André Gomes

[pete0]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

The fact he’s back at all after that injury is nothing short of astounding. That he’s not found his rhythm again is completely understandable especially playing so many minutes with paid actors being rotated around him. I’m treating all this games as glorified friendlies at the moment rather than using them to judge players. 

He's had many a game similar before the injury to the point that when I think of him as a player it's what I'm almost expecting from him now. Safe, steady, lackluster, blah, which is utterly frustrating as he's shown he's capable of much more even drawing comparisons to Arteta on occasion. Right now other than looking I couldn't tell you one thing he's better than Arteta at.

He's getting the defensive side okay but that's the easiest thing in a 442, 90% of it is just being in the right position when we're not in possession when it comes to defending so school boy stuff I'd expect from any midfielder. When he's in possession he's just not doing enough, he's not influencing the play and offensively I can't even remember the last time he had a proper effort on goal. 

[Matt]

Pretty sure he’d been recovering from an injury before this latest one too. Judge him next season with a proper partner beside him

[pete0]

44 minutes ago, Matt said:

Pretty sure he’d been recovering from an injury before this latest one too. Judge him next season with a proper partner beside him

He arrived injured but between then and his ankle injury he only missed 6 out of 41 games so don't think injury excuses him. 

He's had some dog shit performances next to him but he's not exactly done anything better to help those players or outshine them. 

[Bailey]

He clearly sees the game far better than any midfielder we have or have had for a good few years but against Spurs he couldn't make a pass and his confidence dropped. I also imagine fatigue kicked in a fair bit as well. He also doesn't suit this way of playing in my opinion because 442 relies upon the midfield covering a lot of ground in support of the strikers and he isn't a player who can do that, especially with two equally as non-suiting players in Davies and Sigurdsson.

He definitely isn't a consistent player and he also has confidence issues. I also have doubts about him generally playing 2 games in a week, let alone the turnaround now after the season he has had but that doesn't mean that he isn't still a very good player when the stars align. It's the managers challenge to get those stars in right order more often than not.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/carlo-ancelottis-andre-gomes-conundrum-18563418

[Bailey]

Gomes' defensive frailties have been known for a while. I think my nan could dribble past him at times, especially in open play.

In my opinion he should be the most advanced midfielder of a 3 man midfield. He is our most technical midfielder and he has a much better picture of the game around him than the others (not that he showed it at Spurs). I look back at his performances from Valencia and the player we have is a different person.

[Elston Gunnn]

45 minutes ago, Bailey said:

In  my opinion he should be the most advanced midfielder of a 3 man midfield. He is our most technical midfielder and he has a much better picture of the game around him than the others (not that he showed it at Spurs).

Important points by Bailey here.  Raises the problem referenced in the link above posted by duncanmc-magic: as Gomes “is playing in a 4-4-2 system that doesn’t suit him, ... Ancelotti will be left with a conundrum as to whether he thinks Gomes is worth adjusting his whole tactical set-up for next  season.”

I have been enthusiastic about Gomes from the beginning, but he’s not really a DCM.  Nor is he quite a box-to-box.  He’s neither a deep-lying playmaker, nor a 10.  He’s sort of mid-pitch playmaker.  He can play very effectively in the middle 50 yards of the pitch, but not much more.

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

Gomes' defensive frailties have been known for a while. I think my nan could dribble past him at times, especially in open play.

In my opinion he should be the most advanced midfielder of a 3 man midfield. He is our most technical midfielder and he has a much better picture of the game around him than the others (not that he showed it at Spurs). I look back at his performances from Valencia and the player we have is a different person.

I agree he should be most advanced out of the MFs in a 3 man MF with Davies and Delph holding at the moment with the players we have, you couldn’t ask Gylfi to play in a more defensive role. 
But when we play 4 in the middle we become very defensive and the the 2 central MFs don’t get to link up with the 2 up front that’s left more to the 2 wide-men. 
Which isn’t playing to his best strengths, with 2 in the middle he could get forward more if one of the 2 wide men holds there position and tucks into cover the space, you don’t see that so I would say both central MFs are more concerned with holding a more defensive position. 

[Bailey]

6 hours ago, Elston Gunnn said:

Important points by Bailey here.  Raises the problem referenced in the link above posted by duncanmc-magic: as Gomes “is playing in a 4-4-2 system that doesn’t suit him, ... Ancelotti will be left with a conundrum as to whether he thinks Gomes is worth adjusting his whole tactical set-up for next  season.”

I have been enthusiastic about Gomes from the beginning, but he’s not really a DCM.  Nor is he quite a box-to-box.  He’s neither a deep-lying playmaker, nor a 10.  He’s sort of mid-pitch playmaker.  He can play very effectively in the middle 50 yards of the pitch, but not much more.

