Next Everton manager: the wisdom of TT.

[Bill]

What's plagiarising, I looked for his record and posted it. Is that wrong. ?

[MikeO]

4 minutes ago, Bill said:

What's plagiarising, I looked for his record and posted it. Is that wrong. ?

Of course not if you make clear you're posting stuff that someone else wrote. But you didn't.

[c1982]

23 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

You do realise why it's off don't you? The fans did the research the club should have done and found him to be a bit of a sexist prick and started a #NoToGattuso campaign.

I didn’t - that rules that one out then!

[Palfy]

The media seem to have gone a little quieter on who’s going to be our next manager, probably run out of names by now. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

14 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

How come Moyes couldn't do as well with Moyes' team?

Moyes had us regularly challenging for Europe and had to do it on a shoe string budget, put Lukaku or this DCL into one of his Everton teams or give him the kind of money every Everton manager has had since Moyes left and I’m convinced he would have got us silverware and probably qualified for the Champions League

Given all the managers that have tried and failed since he left and the fact we have only gone backwards since then I think it’s fair to say Moyes did in fact do well with Moyses ream

[barryj]

2 hours ago, Palfy said:

The media seem to have gone a little quieter on who’s going to be our next manager, probably run out of names by now. 

Having the weekend off as there’s so much to write about the shambles that was a England last night. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

https://www.goodisonnews.com/2021/06/19/guillem-balague-alisher-usmanov-wants-rafa-benitez-as-everton-boss/

[Wiggytop]

22 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Moyes had us regularly challenging for Europe and had to do it on a shoe string budget, put Lukaku or this DCL into one of his Everton teams or give him the kind of money every Everton manager has had since Moyes left and I’m convinced he would have got us silverware and probably qualified for the Champions League

Given all the managers that have tried and failed since he left and the fact we have only gone backwards since then I think it’s fair to say Moyes did in fact do well with Moyses ream

He did do well, but look at what happened when he went to Man U and money, he’s definitely a finder of bargains rather than managing big names, Soucek and Coufal being the latest two finds he’s made.

[Matt]

7 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

https://www.goodisonnews.com/2021/06/19/guillem-balague-alisher-usmanov-wants-rafa-benitez-as-everton-boss/

If that's the case, fuck his money. 

[Palfy]

Just finished reading on one football that Nuno at one point believed he was going to get the job, now he believes after days of hearing nothing from Everton he is out of the running. Looking more and more like we are getting Benitez. 

[Palfy]

17 minutes ago, Matt said:

If that's the case, fuck his money. 

A bit late for that now mate I fear we’ve sold our soul to the Moshiri Usmanov, its their playground now and they will do what they like with it. 

[Bailey]

1 hour ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Moyes had us regularly challenging for Europe and had to do it on a shoe string budget, put Lukaku or this DCL into one of his Everton teams or give him the kind of money every Everton manager has had since Moyes left and I’m convinced he would have got us silverware and probably qualified for the Champions League

Given all the managers that have tried and failed since he left and the fact we have only gone backwards since then I think it’s fair to say Moyes did in fact do well with Moyses ream

I'm not. We had Saha who was a quality footballer and we didn't improve. What Moyes did with that Everton side was as good as he was ever going to do with us.

The other thing to remember is that we had one of the bigger wage budgets in the league at that point. We might not have paid a lot in fees but the players themselves were paid well and that is a bigger indicator of league performance. 

The other point about Moyes that gets glossed over is that we started some of those seasons terribly. We did really well to get back into it and climb the table but our race was run by then and more often than not we were out of the cups after some terrible performances.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

46 minutes ago, Bailey said:

I'm not. We had Saha who was a quality footballer and we didn't improve. What Moyes did with that Everton side was as good as he was ever going to do with us.

The other thing to remember is that we had one of the bigger wage budgets in the league at that point. We might not have paid a lot in fees but the players themselves were paid well and that is a bigger indicator of league performance. 

The other point about Moyes that gets glossed over is that we started some of those seasons terribly. We did really well to get back into it and climb the table but our race was run by then and more often than not we were out of the cups after some terrible performances.

