsea game yet he has been a regular all season, which kind of goes against your argument 

Of the other 3 for me although neither Simms or Dobbin let themselves down only Branthwaite has given the manager a selection dilemma and he has had his own injury issues this season otherwise he probably would have been involved more anyway

Would you honestly be happy if we had to go through the rest of the season with the starting XI we put out against Chelsea?

 

Let's put aside the fact that Gordon was reluctantly introduced as a substitute when virtually no other options were available. My point, as I wrote, is not specific names but a committed strategy to leverage our investment in young players. There are many financial benefits since they're our players always, there's no need to pay overinflated sums (often on older players), and no need for high agent fees. Plus, they know the club, know the setup, know the senior players, and therefore would fit in quickly. By all means correct me if young player B is better than young player A, but let's not spend another penny on aging has-beens.

[Cornish Steve]

9 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Would you honestly be happy if we had to go through the rest of the season with the starting XI we put out against Chelsea?

 

No, I would not. Neither Iwobi nor Holgate should be starting.

[c1982]

That Mwepu at Brighton is the kind of signing we should be making (too late now) - looks another great find by their scouting team.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

16 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

Let's put aside the fact that Gordon was reluctantly introduced as a substitute when virtually no other options were available. My point, as I wrote, is not specific names but a committed strategy to leverage our investment in young players. There are many financial benefits since they're our players always, there's no need to pay overinflated sums (often on older players), and no need for high agent fees. Plus, they know the club, know the setup, know the senior players, and therefore would fit in quickly. By all means correct me if young player B is better than young player A, but let's not spend another penny on aging has-beens.

I love nothing more than to see players come up through the ranks and be successful at the club but you are living in a fantasy land. 
 

The step up from U23 football is immense and you just seem to be throwing in random names of players you’ve never even seen play.  I take your point that for you it’s more the general idea of playing the kids than championing any specific players but the point remains those players have to be good enough and they have to be ready

Gordon is a prime example, he was way too good for U23 football and stood out like a sore thumb. However he struggled to make any kind of impact last season at Preston and for the most part he has struggled to make an impact when playing in the Premiership

Personally I think we are doing the right thing with him by introducing him gradually. He has been in and around the first team all season, he is learning the defensive side of his game and learning to be more disciplined and in time he may develop into a first team regular . But that’s exactly what he needs, time

Likewise Branthwaite had his struggles at Blackburn and made some very costly mistakes for them, I’m fine with that as it’s all part of the learning process and it’ was costing Blackburn not us

They are light years ahead of the players you are wanting to just throw in at the deep end even if it’s out of position so trying to say I told you so because we managed to cling on to steal a point at Chelsea is a bit premature

That’s before you even consider the extra pressure on the local lads to perform, we’ve all seen how quickly the fans turned on the likes of Leon Osman, Victor Anichebe and Tom Davies and even more so when we are in a bad run and the atmosphere turns toxic very quickly so for me throwing kids in who aren’t ready can end up destroying their careers

At the end of the day if these lads are good enough they will find their way to the top and force their way through when they are ready

 

[RuffRob]

1 hour ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

I love nothing more than to see players come up through the ranks and be successful at the club but you are living in a fantasy land. 
 

The step up from U23 football is immense and you just seem to be throwing in random names of players you’ve never even seen play.  I take your point that for you it’s more the general idea of playing the kids than championing any specific players but the point remains those players have to be good enough and they have to be ready

Gordon is a prime example, he was way too good for U23 football and stood out like a sore thumb. However he struggled to make any kind of impact last season at Preston and for the most part he has struggled to make an impact when playing in the Premiership

Personally I think we are doing the right thing with him by introducing him gradually. He has been in and around the first team all season, he is learning the defensive side of his game and learning to be more disciplined and in time he may develop into a first team regular . But that’s exactly what he needs, time

Likewise Branthwaite had his struggles at Blackburn and made some very costly mistakes for them, I’m fine with that as it’s all part of the learning process and it’ was costing Blackburn not us