I completely agree about the type of player he is. Unfortunately I think we have a few of these types of player and that's why we have so many problems in the middle of the park. 

5 hours ago, Palfy said:

I agree he should be most advanced out of the MFs in a 3 man MF with Davies and Delph holding at the moment with the players we have, you couldn’t ask Gylfi to play in a more defensive role. 
But when we play 4 in the middle we become very defensive and the the 2 central MFs don’t get to link up with the 2 up front that’s left more to the 2 wide-men. 
Which isn’t playing to his best strengths, with 2 in the middle he could get forward more if one of the 2 wide men holds there position and tucks into cover the space, you don’t see that so I would say both central MFs are more concerned with holding a more defensive position. 

Our centre mids in this system are very restricted. It suits them in some ways because they don't run very far and they are in quite a tight shape. That's even better when we have good possession and can pop the ball around.

When that space gets overloaded or when that safe shape is broken up such as in a transition, he may as well be a cardboard cut out as he is that easy to get past. 

[Hafnia]

Let's not get too hung up on technicalities here....

He has everything in his locker to run games anywhere in the midfield.  Yes he does need a ball winner maybe nothing excuses his bottom level performances.

He concerned me at the start as having Ross Barkley talent with Ross Barkley mentality.  I've seen nothing to change that.  He's played amazing games when unfit- shit games when fully fit. It's all in his head. 

[Tonsta]

We have seen the re-emergence of Pogba, with Fernadez along side, i think we will see the same with Gomes when he has quality support. ( excuse my spelling)

[Hafnia]

1 hour ago, Tonsta said:

We have seen the re-emergence of Pogba, with Fernadez along side, i think we will see the same with Gomes when he has quality support. ( excuse my spelling)

I've seen him disappear in games where we have an advantage in quality... seen him dominate in games where we were lacking in quality.

There is no explanation for his inconsistent performances other than he himself. 

[AlbanyNYToffee]

4 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

I've seen him disappear in games where we have an advantage in quality... seen him dominate in games where we were lacking in quality.

There is no explanation for his inconsistent performances other than he himself. 

There is not enough credit being given to him for his ability to overcome the injury so quickly. I feel sorry for Andre having to play every 3 days coming back from that. Totally unfair to him. He looked like a wounded duck out there last night, his face said it all. We've seen that injury a few times here in the states and to my knowledge none of the players have ever gotten back to what they were before. And those players even took their time coming back. We'll be lucky to have 90% of the original Andre in September. 

[Shukes]

That sounds like we need to replace him then unfortunately. No point hanging on to players that aren’t going to come back from injury’s.

[Matt]

4 hours ago, Shukes said:

That sounds like we need to replace him then unfortunately. No point hanging on to players that aren’t going to come back from injury’s.

So get rid of anyone who’s been injured?  
it’s been a few games after his ankle was twisted 90 degrees Ffs!

[Shukes]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

So get rid of anyone who’s been injured?  
it’s been a few games after his ankle was twisted 90 degrees Ffs!

No, my comment is replying to people saying that players don’t recover from these injury’s.

I think he is just simply in bad form at the moment. He will get better, especially with better players around him. He is carrying a lot on his shoulders for me.

[Hafnia]

7 hours ago, AlbanyNYToffee said:

There is not enough credit being given to him for his ability to overcome the injury so quickly. I feel sorry for Andre having to play every 3 days coming back from that. Totally unfair to him. He looked like a wounded duck out there last night, his face said it all. We've seen that injury a few times here in the states and to my knowledge none of the players have ever gotten back to what they were before. And those players even took their time coming back. We'll be lucky to have 90% of the original Andre in September. 

His injury comeback was phenomenal....  he trained and healed.

He came back and played games where he was playing forward looking passes like a quarterback.... pinging passes, and expressing himself. Nothing that the injury or lack of fitness impacted. 

I'm not giving him the injury excuse for his performances of late.  They reflect the things we seen before he signed permanently, before he got he injured.   Him getting a ball 40 yards from goal, with players in front of him and passing back to Michael Keane repeatedly is unacceptable. 

If Tom Davies did this he would be getting roasted. End of. 

We've got a terrible habit of affording certain players far more leeway than others.  This lad has more ability in his little toe than most..... no question.  He's a cracking lad, I want the best for him as he's been through shit.  But ffs, stop making out like he was some maraudering box to box midfielder who did 12k a match and made 15 tackles a game and his ability has been impacted by the injury.

He's a deep lying playmaker or advanced playmaker (Preferably for me)...  he's playing so far within himself it's a joke.  Passing balls sideways and backwards.   He needs to take responsibility for the ball.   About time certain fan favourites are called for average to low end shite, it seems the triple lock on pickford criticism is reducing after people are starting to realise that he isn't showing any signs of stopping the errors. 