That is  complete bollocks which I’ve proven before, there will be a post somewhere in the archives where I went through the budget for every season he was here but can’t be star going through it all again

He has never had a big wage budget and we always finished well above the expected position v wage budget

What he did do was buy players who were very versatile and could cover several positions and this allowed him to have a much smaller squad so he could give the players he did have better wages

[Bailey]

44 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

That is  complete bollocks which I’ve proven before, there will be a post somewhere in the archives where I went through the budget for every season he was here but can’t be star going through it all again

He has never had a big wage budget and we always finished well above the expected position v wage budget

What he did do was buy players who were very versatile and could cover several positions and this allowed him to have a much smaller squad so he could give the players he did have better wages

I have just done some research and it isn't complete bollocks. Admittedly, it isn't as accurate as I thought it was but it isnt like he had a bottom of the table budget. Bar one year he has a top of the table budget which is makes it an above average budget and one of the bigger budgets.

What you find is that once you take off the top 4 or 5 there are a range of clubs spending a similar amount at least until you get up to around 2007 - 2008. At this point many more clubs start getting a bit of money and the top clubs pull away and the odd club starts throwing money around with various success. 

The info I have found is as follows:

2003 - finished 7th with a 13th budget but 7th was only 8mil more.

2004 - finished 17th with a 9th budget but 5th was only 5mil more.

2005 - finished 4th with a 10th budget but 6th was only 8mil more.

2006 - finished 11th with a 7th budget but 6th was only 4mil more.

2007 - finished 6th with an 8th budget but 5th was only 6mil more.

2008 - finished 5th with a 10th budget but 6th was only 10mil more.

2009 - finished 5th with a 10th budget.

2010 - finished 8th with a 7th budget.

2011 - finished 7th with an 8th budget.

2012 - finished 7th with a 9th budget but 6th was only 7mil more.

2013 - finished 6th with a 9th budget.

It is a damn site better than we have now though where we are still paying around 7th / 8th wages and finishing in the bottom half. The benefit Moyes had when the wages started to increase was that he already had a settled squad from the years before when the difference wasn't as significant. 

[Palfy]

2 hours ago, Bailey said:

I have just done some research and it isn't complete bollocks. Admittedly, it isn't as accurate as I thought it was but it isnt like he had a bottom of the table budget. Bar one year he has a top of the table budget which is makes it an above average budget and one of the bigger budgets.

What you find is that once you take off the top 4 or 5 there are a range of clubs spending a similar amount at least until you get up to around 2007 - 2008. At this point many more clubs start getting a bit of money and the top clubs pull away and the odd club starts throwing money around with various success. 

The info I have found is as follows:

2003 - finished 7th with a 13th budget but 7th was only 8mil more.

2004 - finished 17th with a 9th budget but 5th was only 5mil more.

2005 - finished 4th with a 10th budget but 6th was only 8mil more.

2006 - finished 11th with a 7th budget but 6th was only 4mil more.

2007 - finished 6th with an 8th budget but 5th was only 6mil more.

2008 - finished 5th with a 10th budget but 6th was only 10mil more.

2009 - finished 5th with a 10th budget.

2010 - finished 8th with a 7th budget.

2011 - finished 7th with an 8th budget.

2012 - finished 7th with a 9th budget but 6th was only 7mil more.

2013 - finished 6th with a 9th budget.

It is a damn site better than we have now though where we are still paying around 7th / 8th wages and finishing in the bottom half. The benefit Moyes had when the wages started to increase was that he already had a settled squad from the years before when the difference wasn't as significant. 

Is this purely wages. 

[Hafnia]

2 hours ago, Palfy said:

Is this purely wages. 

Yep.

I made this point about Moyes years ago.  

People were making out he was performing miracles on a shoe string.  From a transfer budget perspective yes he did... But the likes of Arteta, Saha,  Baines, Pienaar Neville etc etc were signed onto and retained by earning top dollar. 

The likes of Wigan had to let players go as soon as their weekly wage potential grew to £50k a week. 

 

[Zoo 2.0]

8 hours ago, Matt said:

If that's the case, fuck his money. 