They are  years ahead of the players you are wanting to just throw in at the deep end even if it’s out of position so trying to say I told you so because we managed to cling on to steal a point at Chelsea is a bit premature

That’s before you even consider the extra pressure on the local lads to perform, we’ve all seen how quickly the fans turned on the likes of Leon Osman, Victor Anichebe and Tom Davies and even more so when we are in a bad run and the atmosphere turns toxic very quickly so for me throwing kids in who aren’t ready can end up destroying their careers

At the end of the day if these lads are good enough they will find their way to the top and force their way through when they are ready

 

[RuffRob]

Meant to say - great post.

[Cornish Steve]

7 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

I love nothing more than to see players come up through the ranks and be successful at the club but you are living in a fantasy land. 
 

The step up from U23 football is immense and you just seem to be throwing in random names of players you’ve never even seen play.  I take your point that for you it’s more the general idea of playing the kids than championing any specific players but the point remains those players have to be good enough and they have to be ready

Gordon is a prime example, he was way too good for U23 football and stood out like a sore thumb. However he struggled to make any kind of impact last season at Preston and for the most part he has struggled to make an impact when playing in the Premiership

Personally I think we are doing the right thing with him by introducing him gradually. He has been in and around the first team all season, he is learning the defensive side of his game and learning to be more disciplined and in time he may develop into a first team regular . But that’s exactly what he needs, time

Likewise Branthwaite had his struggles at Blackburn and made some very costly mistakes for them, I’m fine with that as it’s all part of the learning process and it’ was costing Blackburn not us

They are light years ahead of the players you are wanting to just throw in at the deep end even if it’s out of position so trying to say I told you so because we managed to cling on to steal a point at Chelsea is a bit premature

That’s before you even consider the extra pressure on the local lads to perform, we’ve all seen how quickly the fans turned on the likes of Leon Osman, Victor Anichebe and Tom Davies and even more so when we are in a bad run and the atmosphere turns toxic very quickly so for me throwing kids in who aren’t ready can end up destroying their careers

At the end of the day if these lads are good enough they will find their way to the top and force their way through when they are ready

 

Well put, and I understand the argument. Maybe it's because I'm from the era when young players weren't expected to go through hoop after hoop and agents weren't convincing teams the only route is to buy through them (follow the money). The lower leagues are much more physical than the Prem, so that route weeds out some players that it shouldn't. How many players have shot straight from the lower leagues to the top levels? Jamie Vardy, for one, and there are others.

However we do it, whether through years going through an apprenticeship in the lower leagues or a fast track/regular track model, we should be focusing much more on bringing through younger players. Not five years ago, we were all excited about the crop of U-23s we had, many starring in a World Cup win. Our recruitment was as much to the U23s as to the first team, and that to me was fantastic. It was our poor man's equivalent to the Chelsea approach, but it brought us DC-L, Stones, and others now starring elsewhere.

So it's very disappointing to me to see a manager bringing in older players, even players from the retirement leagues (which is what China and some other leagues are), instead of planning for the future. I just don't get that. Given the FFP mess we're in, we need a smart strategy, and I don't see any better (or even close to better) than a strategy centred on young players.

[dunlopp9987]

16 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

Well put, and I understand the argument. Maybe it's because I'm from the era when young players weren't expected to go through hoop after hoop and agents weren't convincing teams the only route is to buy through them (follow the money). The lower leagues are much more physical than the Prem, so that route weeds out some players that it shouldn't. How many players have shot straight from the lower leagues to the top levels? Jamie Vardy, for one, and there are others.

However we do it, whether through years going through an apprenticeship in the lower leagues or a fast track/regular track model, we should be focusing much more on bringing through younger players. Not five years ago, we were all excited about the crop of U-23s we had, many starring in a World Cup win. Our recruitment was as much to the U23s as to the first team, and that to me was fantastic. It was our poor man's equivalent to the Chelsea approach, but it brought us DC-L, Stones, and others now starring elsewhere.