Where we need to be a d want to be - players need to start showing accountability and some bottle. 

[Btay]

19 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

His injury comeback was phenomenal....  he trained and healed.

He came back and played games where he was playing forward looking passes like a quarterback.... pinging passes, and expressing himself. Nothing that the injury or lack of fitness impacted. 

I'm not giving him the injury excuse for his performances of late.  They reflect the things we seen before he signed permanently, before he got he injured.   Him getting a ball 40 yards from goal, with players in front of him and passing back to Michael Keane repeatedly is unacceptable. 

If Tom Davies did this he would be getting roasted. End of. 

We've got a terrible habit of affording certain players far more leeway than others.  This lad has more ability in his little toe than most..... no question.  He's a cracking lad, I want the best for him as he's been through shit.  But ffs, stop making out like he was some maraudering box to box midfielder who did 12k a match and made 15 tackles a game and his ability has been impacted by the injury.

He's a deep lying playmaker or advanced playmaker (Preferably for me)...  he's playing so far within himself it's a joke.  Passing balls sideways and backwards.   He needs to take responsibility for the ball.   About time certain fan favourites are called for average to low end shite, it seems the triple lock on pickford criticism is reducing after people are starting to realise that he isn't showing any signs of stopping the errors. 

Where we need to be a d want to be - players need to start showing accountability and some bottle. 

Gomes is struggling, think everyone can see that. We aren’t helping him though with the amount he is playing the responsibility he is carrying as our only half decent midfielder.

For all Ancelotti’s good - I think he got the formation with the players used so very wrong against Southampton.

I like the formation we used at the end, but the midfield 3 needs Gomes in it then so he isn’t doing the work with a 2 man midfield in a 442. Also the 3-5-2 Would have suited DCL and Richy better in my opinion getting onto crosses.

All opinions but we really are not helping ourselves right now.

[Hafnia]

18 minutes ago, Btay said:

Gomes is struggling, think everyone can see that. We aren’t helping him though with the amount he is playing the responsibility he is carrying as our only half decent midfielder.

For all Ancelotti’s good - I think he got the formation with the players used so very wrong against Southampton.

I like the formation we used at the end, but the midfield 3 needs Gomes in it then so he isn’t doing the work with a 2 man midfield in a 442. Also the 3-5-2 Would have suited DCL and Richy better in my opinion getting onto crosses.

All opinions but we really are not helping ourselves right now.

I don't think Ancellotti is going to set a midfield up like an allardyce or moyes...  getting numbers in etc. Call that being naive or whatever... I think he is setting the side up as he expects to with a winning team.  If certain players arent up to it then he will adjust accordingly as we have seen... but I don't think it's his ling term outlook and these players will likely be out. 

[markjazzbassist]

2 issues for me, he has no competition now, and we don't have a good partner.  Get a good DM to partner next year, and have a recharged Davies (yes tom) give him a fight at that position.  I think they are similar players for me pushing forward and trying to transition from defense to attack.  instead we have them both on the pitch and it doesn't work.  

[Btay]

8 hours ago, Hafnia said:

I don't think Ancellotti is going to set a midfield up like an allardyce or moyes...  getting numbers in etc. Call that being naive or whatever... I think he is setting the side up as he expects to with a winning team.  If certain players arent up to it then he will adjust accordingly as we have seen... but I don't think it's his ling term outlook and these players will likely be out. 

It’s but damned if you, damned if you don’t. I don’t think we have the midfield to play 442. 
 

We play most out footy with the keeper and centre backs until we smash it long, we lose the second ball because our cms are deep to try and collect of our cb’s who bar Holgate haven’t quite got the skills to pick passes out from our defensive third. Just all seems backwards to me.

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Btay said:

It’s but damned if you, damned if you don’t. I don’t think we have the midfield to play 442. 
 

We play most out footy with the keeper and centre backs until we smash it long, we lose the second ball because our cms are deep to try and collect of our cb’s who bar Holgate haven’t quite got the skills to pick passes out from our defensive third. Just all seems backwards to me.

Then the CBs and FBs need to dictate the line of defence and push the MFs up it’s their responsibility to, if way play to deep it is the defences fault they need to have the confidence and believe to hold a higher line when we are with or without the ball.

[markjazzbassist]

he's a good player, so is davies, i think they are very similar styles and aren't being helped by playing together.  Get a proper DM and then have Davies/Gomes rotate and fight it out for the starting spot and well see a lot better out of them.  we miss gana badly

[Bailey]

6 hours ago, Btay said:

It’s but damned if you, damned if you don’t. I don’t think we have the midfield to play 442. 
 