I wouldn't worry, Balgue seems a really nice guy and understands football well, but as a reporter he just seems to spout whatever comes into his head as opposed to what's actually going on in the real world.

[StevO]

6 hours ago, Bailey said:

I have just done some research and it isn't complete bollocks. Admittedly, it isn't as accurate as I thought it was but it isnt like he had a bottom of the table budget. Bar one year he has a top of the table budget which is makes it an above average budget and one of the bigger budgets.

What you find is that once you take off the top 4 or 5 there are a range of clubs spending a similar amount at least until you get up to around 2007 - 2008. At this point many more clubs start getting a bit of money and the top clubs pull away and the odd club starts throwing money around with various success. 

The info I have found is as follows:

2003 - finished 7th with a 13th budget but 7th was only 8mil more.

2004 - finished 17th with a 9th budget but 5th was only 5mil more.

2005 - finished 4th with a 10th budget but 6th was only 8mil more.

2006 - finished 11th with a 7th budget but 6th was only 4mil more.

2007 - finished 6th with an 8th budget but 5th was only 6mil more.

2008 - finished 5th with a 10th budget but 6th was only 10mil more.

2009 - finished 5th with a 10th budget.

2010 - finished 8th with a 7th budget.

2011 - finished 7th with an 8th budget.

2012 - finished 7th with a 9th budget but 6th was only 7mil more.

2013 - finished 6th with a 9th budget.

It is a damn site better than we have now though where we are still paying around 7th / 8th wages and finishing in the bottom half. The benefit Moyes had when the wages started to increase was that he already had a settled squad from the years before when the difference wasn't as significant. 

Seems like Moyes over achieved his budget almost every year then?

[Bailey]

1 hour ago, StevO said:

Seems like Moyes over achieved his budget almost every year then?

Yeh if you lined them all up from 1 to 20, I think he only finished below it on 3 years out of 11. 

If you took a more general view he finished in the position you would expect. That isn't meant to sound like a slight, it isn't an easy thing to do as we are showing now.

In hindsight I think he biggest feat was keeping us in those positions when the big money started coming into the league. At one stage it was Chelsea spending big but by 2007-8 the top 4 or 5 were all spending simimar sums and some pretenders were having a good go as well.

[Palfy]

7 minutes ago, Bailey said:

Yeh if you lined them all up from 1 to 20, I think he only finished below it on 3 years out of 11. 

If you took a more general view he finished in the position you would expect. That isn't meant to sound like a slight, it isn't an easy thing to do as we are showing now.

In hindsight I think he biggest feat was keeping us in those positions when the big money started coming into the league. At one stage it was Chelsea spending big but by 2007-8 the top 4 or 5 were all spending simimar sums and some pretenders were having a good go as well.

Are you still talking wages bill here or transfers or both, I’m getting slightly confused, because we were for a long time under Moyes one of the team’s that had the smallest transfer budget for years. Also we were a selling club under Moyes, not only did he have to contend with very little money to spend he had to over come players been sold, yet without the need for a DoF he brought players in for little money and made sure they left for big money, yet still managed to keep us in the hunt for top 6 finish, I find it rich after what we’ve witnessed in the last 5 years with the money spent the managers we’ve had the DoF, that people would consider Moyes in someway a failure in the time he was with us and the restraints he had to work with. 

[Cornish Steve]

On 18/06/2021 at 15:58, Cornish Steve said:

How come Moyes couldn't do as well with Moyes' team?

My remark was a little flippant, but it remains true. We did better in Martinez' first season than in Moyes' final season with maybe 80% the same squad.

On 18/06/2021 at 17:57, Bill said:

Moyes guided Everton to  7th, 17th, 4th, 11th, 6th, 5th, 5th, 8th, 7th, 7th, 6th and 5th.  He gave a club back its pride.

My sense is that David Moyes set moderate expectations and usually managed to exceed them, which is good management. When presented with a big occasion, though, he was way too cautious. His goal seemed to be to be among the better bunch of also-rans.