So it's very disappointing to me to see a manager bringing in older players, even players from the retirement leagues (which is what China and some other leagues are), instead of planning for the future. I just don't get that. Given the FFP mess we're in, we need a smart strategy, and I don't see any better (or even close to better) than a strategy centred on young players.

Are you referring to Rafa? He brought in one (Rondon), who was meant to be cover and who he has a good working relationship with. The other two are Townsend (who started the season well but has tapered off) and Gray, who has arguably been our best player of the season.

Now they're bringing in a young left back for the future, so I'm a little confused what point you're trying to make here. I fully agree with everything you said before that, but then it just felt like you were going after Rafa for no apparent reason

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

30 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

Well put, and I understand the argument. Maybe it's because I'm from the era when young players weren't expected to go through hoop after hoop and agents weren't convincing teams the only route is to buy through them (follow the money). The lower leagues are much more physical than the Prem, so that route weeds out some players that it shouldn't. How many players have shot straight from the lower leagues to the top levels? Jamie Vardy, for one, and there are others.

However we do it, whether through years going through an apprenticeship in the lower leagues or a fast track/regular track model, we should be focusing much more on bringing through younger players. Not five years ago, we were all excited about the crop of U-23s we had, many starring in a World Cup win. Our recruitment was as much to the U23s as to the first team, and that to me was fantastic. It was our poor man's equivalent to the Chelsea approach, but it brought us DC-L, Stones, and others now starring elsewhere.

So it's very disappointing to me to see a manager bringing in older players, even players from the retirement leagues (which is what China and some other leagues are), instead of planning for the future. I just don't get that. Given the FFP mess we're in, we need a smart strategy, and I don't see any better (or even close to better) than a strategy centred on young players.

That’s kind of the point , just because a player does well at U23 level doesn’t mean they are ready or good enough to be regular starters in the Premier League. Of those 5 only DCL has made them step up . Lookman has had some success but has only done it in flashes and already looks like a journeyman with the number of clubs he’s had. JJK looked like the Scouse Cafu at U23 level but has failed to make it in the Premier League. Dowell and Connolly had to drop down to lower divisions to get game time and Tom Davies just hasn’t developed like we all hoped

I think ideally we still want to buy players who are young and hungry, as we have with the likes of Branthwaite , Nkoounku and Moise Kean , but we’ve got ourselves in that much of a mess with FFP that any money we do have needs to go on players for the here and now before we end up getting relegated

 

 

[Palfy]

12 minutes ago, dunlopp9987 said:

Are you referring to Rafa? He brought in one (Rondon), who was meant to be cover and who he has a good working relationship with. The other two are Townsend (who started the season well but has tapered off) and Gray, who has arguably been our best player of the season.

Now they're bringing in a young left back for the future, so I'm a little confused what point you're trying to make here. I fully agree with everything you said before that, but then it just felt like you were going after Rafa for no apparent reason

I think he’s confused with short term needs and planning for the future. Gray and Mykolenko if he arrives are for the long term and part of the plan, Townsend and Rondon were stop gap players that he trusted could do a short term job for him at minimal cost. I also agree with Steve that we have to promote with in the club but not every youth player is good enough, granted the 3 who came in for the Chelsea game proved to the manager he has youngsters he can rely on if he puts them in, but Simms and Dobbin aren’t going to take DCL and Richarlison’s places anytime soon. 

[StevO]

3 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

Not five years ago, we were all excited about the crop of U-23s we had, many starring in a World Cup win. 

Im pretty sure I was banging on that most of the five (I think we had five) in the World Cup team wouldn’t make it at Everton as first team players. Almost to the point I sounded like a miserable bastard. Anyway, told you so. Dom is great though. 