We play most out footy with the keeper and centre backs until we smash it long, we lose the second ball because our cms are deep to try and collect of our cb’s who bar Holgate haven’t quite got the skills to pick passes out from our defensive third. Just all seems backwards to me.

I agree with this. Its so frustrating seeing our CMs around the edge of our 18 yard box watching the ball go whistling 50 yards over their head. If you go back to Ferguson's time the whole squad pushed up and and we did really well in winning those 2nd balls and keeping the play in their half and not ours. 

I appreciate there is the intention to play the right way but its not possible with the players and formation being used at the moment.

 

[Btay]

35 minutes ago, Bailey said:

I agree with this. Its so frustrating seeing our CMs around the edge of our 18 yard box watching the ball go whistling 50 yards over their head. If you go back to Ferguson's time the whole squad pushed up and and we did really well in winning those 2nd balls and keeping the play in their half and not ours. 

I appreciate there is the intention to play the right way but its not possible with the players and formation being used at the moment.

 

Bang on.

[pete0]

8 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

he's a good player, so is davies, i think they are very similar styles and aren't being helped by playing together.  Get a proper DM and then have Davies/Gomes rotate and fight it out for the starting spot and well see a lot better out of them.  we miss gana badly

How many times has Michael Keane been left one on one since he left? 

If anything Gana would be football suicide in a 442. It relies on the two banks of 4 holding position when defending, and Gana would never be able to hold his concentration for the full 90. Just look at our biggest weakness in defence at the moment, Sidibe, and it's because he's got no positional awareness. He's only the right back, the damage would be 10 fold if you had a player that positionally poor in the middle. 

Gomes dips too far back to collect the ball and doesn't and get forward fast enough which ends up with us getting swarmed and pegged in our own half. Just playing long from goal kicks would be the simple solution for now. 

[Aidan]

9 hours ago, Bailey said:

I agree with this. Its so frustrating seeing our CMs around the edge of our 18 yard box watching the ball go whistling 50 yards over their head. If you go back to Ferguson's time the whole squad pushed up and and we did really well in winning those 2nd balls and keeping the play in their half and not ours. 

I appreciate there is the intention to play the right way but its not possible with the players and formation being used at the moment.

 

Dare I say Carlo seems to keep getting it wrong first half and adapting for the second. It's clear what our weaknesses are and he seems to keep trying to play the same way which isn't working. I don't know why, but he obviously must see this. 

[Matt]

11 hours ago, Aidan said:

Dare I say Carlo seems to keep getting it wrong first half and adapting for the second. It's clear what our weaknesses are and he seems to keep trying to play the same way which isn't working. I don't know why, but he obviously must see this. 

I’m pretty sure I’ve said it before, but these games are being treated as slightly more important preseason friendlies. He is using competitive games to test new formations, tactics, judge players knowing that there was nothing expected from this season when he signed on, take a point as a minimum goal, 3 ideally.

Seems to me like he is trying to lay basic foundations and identifying the next bit to organise with new tactics/players to which can be worked on after the season ends. All whilst keeping calm and patient. Big window ahead for sure though. 

[Bailey]

41 minutes ago, Matt said:

I’m pretty sure I’ve said it before, but these games are being treated as slightly more important preseason friendlies. He is using competitive games to test new formations, tactics, judge players knowing that there was nothing expected from this season when he signed on, take a point as a minimum goal, 3 ideally.

Seems to me like he is trying to lay basic foundations and identifying the next bit to organise with new tactics/players to which can be worked on after the season ends. All whilst keeping calm and patient. Big window ahead for sure though. 

With Europe and a fair bit of money and reputation on the line I would be pretty disappointed if that was the club or Ancelotti's view of these games. 

Furthermore if he wanted to test new formations, he should be playing them from the start and not switching to them when its going badly.

I would agree that he has clearly put a lot of work in on the training ground on shape and discipline and that he is using Gordon more and more to bed him in for next season. 

We need these games to bring some confidence to the group.

[Matt]

50 minutes ago, Bailey said:

With Europe and a fair bit of money and reputation on the line I would be pretty disappointed if that was the club or Ancelotti's view of these games. 

Furthermore if he wanted to test new formations, he should be playing them from the start and not switching to them when its going badly.

I would agree that he has clearly put a lot of work in on the training ground on shape and discipline and that he is using Gordon more and more to bed him in for next season. 

We need these games to bring some confidence to the group.

When he came in that’s wasn’t the case. The fact he brought the idea back into peoples minds just shows how good he is and I’m sure there were discussions along the lines of “hang on, we can talk about Europa now even if it’s a bit of a long shot”. But this season for Carlo was about steadying the boat, instilling some sense of discipline again and identifying his future plans for the players he wants and doesn’t.