15 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Moyes had us regularly challenging for Europe and had to do it on a shoe string budget, put Lukaku or this DCL into one of his Everton teams or give him the kind of money every Everton manager has had since Moyes left and I’m convinced he would have got us silverware and probably qualified for the Champions League

I would point out that the available budget remained pretty much the same until Moshiri came along. So what's the real difference between Moyes and Martinez?

Moyes was superb at finding diamonds in the rough, I confess, which he blended with average players to build a solid team. As someone else pointed out, when he was given money at United he didn't quite know how to spend it.

Martinez, on the other hand, faced with the same budget constraints, was a risk taker. With Lukaku and Barry, it paid off handsomely. With Niasse and McGeady, for example, the move failed. I have no idea how he would cope if handed a larger budget.

[Bill]

So now you agree with all that we are saying, which was the complete opposite of your original post. !!

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

4 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

My remark was a little flippant, but it remains true. We did better in Martinez' first season than in Moyes' final season with maybe 80% the same squad.

My sense is that David Moyes set moderate expectations and usually managed to exceed them, which is good management. When presented with a big occasion, though, he was way too cautious. His goal seemed to be to be among the better bunch of also-rans.

I would point out that the available budget remained pretty much the same until Moshiri came along. So what's the real difference between Moyes and Martinez?

Moyes was superb at finding diamonds in the rough, I confess, which he blended with average players to build a solid team. As someone else pointed out, when he was given money at United he didn't quite know how to spend it.

Martinez, on the other hand, faced with the same budget constraints, was a risk taker. With Lukaku and Barry, it paid off handsomely. With Niasse and McGeady, for example, the move failed. I have no idea how he would cope if handed a larger budget.

I think that is another Toffetalk myth, part of the problem for him at United was that they didn’t back him financially , he tried to sign Toni Kroos , Gareth Bale Cesc Fabregas and of course Leighton Baines but the United money men couldn’t get the deals over the line so he only ended up getting Juan Mata and Fellaini on deadline day who I think it’s fair to say both went on to prove to be good signings for them

 

[Zoo 2.0]

25 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

I think that is another Toffetalk myth, part of the problem for him at United was that they didn’t back him financially, he tried to sign Toni Kroos , Gareth Bale Cesc Fabregas and of course Leighton Baines but the United money men couldn’t get the deals over the line so he only ended up getting Juan Mata and Fellaini on deadline day who I think it’s fair to say both went on to prove to be good signings for them

Moyes made several mistakes at Manchester United, but he wasn't entirely at fault. He tried to sign the players mentioned and as you say, it's well documented that the board just didn't do enough to get things over the line - he ended up with just Fellaini after the summer (as I believe Mata came in the January transfer window?). He also had Wilfried Zaha as a leaving present from SAF, but as we all know he's only decent when surrounded by mediocrity.

I must stress that IMO Moyes did most of the damage himself, but it wasn't as though he had the full backing from the United hierarchy.

[c1982]

I’d say David Gill leaving was one of the biggest factors for Moyes’ United ‘failure’ - he played such a key role in the running of the club and to be replaced by that clown Woodward didn’t help at all.

[c1982]

Us being linked with Doherty and Coady if Nuno comes, scares me. I wouldn’t mind Nuno but signing average players with little or no resale value is what has got us into this mess - it’s the last thing we need.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

12 hours ago, Hafnia said:

Yep.

I made this point about Moyes years ago.  

People were making out he was performing miracles on a shoe string.  From a transfer budget perspective yes he did... But the likes of Arteta, Saha,  Baines, Pienaar Neville etc etc were signed onto and retained by earning top dollar. 

The likes of Wigan had to let players go as soon as their weekly wage potential grew to £50k a week. 