[StevO]

3 hours ago, Palfy said:

I think he’s confused with short term needs and planning for the future. Gray and Mykolenko if he arrives are for the long term and part of the plan, Townsend and Rondon were stop gap players that he trusted could do a short term job for him at minimal cost. I also agree with Steve that we have to promote with in the club but not every youth player is good enough, granted the 3 who came in for the Chelsea game proved to the manager he has youngsters he can rely on if he puts them in, but Simms and Dobbin aren’t going to take DCL and Richarlison’s places anytime soon. 

I’m not sure Gray is part of a long term plan. I think he was a bargain that was worth the risk while we needed numbers and has so far worked out. I agree with everything else though. 

[Palfy]

40 minutes ago, StevO said:

I’m not sure Gray is part of a long term plan. I think he was a bargain that was worth the risk while we needed numbers and has so far worked out. I agree with everything else though. 

You are right he probably wasn’t bought for the long term, and now has played himself into the long term plan with better performance than his cost and wages would suggest we were going to get. 

[AlbanyNYToffee]

This might get me banned from TT but here it goes. I'd desperately like us to sign AWB from Utd and I think if we can get Barkley on loan, those 2 along with Mykolenko could really improve things for us the rest of the way. 

[Cornish Steve]

4 minutes ago, AlbanyNYToffee said:

This might get me banned from TT but here it goes. I'd desperately like us to sign AWB from Utd and I think if we can get Barkley on loan, those 2 along with Mykolenko could really improve things for us the rest of the way. 

There's no doubt that AWB has gone downhill during his time at United, but I doubt they would release him for any fee we could afford right now.

[Romey 1878]

49 minutes ago, AlbanyNYToffee said:

This might get me banned from TT but here it goes. I'd desperately like us to sign AWB from Utd and I think if we can get Barkley on loan, those 2 along with Mykolenko could really improve things for us the rest of the way. 

AWB is so over rated it's untrue. Awful going forward and in terms of defending he can get back and put a tackle in but he makes so many mistakes meaning he needs to do those things.

Barkley is still the same braindead idiot he's always been - all the quality in the world but shows it 1 game out of 5.

We obviously aren't going to be able to bring in absolutely brilliant players but we should aiming for more than these two. Particularly AWB, he's just not good at all.

[dunlopp9987]

1 hour ago, Romey 1878 said:

AWB is so over rated it's untrue. Awful going forward and in terms of defending he can get back and put a tackle in but he makes so many mistakes meaning he needs to do those things.

Barkley is still the same braindead idiot he's always been - all the quality in the world but shows it 1 game out of 5.

We obviously aren't going to be able to bring in absolutely brilliant players but we should aiming for more than these two. Particularly AWB, he's just not good at all.

Wonder if a change of scenery would change his fortunes. He looked quite good at Palace.

[StevO]

3 hours ago, AlbanyNYToffee said:

This might get me banned from TT but here it goes. I'd desperately like us to sign AWB from Utd and I think if we can get Barkley on loan, those 2 along with Mykolenko could really improve things for us the rest of the way. 

I’d have no problem with Barkley on loan. Looking forward to seeing what the left back can do. I’d expect AWB to have a massive fee but I don’t rate him, this Patterson kid seems more exciting to me. 

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, StevO said:

I’d have no problem with Barkley on loan. Looking forward to seeing what the left back can do. I’d expect AWB to have a massive fee but I don’t rate him, this Patterson kid seems more exciting to me. 

I’d like to see Patterson join us we normally do well with our Scottish players, about time to bring another one to the club to add some endeavour and bite. 

[StevO]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

I’d like to see Patterson join us we normally do well with our Scottish players, about time to bring another one to the club to add some endeavour and bite. 

I’d still bring Naismith back now. Don’t care if he’s finished, he’s better than Rondon and Iwobi. 

[badaids]

3 minutes ago, StevO said:

I’d still bring Naismith back now. Don’t care if he’s finished, he’s better than Rondon and Iwobi. 

I’d bring back Barlow or Angel. Actually I wouldn’t. Aye, I definitely would.