 

Yes you did and were just as wrong then as you are now. It’s been proven again that his wage budget was pretty much mid table. The club were able to offer those players good wages because of the squad Moyes built. As I said he brought in versatile players in able to have a smaller squad and so have more money in the pot to pay the players he did have, coupled with the fact the budget was increased by him turning over major profits in the transfer market that makes for good management me thinks

Also you are way too dismissive of the constrains he was under with regards to his transfer budget, it’s all well and good offering a top player £50k a week to come to Everton but if you can’t afford the transfer fee it’s a bit of a moot point anyway

Personally even though I would have him over Rafa I didn’t really want him back because he burnt his bridges in the manner he left and the way he handled the chase of Baines and Fellaini  but to carry on trying to rewrite history to belittle his achievements while he was at the club is nonsensical to me ( that’s aimed at all the Moyes badgers by the way )

[Hafnia]

1 hour ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Yes you did and were just as wrong then as you are now. It’s been proven again that his wage budget was pretty much mid table. The club were able to offer those players good wages because of the squad Moyes built. As I said he brought in versatile players in able to have a smaller squad and so have more money in the pot to pay the players he did have, coupled with the fact the budget was increased by him turning over major profits in the transfer market that makes for good management me thinks

Also you are way too dismissive of the constrains he was under with regards to his transfer budget, it’s all well and good offering a top player £50k a week to come to Everton but if you can’t afford the transfer fee it’s a bit of a moot point anyway

Personally even though I would have him over Rafa I didn’t really want him back because he burnt his bridges in the manner he left and the way he handled the chase of Baines and Fellaini  but to carry on trying to rewrite history to belittle his achievements while he was at the club is nonsensical to me ( that’s aimed at all the Moyes badgers by the way )

I'd have Moyes over Rafa.  As managers go he is the more likely to be honourable - despite more or less agreeing to move to United whilst managing us and his conduct over Baines.

Im not going to lose sight of the fact that he's basically a "safe pair of hands" manager..... Fine if you want to hover around Europa to mid-table but he is not a trophy winner.  Completely lacks the killer instinct in games which you need to get silverware.

We can look at his unite tenure in all sorts of excuses but the reality is that he took a league winning team and tried to get them to play like Everton.  Anyone recall the record number of crosses into the box against Fulham for Van Persie to try and win against zat knight knight.

he was the 4th highest paid manager in world football for us ..... Nothing more than a glorified fire fighter. Yeah sure I identified with his team and style if discipline more than I would give credit for but our record against the top 4 and zero trophies in 10+ years is crap 

 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

28 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

I'd have Moyes over Rafa.  As managers go he is the more likely to be honourable - despite more or less agreeing to move to United whilst managing us and his conduct over Baines.

Im not going to lose sight of the fact that he's basically a "safe pair of hands" manager..... Fine if you want to hover around Europa to mid-table but he is not a trophy winner.  Completely lacks the killer instinct in games which you need to get silverware.

We can look at his unite tenure in all sorts of excuses but the reality is that he took a league winning team and tried to get them to play like Everton.  Anyone recall the record number of crosses into the box against Fulham for Van Persie to try and win against zat knight knight.

he was the 4th highest paid manager in world football for us ..... Nothing more than a glorified fire fighter. Yeah sure I identified with his team and style if discipline more than I would give credit for but our record against the top 4 and zero trophies in 10+ years is crap 

 

Think that’s the point though, he never had the money to go out an get a top class CF that we needed to break through that glass ceiling . I’m convinced if he had Lukaku he would have won something and the fact remains we have been in decline ever since he left. Ok Martinez had one good season, on the back of Moyses defence, but that soon unravelled

Agree though that there is no going back after the way he  ran his contract down knowing he had the United job on the table and even more so after the comments he made about the club holding back Baines & Fellaini, much worse than Rafa’s small club jibe for me

[Hafnia]

33 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Think that’s the point though, he never had the money to go out an get a top class CF that we needed to break through that glass ceiling . I’m convinced if he had Lukaku he would have won something and the fact remains we have been in decline ever since he left. Ok Martinez had one good season, on the back of Moyses defence, but that soon unravelled

Agree though that there is no going back after the way he  ran his contract down knowing he had the United job on the table and even more so after the comments he made about the club holding back Baines & Fellaini, much worse than Rafa’s small club jibe for me

Not convinced on the Lukaku / Moyes relationship tbh.    Lukaku would have hated the demands of Moyes and Moyes would not have tolerates Lukakus indifference to workrate. 

We seen this with Yakubu.  Moyes loves a hard grafter up front to help the attacking mids get chances.